MIRACLE OF THE SUN - The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima (1952) Discussion

[–] catgirl667 17 years ago

I agree that this was, in fact, a miracle. My only question is, why doesn't anybody make a bigger deal out of this?? Shouldn't this be in history books?

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[–] attitude_070 17 years ago

My mom is actually very close to Fatima, she grew up about 40km from there. Every year she would walk there with groups of people on the anniversary of the apparation. People walk to Fatima from all over Portugal to be there on that day. I have the honour and the priviledge to say that I have a prayer card that was given to my family and I by a family friend of ours, that was given to him by Lucia herself. I'll cherish it forever.

I also wish that this occurence was more spoken of. I think a lot of people undermine it and it really upsets me, especially when non-Catholics deny that it ever happened. I agree 100% with ajr01, there are too many coincidences for this to be something made-up by the children. It was nothing short of a miracle... I truly believe this.

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[–] Sarpedon99 17 years ago

I think there is definitely something mysterious behind the whole thing, and the evidence does seem to weigh heavily in favor of this being a manifestation of the BVM, but one can never be too sure. I think many people dismiss it for the simple fact that it doesn't conform with their wordly views, and in some cases borders on being a threat. Not very objective of them, is it?

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[–] atheismyes 16 years ago

The reason this well-documented miracle isn't in the history books is because of anti-Catholic bigotry.
Soviet involvement in 1981 assassination attempt on the Pope is considered a fulfillment of a Fatima prophecy.

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[–] jsrrtzjr10 12 years ago

Because it never happened. Astronomers then didn't see anything "funny" that day.

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[–] Molly-31 17 years ago

People looking for this have to keep in mind that what the people saw at Fatima wasn't the sun. Astronomers and geologists reported nothing out of the ordinary. If the earth had moved in such a way to make the sun look like it was dancing or falling, we wouldn't be here talking about it. People said it was a silver disk that was easy to look at.

My guess is that it was a plasma phenomenon. (There is nothing to say that Mary didn't arrange/ take advantage of this -- and it would be still miraculous in that there was no geologic activity to account for a plasmoid. There was, however, a small extinct volcanic crater near the Cova, and plasma activity is known to occur near volcanoes, I think even extinct ones sometimes.) The little "petals" that fell from the sky at one of the apparitions are also characteristic of plasma activity.) Another interesting fact is that the rays of colored light which overswept the crowd immediately preceding the "solar dance" had also occurred on the day the children were kidnapped. Many witnesses reported these lights along with the characteristic cloud of light floating down to the tree, then away.

I'll give you one very good reason it isn't publicized more. Many other people have claimed Marian visitations since Fatima (see the Wikipedia article linked from the Solar Miracle one). Note that I don't disbelieve in all of them, but some of them seem to have been hoaxes and in at least one case, seems to have started out as a kind of practical joke that was unexpectedly taken seriously. In many of these later claimed visitations, especially those reported after this movie came out, onlookers have stared at the sun hoping to see something similar. People have seriously damaged their eyes. Certain elements of the Catholic Charismatic movement actually encourage this behavior, along with reports of things like silver rosary chains turning to gold -- a flashy, materialistic "miracle" that as a Catholic I feel doesn't sound like Mary's kind of thing.

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[–] The-Patient-Man 17 years ago

OF COURSE IT IS A LIE!

It has been a lie all this time. The only reason why the so-called "miracle" happenned, is to gain profits from exploring people's faith every single year, over the last century.

Let me tell you something. I am from Portugal, and unfortunately I have been to Fatima a couple of times when I was a kid. That is an authentic lie, from top to bottom.

The only reason why it shouldn't be banned is because we have lots of people with a lot of faith on Catolicism and they would never accept that the "miracle" never really existed. They are too blinded on their fanatism for the religion.

People need to believe in something, and the Church has found a[nother] great way to explore that faith in people's eyes.

There was no miracle, there is no Fatima, there were no apparitions. All there existed was people's fertile imagination and their need to believe in something during the fascist years.

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[–] attitude_070 17 years ago

The-patient-Man.. I feel really sorry for you. Unfortunately some Portuguese people think like you.. but FORTUNATELY it's a minority. I won't even comment on your post because just by looking at your grammar I can tell you're not the brightest bulb. I think you meant "exploiting" rather than "exploring" peoples faith. "Explorar" in the sense of exploiting in Portuguese doesn't translate into "exploring" in English, sorry! lol

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[–] The-Patient-Man 17 years ago

lol

A minority?
How old are you, honestly?
Because, unless you are above 65 (which explains your lack of knowledge), then there has got to be another explanation for the sense of majority that you feel when talking about Fatima.

I don't blame you for believing in miracles. You can believe what you want and nobody's got the right to deny your view. But when you talk about majority in religion and the whole Fatima thing, then I start to doubt on your mental sanity.

If you really feel that majority on the support of religion in OUR country, then I am afraid I feel the obligation to advise you to OPEN YOUR EYES. Something that never occured to you all this time, maybe because it is impossible to think logically when we believe in things that are not reasonable..

I would respect you much more if you had said that Fatima is good in terms of faith and self-esteem (bla bla bla and all that crap). But you just keep telling me about the truth of the so-called "miracle", DENYING everything else. Look at your position: you are denying the most probable truth just because you WANT to believe the miracle has happenned. It's the only way your theory makes sense, so it's quite logical that you think likewise.

Ah.. and about my grammar. Give me a break. Is english your native-language? No it isn't. So maybe you should stop fooling around with that kind of stupidity, it only makes you absurd.

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[–] daddyd-2 16 years ago

When you consider that 80% of the population in this country alone DO believe in God, then believing in miracles should only be a part of that belief. I believe in God and I am not catholic but I do believe that what those children saw was something or someone from Heaven. They had no reason to make it up and they were too young to conjure up something that is considered far fetched.

Your doubts are regrettable but accepted. I do, however, find your insults lacking in substance. If you have chosen to not believe in God or miracles or Heaven above, that is your choice and your eternity, not anyone else's. To doubt miracles of the Almighty is to doubt the Almighty Himself. I suggest you keep your non beliefs to yourself before you find the sun falling on you.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Molly-31 17 years ago

I am extremely interested in what you say here. Can you give more details as to how the hoax was perpetuated and what really happened?

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[–] The-Patient-Man 17 years ago

It's not a big thing, really. It's quite simple.

The "so-called" miracle happenned on May 13th 1917: Portugal had just come out of monarchy and the republic wasn't really settled, politically everything was tremendously unstable. Moreover, this was in the middle of World War I. Another thing: almost everyone lived miserably, the country wasn't developing in an adequate rythm and unhappyness and loss of faith were spread all over the country. Last thing: the Church still dominated a significant part of the society AND yes... you can talk about brainwashing people's heads, not in a evil way (as torture) but think of it as inserting supposed-facts in children and insist on them during all their lives - that's how Church works.

Having this into account, it is logical to assume the Fatima thing was and has always been an illusion. Come on! Let's face it: 3 kids were guarding their sheep (or whatever) and they saw something in the sky that:
(1) never had happenned before in History
(2) by an enormous coincidence, it was something that they were told to believe in.

By tradition, Portugal is a Catholic country, just like all southern europe countries. It began a lot of centuries ago. And until the last few decades, virtually all families believed in Catholicism and in the Fatima "miracle". It's some kind of tradition: people are born, and people die, but the religion thing is always present.

So, you can call it what you want: legend, myth, story, bla bla bla.. Just don't call it a miracle. It doesn't make ANY sense.

People are FREE to follow a religion and have faith, I just can't accept the fact that they believe in these kind of things. If I wasn't explicit, then I beg to be answered these two simple questions:

1 - What is more worthy of credit: 3 little kids that saw some light in the sky and related it to the funny story their grandma told them every single day about someone called Fatima that would take care of them when they died.. OR the philosophical theories about religion that don't match this sight of them?
I mean.. are we really supost to deny 2500 years of philosophical thought just to believe in 3 kids that never really explained the story straight?

2 - What is more likely to happen: an illusion or the appearance of some... mother of Jesus? You don't even know wether Jesus exists or not!

Things are this simple: religion was made for people believe in something, for giving them faith on something. That is natural. Everything else is some kind of a metaphor: the cute stories you listen your grandma saying when you were a kid are fantasy. They are just used to make people get commited to society in a conformist and respectable way.

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[–] Molly-31 17 years ago

Thank you, but I still want to see material proof that it didn't happen. What you're giving me here is more like a common-sense or rational explanation. Just because something is unlikely to happen doesn't mean it can't.

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[–] The-Patient-Man 17 years ago

Ok.. But how can someone actually prove that it did not happen?
It's not me who has to prove it didn't happen. Believers should prove that it did.
Why? Because it is absurd to think it did happen, unless there is some material proof (which there isn't).

So, I ask again, which is more credible: rational explanations or 3 little kids with hallucinations?

I can give you these facts: of the 3 kids, 2 of them died somewhere around 1920 but one remained alive: that's Sister Lucia. She died a few years ago. She was the only one guarding the "3 secrets of Fatima" which was some other crap made up to make people commit to religion. Of those 3 secrets, one was pretty obvious and the other 2 were revealed after they happenned (quite convenient, han?).
Lucia was kept "locked up" in Fatima Sanctuary for all these years until her death, only to avoid her contact with the "exterior world". I say this is quite mad stuff from fundamentalistic people.
More: every year, on the May 13th, thousands of people gather in Fatima for the Holy Graces or whatever they call it. Fatima is like a small Vatican City: the only thing is does not have is charge tickets at the entrance, but they "sack" people's money on a similar way.

This Fatima stuff is a complete FARSE. The worst blind man is the one that does not want to see. The whole theft and lying is right here, in front of our eyes!... waiting for us to believe it, but it is so absurd it only makes us feel like innocent when we buy it! I am sorry, I refuse being such a person. Yes, fanatics WILL say the opposite.. but hey, as I said, I'm done with this. This is my theory and I gave it to you. You should now think about both ways and decide which you think is more adequate.

It might be difficult for you to understand, because you are not from our country and this could have been a magical story and quite plausible too.... and I know don't have much credit.... but believe me, there was no miracle. There is only people's faith in something, that's undenyable. Nobody is questioning faith. But miracles? Thanks, but no thanks. Don't make me dumb.

I am sorry if I can be no more explicit about this, but I'm fed up with this Fatima business, me and most of the portuguese population. When will this madness end? "Oh God!"

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[–] Molly-31 17 years ago

The hucksterism is portrayed right in the film. I'm not arguing that point. I do take your point on material proof. I just wondered how, without material proof, you could be so certain that nothing happened, rather than that something did happen which is now being exploited.

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[–] The-Patient-Man 17 years ago

Yes, I know what you mean and I know what you want to know. But right now, I have 2 obstacles:
1. English is not my first language (so, my texts are not perfect, excuse me for that!)
2. It would take a loooong time for me to explain in detail my opinion on this matter.

What I can tell you (and excuse me if I am repeating myself, but I don't remember everything I wrote) is that there is a big difference between faith and religion. I believe that that single thing, that difference, might make you understand my point of view.

The important thing here is not wether there was a miracle or not. The big thing here is: are there people who actually believe in it? Yes. Does it make people walk hundreds of miles every month of May on every year? Yes. Does the Church use that for their own profit? Yes. But was there a miracle or not? I admit: I don't know. But then again.. nobody knows. The only people who could testify for that are already dead and they were kept very close not to say a word to the world "outside". It's not a conspiracy theory, it's the truth.

So, we have 2 options: either we believe on the miracle, either we don't. The truth we will never know. But we can use our rational abilities to think by ourselves and conjecture which scenario is the most plausible and acceptable. I refuse to believe on it; other people do. My "proof" is it is absurd. Doesn't make sense. And I hate that there are people out there mocking and abusing of other people's faith. People are not religious because of the miracle, that came after.

It would be some kind of prejudice if I said that people who believe in it are "religious fanatics and elder people", but that's exactly how it is around here. Youngsters, teenagers, young adults, 40 and 50-aged people and already many 65+ have been questioning this so-called miracle year after year, because their eyes have been opened to the truth. Now that there is much more information and much more education, Portuguese people are finally able to absorb this theory of farse - the behaviour of the Church all this time helps us understand a lot from the veracity of the miracle. You had to live here to understand this completely, believe me! ^^

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[–] slnk 17 years ago

Youngsters, teenagers, young adults, 40 and 50-aged people and already many 65+ have been questioning this so-called miracle year after year, because their eyes have been opened to the truth.

LOL don't make me laugh... Where did you got that? Have you made another of your so famous surveys?

You can't tell for sure that it didn't happened! Or where you there?

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[–] coolstoryhansel 16 years ago

i'm sorry but when i read your posts all i'm seeing is "blah blah blah"
i understand that you don't believe in this miracle but surely you must know you can't outright say "it didn't happen" because you will NEVER know.
it's one of those "i told you so moments" until you experience something like it or near it you will never understand what a miracle is.
yes its grim but hey I'm sure you're happy with your life.
I would follow your posts more intently if they had some plausible basis to the "arguments" you propose. you keep on saying "sorry, it didn't happen" well hate to break it to you but skepticism is not a new fad, just because you don't believe in something doesn't make it untrue.
i was actually laughing a bit when i was reading your posts, because you are soooo self-assured about something scholars still can't figure out, that, my friend, is beyond a joke.
Look, you can live your life the way you want to but its a sad state of affairs when your mind is not open enough to warrant things you can't explain.
As sure as you are that it didn't happen, there are millions more out there who are sure it did happen, and frankly, due to the recorded events, its in their favor.

God Bless.

----
myspace.com/jadoreurdior
----

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[–] adangelion 17 years ago

I'm from portugal and i don't agree with the following statement: "I'm fed up with this Fatima business, me and most of the portuguese population". Have you taken a survey on the portuguese population? Is there any evidence suporting your opinion?

Sometimes our perception of reality is deeply influenced by the people immediatly surrounding us. To prevent that and to take a sample of how the majority of people think about something you would have to see the TV-scheadules and notice which programs have the higher shares or occupy more time on their broadcasts. TV channels order from time to time statistics to forecast their audience's tendencies. Well, at the time i'm writing this message the public national television RTP1 is doing a special on this subject from 21h to 22h40 and afterwards from 00h40 to 02h30, and a similar thing could be said about TVI(4th channel. There are only 4 national channels, outside cable TV).

Source:http://tv.publico.clix.pt/

Another thing i would like to comment on, is your discourse. You change/contradict yourself in an astonishing way(If i understood correctly what you wrote), as if you were writing in a hurry to show us how right you are.

«My "proof" is it is absurd. Doesn't make sense. And I hate that there are people out there mocking and abusing of other people's faith. People are not religious because of the miracle, that came after.

(...)

It would be some kind of prejudice if I said that people who believe in it are "religious fanatics and elder people", but that's exactly how it is around here.»

«People are FREE to follow a religion and have faith, I just can't accept the fact that they believe in these kind of things. If I wasn't explicit, then I beg to be answered these two simple questions:

1 - What is more worthy of credit: 3 little kids that saw some light in the sky and related it to the funny story their grandma told them every single day about someone called Fatima that would take care of them when they died.. OR the philosophical theories about religion that don't match this sight of them?
I mean.. are we really supost to deny 2500 years of philosophical thought just to believe in 3 kids that never really explained the story straight?»

You agree that people have the right to believe in god? It is enterily natural to believe that god or some other character empowered by god are able to do miracles. The existence of Miracles is not absurd if you belive in god.

As Leibniz, from XVII century(1646-1716), said: Miracles agree with the general order, although they may be against some subaltern laws; of what god wants or allows, by a particular or general will(I tried my best to translate it from a portuguese edition of Discourse on Metaphysics
i have). Don't be so presumptuous by stating people that 'belive' in miracles deny 2500 years of philosophical thought.

I tried my best to write in understable english and to not disrespect you. I just hope you are as your name describes you and next time be less impulsive.

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[–] The-Patient-Man 17 years ago

Well.. the truth is I hardly ever have time to come here and comment on something, so it is natural that my opinion isn't as good as it should be. I wrote everything "on top of my knees", in a hurry.

ell, at the time i'm writing this message the public national television RTP1 is doing a special on this subject from 21h to 22h40 and afterwards from 00h40 to 02h30,

Yes. But don't forget it is public TV. They MUST transmit every different taste, that's why it is public, wether there are 3 million people watching or just a few thousand.

Now..

There is no contradiction on my comments. I said two differente things:
- first, that I respect everyone's faith;
- second, and afterwards, that nobody should ever use and abuse that people's faith in order to gain personal profit.

If you are from Portugal, then you know what I am talking about, and the fact that you are Catholic does not invalidate this thought of mine. The Church abuses its power, they have overrated importance and there is some kind of blindness on those who follow this religion - they just become obsessed in anything related to the religion and believe everything they hear.

The Church itself has more contradictions than my speech since my first comment on this thread. Which is interesting is the fact that they have just opened a new "Basilica" a few days ago - you've probably seen it on TV, then you might know what I am talking about. That's where the money went; not to the poor, not to help the needed, not to those who year after year make enormous sacrifices to reach that city. No. Instead of using the money to promote what they SEEMED to defend all these years, they prefered to built a new Church, millions of euros cost, they preferred a "chavão".

But why do I care? No nosso país, faz-se o que o povo inculto quer: igrejas bonitas, rotundas com fontes e campos de futebol. Viva Portugal, que assim vai longe...

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[–] adangelion 17 years ago

TVI is not a public broadcaster. And both, TVI and RTP1 did another special on the following weekend with duration of more than 2 hours.

In my opinion, there are two major possible interpretations for the construction of the new basilica:

1- It's yours,«That's where the money went; not to the poor, not to help the needed, not to those who year after year make enormous sacrifices to reach that city. No. Instead of using the money to promote what they SEEMED to defend all these years, they prefered to built a new Church, millions of euros cost, they preferred a "chavão".»

2- The other is slightly different, its purpose is to celebrate, in a considerable proportion, the remarkable event that occured some time ago, with a 'monument'.
On june 1996 the shrine of fátima published a small work of 133 pages to explain in more detail the reasons for the new church.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jYyZ3bbMRMMJ:www.santuario-fatima.pt/portal/index.php%3Fid%3D2502+op%C3%BAsculo+%E2%80%9CGrande+espa%C3%A7o+coberto+para+assembleias+(GECA)+e+outros+espa%C3%A7os%E2%80%9D.&hl=pt-PT&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=pt&client=firefox-a

But i agree with you on one thing, em portugal faz-se o que o zé-povinho quer, sem se pensar no que é melhor para o país. Também existe uma grande falta de amor à pátria, à comunidade em que vivemos. A maioria das pessoas é muito egoísta, não entende que pode ser feliz servindo a comunidade.

Abraços.

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[–] cesco_the_large 16 years ago

Patient:

It's normal that younger generations are more unlikely to believe this event, because they live in a more and more distant time to the events.
Don't tell me it's because they are now more educated. That would mean that educated people are not able do believe in miracles which insults me. That's the same to say that an educated person won't have faith, only the ignorant. And to believe in miracles it takes what? That's right: faith.

I can also add that my grandparents we were alive back in 1917 (My grandfather was fighting in WW I) and they knew people who were not sheperds or farmers or ignorant and, YES, they witnessed the events and they were as astonished as I imagine you and me would be if we saw something so UNLIKELY and apparently absurd as it was.

I agree that it's nuts and it's against all odds and it seems impossible to believe, but miracles usually are! Myself being catholic would find very difficult to believe in some kind of story like this. But there you go, there were lots of people who didn't believe it either until they saw it. Many weren't believers but they all did confirm what they saw. So NO, they didn't tell it because they were 'fanatics' as you called them or blind sheeps.

AND A VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:

The theory of 'blind and less educated society that was anxious to believe this kind of stuff' isn't much valid.

We should remember that at the time we were living on a profoundly atheist and laicist regime who pursued priests and many catholics (YES, you can find it on history books) and it wasn't ready to swallow a story from 3 litle ignorant kids in a small village far away. As you may know it was actually an extremely hard time to the kids since NOBODY believed them and they actually got imprisioned. The people surrounding them had the reaction you told the people of today have towards Fatima, that is: a SKEPTICAL one. Which is actually normal. So you theory doesn't apply.

Sorry for the length of the post, but I would appreciate it if you read the whole of it.

Abraços

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[–] The-Patient-Man 16 years ago

Yes, I read it all.

Thanks for the response.

I assure you that the fact that I belong to a younger generation does not determine this opinion of mine. It influences, yes, but does not determinate. The main thing that made my opinion is knowledge and thought based on reason. I will keep preaching (how ironical..) that Catholicism has overrated importance, that building that new church was a complete waste of money and that that miracle did not exist.

Call me skeptical, I call myself rational. We could now begin a whole discussion on the religion issue and its consequences on the society in general, but let's keep the discussion in near terms.

Regarding this:
"So NO, they didn't tell it because they were 'fanatics' as you called them or blind sheeps. "
That was a metaphor. When someone believes in something and follows it "blindly" in a way that it strongly influences his/her behavior, habits and attitudes towards everyday life, then we are talking about fanatic people. Don't take this as an insult, I am only saying it in terms of description. Fanatism is somewhat the absence of ponderation (does this word exist?). And that is exactly what I have been saying: not saying that people with faith are not rational, but that if they thought a little bit more, then they would change.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying (nor I can do that!) that people can not (or should not) believe on what they want. I think religion is an amazing thing and yes! it is great that people ought to believe in something, as we are every now and again confronted with existencialistic issues. And I enjoy the fact that people have faith. That devotion is somewhat marvellous. BUT the miracle should not be considered as people tend to characterize it. The miracle is supost to be a kind of allegory or a giant metaphor, just like those in the Bible. It's not ment to be true, is just some [other] way to make philosophical theory adapted to the issue of Life and Existencialism. If you look at it that way, you see that it does not deny faith. That's my point of view.

Abraços!

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[–] ridgerunner72160 16 years ago

Let's tell it like it really is shall we? You're just another bitter atheist who hates God and anybody who is a Christian. Now don't you have another commie ACLU meeting to attend?

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[–] attitude_070 16 years ago

I agree 100%

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[–] sorigabit 13 years ago

just one possible explanation:.

"the dancing effects witnessed at Fatima may have been due to optical effects resulting from temporary retinal distortion caused by staring at such an intense light"

another quote from wikipedia:

"According to Lúcia's accounts, the lady told the children to do penance and to make sacrifices to save sinners and console Jesus for the world's sins. The children wore tight cords around their waists to cause pain, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance."

is this what you call "religion"? if so....

http://www.thecheers.org/Opinion/article_3111_7-reasons-why-religion-is-a-form-of-mental-illness.html

yes, patient-man...you do have an ally

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[–] Mustapha_P 11 years ago

Don't believe everything you read on wiki.

In fact;let's do our own experiment.
YOU look at the sun for a long period of time.
Do not worry about your eyesight as there weren't any reports of people going blind through watching the "Sun miracle" and we all know that if there were no reports,it didn't happen,right? Therefore,you have no excuse not to do it.
Now,after you have done it ,let us know if you saw the effects described .Oh,and by the way,just SAYING you have done it will not be good enough.You will need to show ACTUAL PROOF that you have done it and what you saw or didn't see.
Posting that you have done it without such proof will mean that you are a liar or a drunk or a mad person.

Okay,when do you plan to do it?
:)

Just using your own reasoning against you,cobber.

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[–] attitude_070 16 years ago

Honestly, I'm not even going to dignify your comments with a response. I only have one thing to say..you say that I have the right to believe what I want, and so do you.. but the way you're talking you're basically saying that it never happened. How can you be so sure that it never happened?? Do you think you're a monument to the truth?? Give me a break!! It's funny how you talk about the grandma telling them funny stories all the time, almost as if you were there and know first hand!! lol
I can accept peoples opinions and different views, but not when they're accompanied by arrogance and self righteousness which is what I'm sensing from you.

As for English, yes it's my first language, I wasn't born in Portugal.. though I could probably still teach a thing or two even in Portuguese. No further comments.

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[–] raleighgranprix 13 years ago

I believe the word Mr. Patient-Man is looking for is "exploit", as he meant to say "People need to believe in something, and the Church has found another great way to "exploit" that faith in people's eyes", not that I agree with him necessarily and writing this about 3 years after this was posted. In Spanish the verb would be "explotar" and I believe the word "exploit" would make sense in the sentence.

I've read a lot on this whole matter. And since then, a new movie has come out.

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[–] jsrrtzjr10 12 years ago

I agree with you 100%!

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[–] johnanto-1 16 years ago

If this was made up by these 3 innocent beautiful children than answer me this? It is documeneted that the two younger children Jacinta and Francesco where told by our lady that they would die young, which in fact they both did. And why did Kucia go into a cloistered very difficult convent and spend the rest of her life in prayer if she made the whole thing up. This was a miracle and not any kind of hoax period!!

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[–] Molly-31 16 years ago

IF the kids had made it up (which I don't think they did), they would be in the situation described by the crippled bishop (also a real person -- Bishop Jose da Silva) in the film just before the last vision. Remember what he warned her about -- people had been coming in by the zillions in hope and faith. If the kids were faking and anyone found out, they and their families would suffer for it, maybe even get lynched. So once the story of the visions got out, they had to stick by it whether it was true or not, and follow the established pattern for Marian visionaries at that time.

Children who claim visions are usually handled by cantonal and diocesan clergy. If they cannot be bullied into recanting (as happened to Adelaide Roncalli http://www.madonnadelleghiaie.it/) then the messages are examined to see if they are, or can be spun, to the advantage of the Church. The children would be counseled as to how or even IF they should speak of their visions and messages, and their future careers in the Church were predetermined. Until the 1930s, there was literally no alternative if you wanted to be believed about what you had seen. You can see this in the last part of The Song of Bernadette.

Some people were scandalized when the kids who had seen the (approved) visions at Beauraing and Banneux grew up to marry and have families. A priest defending the choices of the Beauraing Five sarcastically remarked that "people don't want to believe Mary really appeared unless her visionaries join a convent and die of TB at the age of twenty-six". (I think this quote is in either A Woman Clothed with the Sun or The Evidence for Apparitions of the Virgin Mary.)

So, whether or not the kids had made it up, the priests were looking for something to help reinforce the faith when atheism and freethinking were rampant, so Lucia got popped into a convent to fit the profile, even though our Lady had not (that I know of) instructed her to be a nun, just to learn to read and write.

This is why I believe in some reported apparitions which have not been approved, because I think the Church's approval process, along with much that is wise and appropriate, contains a certain amount of political *beep* designed to enforce Church authority rather than to get Her messages out.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] bastasch8647 15 years ago

The sun "miracle" has never been rationally explained. Remember: it was witnessed not only by some 70,000 people in and near the Cova da Iria. It was also seen in villages miles away, by people who just happened to witness it, who were not expecting it. Moreover, the vehemently anti-church, anti-religion newspaper O Seculo (The Century) did an admirable job of reporting the events, including the fact that secularists, skeptics (both in and outside of the church) and atheists witnessed the bizarre event of that October day (as well as many anomalous events on the 13th day of previous months).

Michael Grosso and Jacques Vallee in my opinion give the best "explanation" for this series of very odd events. A "miracle" did occur, but the standard Catholic interpretation was a much later projection onto and commentary upon the "raw" events (rather like what happened in the "Marian apparition" at Lourdes, France).

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[–] halstonremway-1 15 years ago

ridgerunner your comment that patientman is "just another bitter atheist who hates god" doesn't make any sense. How can a person hate someone who they don't believe is exists?? You obviously have no idea what an atheist really is.

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[–] Molly-31 13 years ago

A lot of people who think of themselves as atheists do the "God doesn't exist and I hate him" thing.

Let's just say that God doesn't believe in me.

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[–] Vanessa248 13 years ago

It's a good movie to watch again during lent.

* Natural vitamins http://www.naturalcholesterolsupplements.com *

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[–] jsrrtzjr10 12 years ago

Excuse me. In both "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and "The God Delusion" by Dr Richard Dawkins, yes I know they are unbelievers, say clearly that in the records of the Lisbon astronomical observatory the then Portuguese scientists claimed NOTHING funny happened that day. The same I read in an article of Life magazine published in 1948-1949. Look for them And don't believe in nonsense!

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[–] Bran_McNobre 12 years ago

I don't even know where to start.. Fátima was an hoax, and it's belief amongst the portuguese population remains more connected to a social aspect than anything else, just like the population relationship with Catholic religion in general.

Portugal has about 800 years of history as a country and it has been a secular state only during the brief years of the republic in the beginning of the 20th century and the last 30 years (after a 40 year duration dictatorship). And the "Santo Oficio" AKA "Inquisition" was present almost until 200 years ago..

Religion has always played a humoungus, gigantic role in the life of the portuguese population, and there are thousands of reported miracles clamped among the country's history i.e. D. Afonso Henriques (the founder of Portugal and it's first king) being visited by Jesus Christ before a decisive battle against the muslims.. It seems one may say that "You can´t prove that was NOT a miracle also right? So it must be true!" Well, I guess so.. If you believe God or Jesus Christ don't give a damn about muslims although they are human beings also...

Many of these so-called miracles are based on political and social interest that were backed up by the religious institutions of the time in order to profit. The country's full of monasteries and ruins of monasteries, even in urban areas (where they were really abundant), and the history of religious prosecution (by the state, always a partner of religion in Portugal) against other beliefs that did not fit into the Catholic perspective is easy to find if one is willing to open his eyes just a bit.

And to finish I'd like to say that I think that if Jesus Christ did existed and if he would be alive he would kick the ass of those "merchants" who stand by the hundreds at the "temple" of Fatima. I mean, he would probably demolish the all thing since it quickly became a religious supermarket that seems to keep growing in such fashion each year.

P.S. - For those who don't know, if you open your eyes a bit, you may also notice that "The Sanctuary" keeps a structure that catchs stray dogs that end up at the place (probably attracted by the amount of people) and puts them in a kennel where they kill them. Quite a mercifull and "religious" act I guess.. but you know.. peacefull and tired street dogs searching for food and shelter just don't go with such a sacred place..

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[–] jsrrtzjr10 12 years ago

Not trying to excuse the Catholic Church [much I criticize its doctrines others are far worse!], but here in the USA you have a Mormon church who talks of a Joseph Smith finding some "golden plates" in unknown writings, and evangelists claiming to cure illnesses.

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[–] Molly-31 12 years ago

I just found some information confirming your story about the stray dogs at the shrine. Thank you.

You've got me?! Who's got you?!

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[–] Bran_McNobre 11 years ago

No problem. Glad you looked it up! It's sad but it should be said.

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[–] ScottBang 8 years ago

This is just awesome on every level.

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[–] bastasch8647 8 years ago

Yes, it is - and the "Sun Dance" as well as all the other weird stuff that happened on the 13th of each month were not hoaxes. We have documentation from the hostile, anti-religion local paper, O Seculo - in articles published the very day after each event - that the "wonders" were the "real deal", and disturbed even the most die-hard materialists and skeptics.

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