Anyone feel for Lina Lamont? - Singin' in the Rain (1952) Discussion

[–] dmnemaine 13 years ago

Lina Lamont cared only about Lina Lamont. That was made very clear right from the beginning of the film. The only reason that she was mean to Kathy Seldon was because she couldn't stand the fact that he would throw her over for another woman. There isn't really much sympathetic about Lina at all. And aren't you sort of mixing the fantasy of the film with reality? It is ironic that Debbie's voice was not used when Kathy was supposedly singing and speaking for Lina. That, however, has nothing to do with the characters in the film and their motivations.

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[–] murph24 13 years ago

And the weird thing was that Don hadn't even thrown Lina over; they'd never been a couple to start with. It was simply one of Lina's delusions.

Naturally one feels sorry that Lina's days as a leading lady are numbered, but (unlike the film's other main characters) she's vindictive and mean-spirited. She has Kathy fired from her job at the Coconut Grove, then tries to wreck her career at the studio. And why? Because Don loves Kathy and doesn't love Lina. She does destructive and hateful things, but Jean Hagen is so much fun in the part that the character becomes entertaining - and still retains its edge. The audience hates Lina, but they love hating her. And that's what makes Hagen's performance such a triumph.

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[–] dmnemaine 13 years ago

It's surprising that Jean Hagen didn't become a bigger star. She had the looks and the talent.

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[–] TANSD76 11 years ago

I think you're forgetting what their relationship is like from Lina's point of view. She sees Don talking to one of the entertainers at a party and then the girl throws a cake in her face. Getting her fired after than doesn't seem that unreasonable. Her hitting Lina was only an "innocent mistake" if you take into account that she was aiming for Don. Either way it was highly unprofessional. Then, she finds out that while she's been putting all this work in with a dialect coach and recording all her lines and songs, everyone at the studio has been conspiring to keep her in the dark about Kathy's involvement. So she's both insulted that they don't think her voice is good enough and that they want to make a fool out of her in front of everyone by saying that she doesn't have the speaking or singing voice necessary for an actress. They are about to kill her career. Yes, it is terrible that she wants to keep Kathy as her speaking voice and never allow her a career of her own. But from her perspective, she's been attacked and needs to look out for her own interests.

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[–] murph24 11 years ago

I think you're forgetting what their relationship is like from Lina's point of view.

I think you're forgetting that screenwriters Comden & Green made it clear in Lina's first dialogue scene that she and Don have no relationship whatsoever. From the first moment she opens her mouth, it's obvious Lina is a delusional individual whose perception of reality is highly questionable; her behavior throughout the film reflects this. She may have her own perspective, but it's a severely distorted one.

No one said Lina can't be an actress any longer; she'd have no problem playing hat-check girls or gum-chewing waitresses. But there's no question her days of playing refined, cultured noblewomen are over; her voice simply makes that impossible. And in a way, her inability to recognize this fact makes her character touchingly naive. However, it doesn't excuse any of her actions, which are uniformly loathsome.

And this is what makes her such a rich, unforgettable character; it's also why Jean Hagen made such an impact playing her. Lina is practically the musical comedy equivalent of a Shakespearean villain, and Hagen invests her with unapologetic (and delicious) evil.

LINA: People? I ain't people! I am a "shimmering, glowing star in the cinema firmament." It says so - right there.

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 13 years ago

I didn't feel sorry for her. I spent my time laughing at her and wanting her to mess up further for the lulz.

Moments of perfection,
idle in the sunshine

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[–] Harold_Robbins 13 years ago

"It's surprising that Jean Hagen didn't become a bigger star. She had the looks and the talent."

True - she added something special to every film she appeared in. Maybe if she'd won the Oscar for her performance as Lina Lamont things might have gone differently, but somehow it went to Gloria Grahame for THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL - sorry, but in my opinion one of Oscar's greatest mistakes.

"In my case, self-absorption is completely justified."

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[–] marktayloruk 12 years ago

I think she also had health problems.

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[–] Cosmonican 9 years ago

She quit after the first three seasons of "Make Room for Daddy", playing the mother, Danny Thomas's wife.

Producers, and casting directors don't like that. It was then, and still is, a bad career move.

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[–] HarlowMGM 13 years ago

Lina is kind of mean, to be sure, but she's so hilariously dumb she's quite endearing I have to confess I've always hated the way they deliberately humilate her at the end and she runs off the stage in shame. What they did to her was nastier than any of Lina's stunts. Such an ugly ending for poor Lina who the movie unintentionally perhaps makes too lovable by being too funny - Jean Hagen sure got the last laugh by the only member of the cast to be Oscar nominated for the movie though.

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[–] Eightythreeyearoldguy 13 years ago

Jean Hagen's nomination was well deserved. It's natural that the Oscar was given for a dramatic performance...musical and comical performances seldom win Oscars. And many times, winning the Oscar appears to be a curse rather than a bonus.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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[–] shandy8 13 years ago

I always love your posts, Harlow, and this is no exception. I agree; they could have handled it better. It is R.F.'s fault for being so weak. Jean Hagen's performance is gold!

"What do you want me to do, draw a picture? Spell it out!"

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[–] whitelion43 13 years ago

Harlow,Youn seem to have forgotten that seconds earlier Lina was trying to take over the studio and in the scene before trumped R.F's(her boss) plans by saying She not Kathy did all the singing and danceing. Maybe if she wasn'r so insistant on singing at the end,it would been better. but Lina confessing thAT Kathy did all the voice work wasn't "in character" for her(confessing would have had things go better for her)
Oh GOOD!,my dog found the chainsaw

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[–] katiewon 12 years ago

I can't feel sorry for Lina...first of all, she is a diva. She wants to play tough but doesn't have the intelligence to back it up. She reaped what she sowed, so to speak.

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[–] ziggystar86 9 years ago

How can you feel sorry for her there are you serious, I did in the beginning but not after she is forcing Kathy to give up her own career for 5 years for her, how would you feel if someone did that to you, I would kill that bitch.

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[–] There_Is_No_Sayid 12 years ago

Exactly. What did Lina do that was so bad? Hector Don about their non existent romance? Expect people to treat her like the big talent star she was? Try to protect her career from people who were out to destroy it?

"Unless Alpert's covered in bacon grease, I don't think Hugo can track anything."

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[–] murph24 12 years ago

What did Lina do that was so bad?

1. She got Kathy FIRED from the Coconut Grove.

2. She tried to deny Kathy a screen credit for dubbing her voice.

3. She tried to wreck Kathy's career at the studio by making her a permanent voice double - and nothing else.

In addition, we see her treat Don rudely (that is, until she learns Don is going to be her new leading man). There's no question that Jean Hagen was brilliant as Lina Lamont - but the character, as written, is a nasty piece of work.

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[–] TANSD76 11 years ago

1. Kathy threw a cake in her face.

2. A dub which was done without her consent or knowledge and which would have made her a laughingstock.

3. Point taken. Obviously, this is where her behavior escalates.

Don tries to shake her hand after doing a stunt where he ends up covered in soot and debris from an explosion.

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[–] murph24 11 years ago

Kathy threw a cake in her face.

And this was purely an accident, as the cake being thrown was meant for Don. On the other hand, Lina doesn't try to ruin Kathy's career by "accident" - she does it knowingly and maliciously.

A dub which was done without her consent or knowledge and which would have made her a laughingstock.

And if the dub hadn't taken place, Lina would have become a laughingstock anyway - and it would have happened the moment the Dueling Cavalier was released and audiences heard her real voice. There's no getting around the fact that Lina's days as a cultured, sophisticated leading lady were over the moment talkies came into existence.

Don tries to shake her hand after doing a stunt where he ends up covered in soot and debris from an explosion.

And the reason Don is shunned by Lina is because he's a stunt man, not because he's covered in soot. A split-second later, when Lina realizes Don is going to be her new leading man, she shows no aversion to soot and takes him by the arm - all of which makes it clear Lina is a snob who looks down on people she doesn't consider her equal.

No matter how you spin it, Lina is a rotten person, because that's exactly how Comden and Green wrote her. She's also an entertaining and unforgettable character played brilliantly by Jean Hagen.

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[–] TANSD76 11 years ago

I posted a more detailed response earlier in this thread. But my point is basically that I do see Lina's perspective. She's not just a "rotten person". Is she looking out for her own interests? Of course. But so is everyone else.

Throwing a cake in someone's face by accident because you were aiming at another person still strikes me as incredibly unprofessional and grounds for being fired.

My point about the dub is that Lina is retaliating for a perceived slight. She feels like she's being attacked, so she attacks back.

Or maybe she shunned him because he had just finished a stunt and then after hearing that he was going to star with her in a picture she decided that they should really try and get along.

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[–] murph24 11 years ago

Throwing a cake in someone's face by accident because you were aiming at another person still strikes me as incredibly unprofessional and grounds for being fired.

The point is, Kathy wasn't going to be fired until Lina insisted upon it. Having a cake thrown at you is unfortunate, but it's not comparable in any way to losing your job & being unable to pay your bills. And that's what Lina does; she's one of the highest paid women in Hollywood, but she makes sure a lowly chorus girl gets fired - and after that, she GLOATS over what she's done. That's pretty contemptible behavior, and it's the first time Don (and the audience) see how vindictive and mean-spirited Lina actually is.

And let's not forget the cake is only a pretext; the real reason Lina is out to get Kathy is because Don likes her.

Or maybe she shunned him because he had just finished a stunt and then after hearing that he was going to star with her in a picture she decided that they should really try and get along.

Based on the way Lina acts throughout the film (she doesn't feel Cosmo is "anybody" because he only plays the piano), it's clear that she's an enormous snob, and the "stunt man" scene with Don only reinforces this.

During the period when the Singin' In The Rain script was being written, the characters of Don, Cosmo and Kathy were tweaked to make them nicer and more likable. The character who went through almost no change was Lina; even in the earliest stages she was the film's unmistakable villain, someone who manipulated people toward her own selfish aims. Once again, this is how the screenwriters and filmmakers conceived the character; this is how Lina was meant to be. Jean Hagen was unquestionably great, but there was never a doubt Lina was anything but rotten.

It's all in the book Singin' In The Rain: The Making of an American Masterpiece by Hess and Dabholkar.

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[–] TANSD76 11 years ago

Well, I don't think we'll agree on this but I still maintain that in my opinion, Lina had a point. I think Good News makes the rival more explicitly mercenary and meanspirited and is helped by the fact that Peter Lawford and June Allyson have much more chemistry than Gene Kelly and Debbie Reynolds.

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[–] murph24 11 years ago

The great movie villains of that time, if they weren't murderers, were either throwing people out of work or out of their houses. And here's how the audience saw Lina behaving (and this was BEFORE her career was threatened) -

DON: But you didn't lose your job, and she did.

LINA: Darn tootin' she did; l arranged it.

DON: What?

LINA: They weren't gonna fire her, so I called them up and told them they better.

Outside of being incredibly vindictive, I don't see any "point" to Lina's actions; she's just a vengeful, petty individual. And it's to Jean Hagen's great credit that the character is so much fun to watch; Lina is light-years more entertaining than someone like Pat McClellan in Good News.

And personally, I don't think the chemistry between the other stars has any bearing whatsoever on Lina's actions, which are reprehensible.

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[–] stevenackerman69 13 years ago

She only cared about herself, period. She didn't try to understand other people's points of view and that they were trying to help her with the dubbing. It was supposed to save the film. She didn't care and ended up paying the price. I had no problem with that.

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[–] FranLovesBetteD 12 years ago

Jean Hagen and her "Lina Lamont" are the only reasons why I watch this movie every once in a while. She was beyond great, and I'm always rooting for her while watching "Singin' in the Rain"!

Jean was an amazing actress and did such a wonderful job in it, and I even loved the voice she adopted for the character. In movies like "Dead Ringer", you can notice the beautiful, sexy, deep voice she had in real life. No doubt she was quite versatile, and no wonder she was nominated for an Academy Award! She should have gotten that Oscar, that's for sure.

I like Debbie Reynolds very much, but in this movie I'm on Jean's side all the time! Besides, I hate the way Gene Kelly and everybody else treat "Lina", and the same can be said regarding "An American in Paris", in which he's also a true jerk to Nina Foch's character.

Animal crackers in my soup
Monkeys and rabbits loop the loop

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[–] There_Is_No_Sayid 12 years ago

Well apparently Gene Kelly was a big jerk in real life.

It makes me want to see someone do a movie about Lina Lamont's side of the story.

"Unless Alpert's covered in bacon grease, I don't think Hugo can track anything."

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[–] ultimatelotrcrossover 10 years ago

They did, it's called All About Eve.

Yeah, I don't know why we're supposed to hate Lina from the first because she didn't cozy up to a stuntman, but we're supposed to love Kathy from the first after she repeatedly insults Don.

As for the cake thing, Kathy committed assault and battery and if I'd been the recipient, I would have pressed charges. I also can't believe the Lina would have had to pull strings to get Kathy fired, since no business would keep an employee on the payroll after assaulting a customer.

Viva Lina!

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[–] snsurone 9 years ago

Assault and battery?
Are you SERIOUS???
If Lina pressed charges for that, she'd have been laughed out of court, and it doesn't matter that she was a major movie star.

Besides, the publicity might have helped Kathy; perhaps RF (who was secretly sick of Lina's diva behavior) would have hired her earlier than he did.
Not that it mattered; Kathy's agent did get her a few chorus jobs in clubs and early musical movies.

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[–] marktayloruk 12 years ago

I agree-I do feel a bit sorry for her.I oppose dubbing in anything but biopics on principle.

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[–] There_Is_No_Sayid 12 years ago

Eh, I mean sometimes the best actor isn't a good singer. A good example of where they should have dubbed was the musical episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In that ep a demon casts a spell which means people randomly break into song. Well Sarah Michelle Gellar, the star of the show admitted that she was a terrible singer and originally wanted them to dub her parts but changed her mind when she read the songs and realized that they contained some of the big emotional moments for her character that season. Well, she was right, she's a terrible singer and it would have been better dubbed.

"Unless Alpert's covered in bacon grease, I don't think Hugo can track anything."

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[–] good-35 12 years ago

Lina will be all right. She has more money than Calvin Coolidge put together.

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[–] snsurone 11 years ago

Yeah, but I bet she lost it all in the stock market crash of 1929.

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[–] StarskyandChinaHutch 11 years ago

Well, I hope she learned a valuable lesson in humility and whatever. It's not as if she didn't actually have any acting talent whatsoever, so given the right opportunity (and with an improved attitude to match), who's to say Ms. Lamont didn't make a glorious destiny-defying comeback some sunny day?

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[–] marktayloruk (2384) 2 years ago

Maybe as a comedienne?

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