MovieChat Forums > High Noon (1952) Discussion > John Wayne had a point about this movie

John Wayne had a point about this movie


John Wayne was very angry at this movie because of the alleged blacklisting and witchhunt allegory but he also professed to dislike it as a movie and as a Western.

He said something to the effect of "These people travelled hundreds and thousands of miles, battling bandits, Indians, storms, floods, wind and snow to settle a god-forsaken land and make a life out of it- and now they are pissing their pants over four outlaws? Give me a break!"

Good point. In real life, if four thugs showed up and announced that they'd take over the town, the townspeople would a) laugh, b) blow their heads off, c) go back to milking cows.




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That is a good point except there was powerful group of movers and shakers in Hadleyville that made lots of money when the bad guys were in town. Things were wide open and the money flowed in from many sources both legal and illegal. The illegal money from gambling, prostitution, etc. was soon spent in legal ways. The rising tide helped all the "ships".

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Good points here, but I think John Wayne has a deeper problem that being afraid of the "red boogie man"
and all that HUAC b.s. back in the fifties.
I think John Wayne was very hurt that his excellent film, the Quiet Man didn't bring him his long awaited Oscar. Wayne was brilliant in it, for sure. But then Cooper was also in High Noon.
It must have been really hard for him to collect the Oscar for Coop that night when he lost out.
The Quiet Man was his favourite film and my personal fave as well.



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In any case, Wayne "forgot" many aspects of the movie when attacking it. For instance he says that the church scene has men one one side and women on the other, his comment was "What kind of church is that?". He also said that Gary Cooper stomped the badge in the dirt at the end of 'High Noon'. Cooper dropped the badge, but he didn't step on it.

Wayne was a good actor, but sometimes he let his emotions get in the way of the bigger picture.

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For the poster who said that the townspeople would have laughed at the outlaws and blown their heads off because they had the numbers: in modern times, how many times have you heard about a street gang terrorizing a whole block of good citizens? Hadleyville had gotten a little more "civilized" between the time Miller went to prison and the time he got out. That was Kane's point of throwing the badge in the dirt: now that all of the shooting was over, they come out to offer their congratulations. Where were these people when the bullets were flying all over the place? Where were they BEFORE all of the shooting?



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In any case, Wayne "forgot" many aspects of the movie when attacking it. For instance he says that the church scene has men one one side and women on the other, his comment was "What kind of church is that?".

Yeah, the Duke's ignorance was showing, there, because it's only been maybe during the last century or so that the church pews became "co-ed." I believe some of the "primitive" and fundamentalist churches (Mennonite, Amish, etc.) still practice separation of the sexes in their congregations.

I love "High Noon" but share Wayne's belief that a REAL, American frontier town wouldn't have p***ied out the way the townsfolk did over four, gun-totin' outlaws.

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Your 'red boogie man' murdered more people than the Nazis .

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"Your 'red boogie man' murdered more people than the Nazis."

What does that have to do with the price of black-eye peas in Tennessee?

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If you read a couple of posts up, a poster made light of Communists and what they were. I was just reminding him/her that the Reds were MORE than just a bogeyman...comrade.

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"If you read a couple of posts up, a poster made light of Communists and what they were. I was just reminding him/her that the Reds were MORE than just a bogeyman...comrade."

I ain't no comrade; I'm just a good old boy from East Tennessee. High Noon is just a good ole shoot-them-up western. I read those post but I don't understand what all this bull manure about commies and bogeymen is about. I didn't see any commies in the movie. I think both sides are getting their blood pressures worked up over nothing.

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Stalin did that, not COMMUNISM. And he didn't do it as an extension of his Communist ideology. He was a stone cold megalomaniac. I'm not saying Communism is "right", but you can't be that simplistic. Regardless being a "red" or even exploring communist ideology is not akin to being a Nazi or white supremacist as there is nothing in that ideology that espouses violence. And those people certainly didn't deserve to be blacklisted.

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I find John Wayne's comments about the fortitude and character of the frontier settlers very interesting. I thought the same thing when watching The Searchers starring John Wayne. It was annoying to watch these supposedly hardy people run around like they didn't know how to do anything deferring to John Waynes character. I found my self continually thinking what did these people do for 7 years while this guy was away in the war? I just couldn't understand how they survived. So, it is interesting that Wayne would criticize another movie that portrayed similar issues.

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That's a very good observation. I've seen The Searchers twice and I've never thought of that.

The townsfolk in The Searchers are so at the mercy of the Indians. They are almost competely defenseless against them (Lucy's bf gets killed practically on the first day, Ethan's brother is a putz, the others won't seek revenge)- so why the heck didn't the Comanches kill them years ago? How did they survive that long in the first place, then?

Good luck? No, they say they've had raids before. So they apparently can defend themselves.

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"Ethan's brother is a putz"

I don't think so. I think Ethan's brother gave a good account of himself with his one-shot rifle. He killed at least two, maybe three of the raiders.



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For a realistic portrayal of frontier cowardice, watch Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, which is a fairly accurate depiction of William H. Bonney (i.e., Billy the Kid)'s last days. After he shot down two deputies in cold blood, he took his sweet time before riding out of Lincoln--almost an hour--and no one made any effort to stop him. In the movie Billy (Kris Kristofferson) sings a song, making up verses to display his contempt for the people of Lincoln.
When Pat Garrett arrives later that day, he (James Coburn) disgustedly orders his deputies' bodies covered.
The point is, the kind of cowardice displayed by the townsfolks in High Noon could--and did--happen in frontier America.

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Another example is in Huckleberry Finn (published in 1881) after Colonel Sherbourne kills Boggs. He tells an angry mob that gathers outside a door that he's not afraid of them, because "I was born and bred in the South and I've lived in the North, so I know the average man all around. The average man's a coward."

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Especially if you did not have the goods to be a badd asss!

Remember, there were farmers, sod busters, townspeople, etc.,
who were able to kick plenty ass and take names later.

If you did not possess any of these ably defending qualities;
you were a coward...as portrayed by the townspeople in this movie,
obviously not a one of them were strong and courageous enough
to handle this on their own.



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You hit the nail on the head. Wayne, like many conservatives, wasn't much of a thinker.

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The difference in The Searchers is that those characters just weren't experts on the Comanche, or as much as Ethan was.

They weren't cowards. Ethan's brother killed a few on his own. The townsfolk here were just yellow.

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Well, he's kind of missing the point of the movie, though. The movie wasn't about the grungy and determined attitude of the frontiersman, but basically a story rivaling the apocalypse. In fact, it isn't even really a western movie, it just happens to be set in a frontier town (think, it's a dry, hot, and bleak town). The Bible verse the pastor mentions (Malachi 4:1, from KJV if you want to know) has more importance in the movie than the western setting. (Think back to the beginning, when the man getting a shave says "it sure is hot". There are many similar little references like this throughout the movie.)

Anyway, ultimately many of the tiny little details and thematic elements make up more of an allegory of the apocalypse (failure of all of societies important figures and institutions) than a simple Western movie.

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"Anyway, ultimately many of the tiny little details and thematic elements make up more of an allegory of the apocalypse (failure of all of societies important figures and institutions) than a simple Western movie"

What's so complex about a movie that's an allegory about McCarthyism and/or the apocalypse? What's a "simple Western" exactly? One with characters that seem like human beings, one with human stories instead of political or religious ones?

Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'

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It seems strange to me that Wayne always put this western down as "unpatriotic" yet would accept an oscar for it. If he hated it that much, why be part of honouring it at the oscar ceremony?

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Anthony Quinn told a great story about how Wayne came to pick up Cooper's Oscar.

Cooper was Quinn's idol, he had the greatest admiration for him, as a person and as an actor. On Quinn's first day on the set of The Plainsman, as a 19 year-old, his first film, Quinn refused to say the lines. He said his character (an Indian) would never say such things. De Mille, outraged, ordered him off the set, and fired him. On the spot. Cooper intervened and told De Mille that the young man was right, an Indian wouldn't say such things. De Mille wasn't about to contradict Cooper and Quinn stayed, the lines were changed, and Cooper and Quinn became friends.

Cooper and Quinn were making Blowing Wild together in Mexico in 1953. Both Cooper and Quinn were nominated for AAs -- Cooper/High Noon and Quinn, best supporting for Vivi Zapata. It was Quinn's first nomination and he wanted to go up for the ceremony. But when he found out good buddy Coop wasn't going, then he decided not to. A radio feed to the AAs was set up in a building on the set. Quinn was excited and eager to listen. But when he noticed Cooper and Barbara Stanwyck (also in the film) each grab a bottle of wine and head out the door, Quinn did the same. Hell, if Coop wasn't listening, neither was he - even though he admitted he wanted to, desperately.

So they go up to a hill and the three of them start quaffing their wine, nattering about this and that. Suddenly, Cooper starts chuckling to himself, pretty soon he's laughing outloud. Quinn asked Cooper what was so funny. Cooper says that he ran into John Wayne over in Cuernavaca a couple of weeks before.

Quinn, aware that Wayne had been a major force behind Carl Foreman's blacklisting and that Wayne had warned Cooper that if he didn't walk off the film, his career would be over, Wayne even threatened to get Cooper blacklisted. Cooper had none of this and publicly backed Foreman, even offering to testify before HUAC on Foreman's behalf (character witnesses were not permitted, though). When wayne got Stanley Kramer to remove Foreman's name as screenwriter, Cooper (and Zinnemann) threatened to walk off if it was removed. Foreman's name stayed, natch. Seven other people who worked on High Noon were also blacklisted, including cinematographer Floyd Crosby (want to get an earful about this, listen to David Crosby -- Crosby, Stills & Nash -- discuss this), and Wayne was a major reason why.

Quinn asked Cooper if he popped Wayne in the mouth. Cooper, who had a dry, British sense of humor, said no, that he asked Wayne to pick up his Oscar if he won. Quinn and Stanwyck were stunned. When Quinn asked why the hell he did that, Cooper replied, still laughing: "What the hell is the sonuvabitch going to say if I win!"

Well, Cooper did win, of course, and Wayne did pick up the Oscar. And talk about chutzpah, Wayne gets up there and says that it was a great script by Carl Foreman and he is going to get ahold of his agent and find out why he wasn't offered High Noon.

A couple of years later, Cooper was sent a script called Lewis and Clark. He was offered the role of Lewis, while Wayne had been offered the role of Clark. Cooper scrawled a huge NO on the script and sent it back, unread.

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Great story, thank you for posting it. Btw, the script Wayne and Cooper turned down was "The Far Horizons,which Heston and Fred MacMurray accepted.

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Hey, thanks for the info on The Far Horizons, you're right, of course. Somehow I never connected it to the Lewis & Clark sent to Cooper and Wayne. Wonder if the budget was dropped when Cooper and Wayne said no? Been a long time since I saw it, but I have a vague memory of Heston and MacMurray trudging in front of paper-mache-like scenery.

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Apart from the papier-mache scenery there was also some stunning location shots of Heston and Donna Reed in canoes.

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What a fabulous story, jem, thanks a lot for relating it. I never could understand how Wayne could accept Gary Cooper's Oscar or why Stanley Kramer and Zinnemann and Cooper let him do it. Now that I know why it makes sense and is so funny. I never knew that Quinn and Cooper were such good friends. Could I ask where you heard this story, jem?

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I heard it from Quinn myself. I was interviewing him for a documentary I was doing. He was a fascinating man, and an amazing raconteur. I had hoped to get together with Quinn, but he'd moved out of NYC (where I live) after his divorce and was living on a small farm up in Rhode Island. He'd lost his great huge apartment over on the East River. Before we could arrange a time to hook up, he died unexpectedly -- if dying at his age is ever really unexpected.

Quinn told me some extraordinary stories about Wayne, to the point that I finally said that I'm not sure I need to know that.

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Quinn approached me from the opposite direction in a cross-walk at 58th & Sixth (Ave of the Americas) just about the time he was doing his film role as the "Onassis" character.

He was so strikingly handsome, that my knees were like wet noodles by the time I got to the other side. I have no idea what my facial expression was when I saw him, but when I got to the other side of the street, I turned around to look at him. He was looking back and waved at me!!! I almost hyper-ventilated.
I also ran into a parking sign.

His version of the night of the Oscars when he, Cooper, and Stanwyck were in Mexico, is recounted in the Jeffrey Meyers biography of Cooper. Spicey!!!

Note to readers: You didn't miss anything in the subsequently deleted post. It was just a duplicate of this. Don't know how it posted twice.

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[deleted]

Yeah, I left out about Cooper and Stanwyck and a wandering finger while they were up on the hill. I can imagine doing a double take when you spotted Quinn on the street. An extraordinary talent.

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John Wayne apparently also thought that the primary tools by which the west was won were, in fact, NOT deceit and murder of genocidal proportions. Bit of a hypocrite there I´m afraid.



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This is the kind of thread that makes message boards worth reading!

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Very interesting post, jem-93, but a couple of corrections and augmentations to the story.

John Wayne didn't "get" Foreman or anyone else blacklisted, and how much influence he wielded in getting anyone blacklisted by the industry is very debatable. Wayne had tried to save the career of Larry Parks, who had first denied to HUAC that he'd ever been a member of the Communist Party (which was a lie: he had been), then recanted his testimony when his old party card was produced. Wayne tried to intervene to get Parks off the hook with both HUAC and the studios, to no avail. Having Wayne against you might not have helped matters, but it's highly doubtful that Wayne or any one person exerted any real influence in having anyone actually blacklisted. I doubt you could find anyone who would not have been blacklisted had Wayne not supported it.

As to Carl Foreman, Wayne -- according to Foreman -- went to see the writer at his home to ask him to voluntarily remove his name from High Noon's screen credits. By this time it was clear that Foreman would be blacklisted, and he was involved in suing the State Department to restore his passport so he could leave the country for Britain (where he would live until 1975, becoming a leader of the British film industry and the writer and/or producer of such classics as The Bridge on the River Kwai, The Mouse That Roared, The Guns of Navarone, Born Free, Young Winston and many others). Foreman said that Wayne bore him no malice, that he had nothing personal against him and realized that Foreman's past membership in the CP had been a matter of youthful zeal and did not make Foreman a traitor or threat to the nation; he knew that Wayne was simply concerned that Foreman's name would hurt Cooper's chances at winning the Oscar. Foreman refused but said he understood Wayne's point of view, even though he disagreed with it.

Wayne may have tried (before or after meeting with Foreman) to get Stanley Kramer to remove his credit, but this brings up another aspect of the story. Though Foreman's name stayed on the credits, Kramer -- the great, fighting liberal, foe of injustice everywhere -- refused to speak with Foreman or have anything to do with him, avoiding him at all costs, to save his own career. Kramer was, in short, a coward and a hypocrite. Gary Cooper -- a conservative Republican, but a western libertarian who loathed attacking people for their politics -- supported Foreman until things got too hot even for him, and Foreman understood and sympathized with Cooper's own plight. (Cooper had planned to join with Foreman in forming a production company to produce their own films; not until Foreman got out from under the blacklist a few years later did he finally form his company, in England.)

Anyway, after a year in Britain (still poor and under rationing), Foreman's wife returned to the States and divorced him. Foreman later married an Englishwoman and had a new family, and after a secret meeting with HUAC in 1956, in which he was partially "rehabilitated" (though he still couldn't yet return home to work), he was able to have on-screen credit again and prospered. One day in the early 60s, Foreman, who had gone to Hollywood on business and taken his family, saw Wayne in a restaurant and brought him over to meet the new family he would never have had but for his blacklisting. He certainly wasn't thanking Wayne for his efforts to have Foreman remove his credit from High Noon or support of the blacklist, but he understood and respected Wayne for being forthright, and not malicious, in expressing his views, and they had a pleasant meeting. On that same trip, Foreman ran into none other than the "fearless" Stanley Kramer in an elevator at Columbia Pictures. Kramer saw Foreman and turned his eyes away, refusing to say anything to him or even make eye contact. (Foreman also kept silent as a result.)

Foreman always took his experiences as an example of how few things in life, or Hollywood, are black and white, that you can never judge others simply by their political views, and that people act from complex and often contradictory motives. Though his politics were always very different from Wayne's (and Cooper's), he respected both men for their honesty and candor and their commitment to doing what they thought was right. By contrast, he held a lifelong contempt for Kramer -- for whom he had worked on several films before High Noon -- for his cravenness and hypocrisy, and his willingness to betray others just to protect his own career. Foreman was quite right. This might also explain why Wayne thanked Foreman for his script in accepting the Oscar: he bore Foreman no ill will and was trying to say something decent about him.

Incidentally, I don't know that a statement by the OP, that Wayne was jealous of Cooper winning the Oscar because Wayne wanted to win for The Quiet Man, is accurate. Wayne wasn't even nominated for that film, which he couldn't hold against Cooper. However, it may be that that film's director, John Ford, won his fourth Oscar as Best Director because of his stand against Cecil B. DeMille's effort, in 1950, to overthrow the board of the Directors Guild because it was dominated by liberals, many of them of foreign birth. Ford had come out against DeMille at the crucial session, much to the surprise of DeMille's targets (people like Joseph L. Mankiewicz, Billy Wilder, William Wyler and others), and swung the group behind the beleaguered liberals against DeMille. I always though Ford's Quiet Man Oscar was a thank-you from his fellow directors, made especially sweet by the fact that one of the men Ford defeated was DeMille, up for directing the year's Best Picture winner, The Greatest Show on Earth.

(And yet... in 1956, when DeMille asked his longtime composer Victor Young to do the score for The Ten Commandments, Young -- who was dying, and trying to complete his work on Around the World in Eighty Days -- declined, and recommended a struggling composer named Elmer Bernstein. Bernstein had begun well in Hollywood but had then been "gray-listed" because of his leftist sympathies, though he was not a Communist, and had been forced to find work composing the scores for Cat-Women of the Moon and Robot Monster. When DeMille met with Bernstein, the composer told him his political views and situation, but DeMille said he had checked him out and thought Bernstein had been given a bad deal. As a result, Bernstein got the big break he needed to go on to have his hugely successful career -- all thanks to an arch-conservative who nonetheless wanted to judge and treat him fairly.)

As I said, you never know about people.

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If wayne tried to get Foreman to take his name off the screenplay then Wayne is as big a coward as ANY of the townfolk in that godforsaken town of Hadley!

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I'm no defender of Wayne's politics but whatever you could call him about trying to get Foreman to take his name off High Noon, "coward" isn't one of them. The term doesn't have any logic to it in this context. You could call him contemptible, self-righteous, unjust, things like that, but "coward"? That doesn't even make sense here.

At least Wayne was acting in accordance with his own beliefs, which was Foreman's point. Nothing "cowardly" about that. Quite the opposite, if anything: asking someone to remove his credits from a film isn't a "cowardly" act; it took some guts. By contrast, Stanley Kramer's actions in ducking Foreman and trying to shunt him aside were the acts of a coward, not to mention a hypocrite, since Kramer ostensibly opposed the blacklist.

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Here it is. It is amazing what Wayne said at the Oscars, considering....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyA49IOXVk

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Great story :-)

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Any actor's opinions on politics are worth about the same as yours, mine, or a country singer's (unless said actor has paid more attention or learned more or thought more about politics than you or me or the country singer), but the actor's opinions probably get heard by more people than yours or mine, giving them more weight if not validity; the difference in worth between the actor's opinions and the country singer's depend on the factors i mentioned plus maybe how drug/alcohol-addled the brain involved is (just like you and me).

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I think John Wayne was right in a sense-that people who had built a town out of nothing would not scare easily, but the point was that they had fought for their town and there had been peace for a long time and the crisis was so sudden it unnerved them. If they had had a little time to get past the shock of the bad guy who was supposed to be hanged coming back to town, they would have been on board.

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Great, so the Duke missed the whole f'n point of the movie. As the hotelier says, many felt Kane deserved his comeuppance - the town was complicit in the future decay and inevitable destruction of the town that Kane knew he had to stand against. They chose the easy way out and/or a way to fill their rooms and bar stools and whore houses and what not. The patriot doesn't do what the government orders, what the rabble decides is right, but what is intrinsically right. This movie stomps and pisses on any of the trash movies with his often phone in acting of the Duke.

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See the "Great Northfield Minnesota Raid". The James-Younger Gang attempted a robbery on the First National Bank of Northfield. Local citizens, recognizing what was happening, armed themselves and resisted the robbers and successfully thwarted the theft.

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The great Northfield Minnesota Raid was interesting for several reasons. The Youngers and James's, maybe the Daltons had passed around a bottle and had been drinking. Also Northfield was a second choice. The first town had a meeting of men which had just broken up so there were too many men present.

Also Minnesota had a lot of Civil War veterans who didn't panic at gunfire and also were used to deer hunting after the war. There was no FDIC in those days. A bank robbery could have ruined the local economy if they lost their money. The Daltons also got wiped out at Coffeyville, Kansas, when the people resisted and fought back.

I don't know everything. Neither does anyone else

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