MovieChat Forums > Quo Vadis (1951) Discussion > The women in this movie! :/

The women in this movie! :/

posted 13 years ago by jessicahjoy87
27 replies | jump to latest

I love the big sweeping epics of the 'older days'--typically I can forgive any discrepancies concerning acting mannerisms and whatnot; antiquated styles don't normally bother me (even in ancient movies like Metropolis, The Man Who Laughs, Faust, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, etc., all I do is chuckle if I DO do anything at all).

BUT...the women in this movie made me grind my teeth. Not even Sophia Loren's swooning, 'in-a-constant-state-of-some-sort-of-orgasm-face' in The Fall of the Roman Empire made me put on my condescending shoes as much as the way the women acted in this film...not as in actual 'acting,' but the way they acted toward the men. Their ATTITUDE. It made no sense. *spoilers*

First, Lygia ends up throwing herself at Marcus who, even at that time in the movie, would seem to anybody like a complete and total pig (coming into her house and immediately objectifying her, belittling her intelligence and stereotyping her, practically molesting her, then pretty much kidnapping her and forcing her into his service, etc., on top of the fact that he was a soldiering bloodthirsty meathead).

Then this strange Spanish girl who practically foams at the mouth toward her master, cringing and crawling and bootlicking like an animal, enraptured toward and enamored of his indifference and cold sexism, overjoyed even at his offhand, disinterested command to have her flogged (for refusing to leave his side...). I mean, seriously, making out with his statue?? After Lygia fell for Marcus I thought "Ehhhh, it's just one of those things..." but the statue-kissing slave just gave things a little more ridiculous (and weird) turn. I plunged onward, however, nestling consternation between furrowed brows, prepared to forgive again.

THEN what?? It turns out Actia is in love with Nero! Actia, an apparent Christian enthusiast, in 'love' with a sadistic, pompous, cruel, narcissistic, delusional, insane, immature nutcase like Nero? Emperor of the Roman empire, perhaps the most historically-notorious Christian-antagonists ever?? Who the crap wrote the romances for this movie?? Whoever the guy was, he apparently had absolutely no idea how or why women fall in love with men. Perhaps he thought they draw names out of a hat?

I know 'love' is apparently a senseless institution--and that it perhaps could have served as a metaphor for Christ's love for us, which is undeserved--but even in a senseless and worldly institution there seems to be SOME sort of logic behind the attraction. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief. It was all so outrageously fantastic that it kind of ruined the movie for me. I still bought it, but it's not up there with my favorites just because the 'love' interests seem so flat and completely contrary. Did anyone else find it irritating? Or at least take NOTE that the behavior was a bit odd?

[–] cwente2 13 years ago

Well, up until now I only had a credulity problem with the Actia/Nero relationship. But, since your eloquent criticism (I'm a man, btw) I'm scratching my head a little. Could we say that the film's attempt to condense a huge novel into a 3-hour visual rendering forced the writers to leave a little too much to the viewer's imagination? Lygia/Marcus -- love at first sight? Or the truism that some women "like" the men who scare them a little? Spanish girl/Petronius -- missing background in the relationship? She had a brutal youth and his cultured manner and underlying compassion (whipping her but "not" damaging her skin) represented a shocking improvement? Actia/Nero -- maybe he was a nicer ("much" nicer) guy before he became emperor and, of course, there's that mother's instinct thing to consider? . . . Hmmm, maybe not -- I get what you're saying, and you present your case very well indeed!

[–] Mithrandir-Olorin888 13 years ago

Acte and Nero where romantically linked Historically, but this film portrays neither accurately. Most of my comparison between Quo Vadis and SoC is about this sort of thing.

"When the chips are down... these Civilized people... will Eat each Other"

[–] furienna 13 years ago

First, Lygia ends up throwing herself at Marcus who, even at that time in the movie, would seem to anybody like a complete and total pig (coming into her house and immediately objectifying her, belittling her intelligence and stereotyping her, practically molesting her, then pretty much kidnapping her and forcing her into his service, etc., on top of the fact that he was a soldiering bloodthirsty meathead).

I like this movie very much, but yeah, they handled the Marcus/Lygia romance awfully. Marcus is a much better person in the novel, even though he makes some mistakes there as well. He never should have taken Petronius's advice on having Lygia brought to the imperial palace. And when he met her there, he got drunk in front of Lygia and scared her off. Not to mention that his love her doesn't look healthy at times, but more like obsession, to a modern reader. But he still was a nicer guy than the arrogant jerk in this movie, and he started moving towards Christianity already during St Peter's sermon. He never would have said things like "women have no need for philosophy" (which maybe would have been an acceptable thing to say in ancient Rome, but not in Western society today, and not so much even sixty years ago, when this movie was made) or destroyed a cross in front of her. It feels like instead of focusing on Marcus's good sides in the novel, the script writers for this movie focused on his bad sides, and I don't understand why, except that it made Lygia's running away from him more plausible.

Then this strange Spanish girl who practically foams at the mouth toward her master, cringing and crawling and bootlicking like an animal, enraptured toward and enamored of his indifference and cold sexism, overjoyed even at his offhand, disinterested command to have her flogged (for refusing to leave his side...). I mean, seriously, making out with his statue?? After Lygia fell for Marcus I thought "Ehhhh, it's just one of those things..." but the statue-kissing slave just gave things a little more ridiculous (and weird) turn. I plunged onward, however, nestling consternation between furrowed brows, prepared to forgive again.

Her name was Eunice, and in the novel, she was actually Greek rather than Spanish. But now about what you wrote about her... I never thought about it before, actually, but now that mention it, you have a point. Maybe that's another romance, that's better in the novel? But the novel was also written in 1895 about people in the 1rst century. Maybe we can't expect portaits of women, that would be what we want these days.

THEN what?? It turns out Actia is in love with Nero! Actia, an apparent Christian enthusiast, in 'love' with a sadistic, pompous, cruel, narcissistic, delusional, insane, immature nutcase like Nero? Emperor of the Roman empire, perhaps the most historically-notorious Christian-antagonists ever?? Who the crap wrote the romances for this movie?? Whoever the guy was, he apparently had absolutely no idea how or why women fall in love with men. Perhaps he thought they draw names out of a hat?

Acte was sympathetic towards the Christians, if not a Christian herself. But she wasn't like Lygia, who was afraid of everything, that might be "sinful". And she also encouraged Lygia to follow the rules of the world, that they lived in. Or to be more exact, when Lygia had been brought to the imperial palace, she just had to make the best out of it and stay out of trouble. Neither did she have any understanding for Lygia's wanting to run away from the handsome and rich Marcus Vinicius. So I don't find it weird at all, that she was in love with Nero, even though she mostly lived on memories from a time, when he still hadn't become a complete madman. Another poster also remarked, that Acte was a historical mistress of Nero's.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] jasheco 12 years ago

following some long and erudite posts, I won’t write something now in same style, but as a change of pace: about women in this movie, in another sense -- compared to their roles (and it was ancient Rome after all: doesn’t excuse anything, but might partly explain some archaic relationships. Also this topic can become a bit of Soap Opera genre?) – I mean a cast of beautiful and classy women,
-- Deborah Kerr a touch of class; (according to Trivia section) Elizabeth Taylor, Sophia Loren (and her mother!) as extras;
and ‘Poppaea’ (the actress still alive by-the-way) and ‘Eunice’ -- Am drawing attention mainly to Marina Berti (as Eunice), relatively unknown, I went wow (hopefully don’t come across as sexist!) who is that beauty -- Elena Maureen Bertolini, never saw her before – forget about statue-licking thing etc., anyway Rome there overall is portrayed as decadent!, just surprised that this Latin beauty apparently didn’t ‘make it big’ like Sophia Lauren – for what it’s worth; in general, saw the Video today, 1st time, after hearing about it for years (have always known of Quo Vadis legend, of course) – in every sense of word a real epic.

Wisdom and Dirt, (to Esmé with) Love & Squalor?

[–] Rosabel 13 years ago

You have trouble with Eunice and Petronius? Not me - it's Leo Genn, for heaven's sake! I'd have kissed his statue too, if I couldn't do any better, and at that point she had no expectation of ever becoming his favourite. He had to have her punished for disobedience - it was a matter of discipline. If he had let her get away with contradicting his orders, his other slaves would have lost respect for him and would have tried to get away with all sorts of nonsense too. A master had certain responsibilities, and if he couldn't govern his own household it would lower him in everyone's estimation. This is just the way life was, a bit like in the army; you can't let discipline slide or else you have disorder. As it was, Petronius was a very humane master - his order not to damage her skin was obviously a bit self-serving - he didn't want his 'investment' lessened in value (and he was a connaisseur of beauty, so he didn't want hers ruined) - but he could have been brutal and uncaring. In the book, Marcus kills a faithful old servant just for bring him bad news - Petronius isn't like that.

Flat, drab passion meanders across the screen!

[–] furienna 13 years ago

And here I have another point to consider.

I think we have to remember, that Eunice and Acte were slaves. (Well, Acte was a freed-woman, but she was born a slave and remained so into adulthood). It's hard for us in the 21rst century to put ourselves into the mindset, that a 1rst century slave would have had. Slaves were taught already as small children to honor their masters, even if they were complete creeps. So it's maybe not so strange, that if a slave fell in love with her master, that it would have looked like this, no matter how strange it might be to our modern eyes.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] Jessica_Rabbit69 13 years ago

Oh my, I cannot even begin to count the reasons why i am so sick of overly politically correct posts like the OP's, going on and on about how disgusting, sexist, oppressive, discriminatory etc. old movies are.

Quo Vadis is set in Ancient Rome which indeed had a different set of values than we have nowadays. (Hard to believe, isn't it?). The only sensible post in this thread is Rosabel's who hit the nail on the head. If that insults your 21st century sensibilities, I recommend not watching old movies.

On a personal level, I don't have a problem with the Marcus/Lygia romance at all. I thought it was more than obvious why she fell for him.
Eunice and Petronius I also understand, though the kissing of the statue was odd, but so campy that it was fun. Why Acte loved Nero was indeed a bit of a mystery, him being completely loony, but stranger attractions have been known.

"Who the crap wrote the romances for this movie?? Whoever the guy was, he apparently had absolutely no idea how or why women fall in love with men. "
Well, thank you for this generalized statement. I'm sure you can speak for any woman out there.
And now you can even be more outraged...

Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."

[–] furienna 13 years ago

I thought my posts were sensible? 

You're so right about ancient Rome having a different mindset than what we have today. But I also understand where the OP is coming from. I am troubled myself by how they handled the Marcus/Lygia story, which is far more touching in the original novel, where he also is a much better person, even if he still comes across as very flawed to a modern audience.

And as for Eunice kissing the statue of Petronius, that is really no more strange than how I use to kiss pictures of Michael Jackson.  Many girls have kissed pictures of their idols. But back in the 1rst century AD, a statue had to do.

Acte was clearly living on memories from a time, when Nero had not yet become such a nutcase. I believe that was even specifically mentioned at some point in the novel. That is maybe sad, but it could happen...

Intelligence and purity.

[–] Jessica_Rabbit69 13 years ago

Yes, your posts were sensible too. :)-

I do still not understand where the OP is coming from, though she says that old movies in general don't bother her. But her case rests on the very glib and superior assumption that the 21st century is just so perfect and wonderful and the way people talk and act nowadays is, of course, "normal". (First you'd have to define normal).

If the OP considers the love stories in this book to be illogical and hard to understand, I would say just turn on your TV and watch what is now offered up as "love story" in new shows/movies/reality shows. It certainly makes me physically ill.

"And about Eunice kissing the statue of Petronius, it's really no more strange than me kissing a picture of Michael Jackson."
So true. Or going to a Justin Bieber concert and throwing your knickers on the stage. Or texting naked pictures of yourself to people you don't even know. Kissing a statue is positively cute compared to that.

Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."

[–] furienna 13 years ago

I do still not understand where the OP is coming from, though she says that old movies in general don't bother her. But her case rests on the very glib and superior assumption that the 21st century is just so perfect and wonderful and the way people talk and act nowadays is, of course, "normal". (First you'd have to define normal).

I think we're all more or less guilty of thinking, that our values and our mindset is the only right way. And there were a lot of things going on in ancient Rome, that we find disgusting and horrible these days. I also think the OP presented her case really well, even though I don't completely agree with her.

This reminds me of my feelings of the characters in a series of six novels, written by Swedish writer Vibeke Olsson about people in ancient Rome. The main character in the first two parts is a slave called Callistrate. There are so many times, when I just want to shake her out of those thoughts, that a twisted society has put into her head since she was a child. But at least, she's a Christian in a time when it's forbidden, so she shows some courage and a longing for something else, something better. And her daughter Sabina, who's the main character in the two following parts, is much worse. She has every reason to be a Christian. She wouldn't even have survived infancy, if a Christian woman hadn't breast-fed her! But ungratefully enough, she has nothing but contempt for this religion. She even blames the Christians for her mother's misfortunes, even though it's the goverment, who made her a lifetime prisoner in a brothrel. And when one of her step-daughters becomes a Christian, she just keeps nagging about how wrong she is to not "be like people". I just scratch my head. This may be realistic for the time period, and the books are still good, but I just don't get it. I guess that's the same way, that the OP felt about this movie.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] sanliizzet 8 years ago

Not only the silly obsession of women, I also find the accent of all the actress in this movie "strange". Were they all british ? It was almost impossible to understand what Deborah Kerr was mumbling troughout the movie.

[–] rj-27 12 years ago

Furienna and Jessica both make very able replies to your criticisms, which I will not attempt to proliferate, except to say women of power and women of servitude were very different women.

I would expect women of servitude to have much different approaches to men who deem them worthwhile and attractive, than women of power who know what they have and wield it accordingly.

Lygia and Vinicius are another matter in that Lygia had station, but is in the position of an "adopted" daughter, while Marcus holds position and station and is used to getting what he wants.

The novel certainly had more character development and subtleties that the movie simply could not spend the time getting into. For your own edification, if not simple enjoyment and entertainment, you should read one of the best novels ever written.

[–] Eponymous-too 11 years ago

When Henry Kissinger was asked how he managed to date a succession of beautiful women he replied, "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac." All three of the men you question the women's attraction to are very powerful.

"My name is Paikea Apirana, and I come from a long line of chiefs stretching all the way back to the Whale Rider."

[–] furienna 11 years ago

Ah, but I don't think it's that simple. It obviously wasn't these men's power, which had turned the women on. Marcus Vinicius stood for everything, that Lygia had been taught to consider wrong. Eunice was a slave, who hardly could have any hopes for her future, even if Petronius had started noticing her earlier on. Acte also had fallen out of Nero's favor. None of them could really gain anything from being in love with these men. And yet they really were in love, even though especially Lygia/MV and Acte/Nero hardly makes sense.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] Jessica_Rabbit69 11 years ago

Back to that old thread again. :)

"Marcus Vinicius stood for everything, that Lygia had been taught to consider wrong."
She may have been taught that and believed in it too, but that doesn't mean she wasn't tempted.

I do see your point though. These women had nothing to gain from their relationship with those men. Eunice's situation as a slave was not likely to improve one way or the other, and Lygia was quite lucky Vinicius turned out a nicer guy than she could expect in the beginning.

But that doesn't mean power did not play a role in the attraction. It also didn't hurt that Vinicius and Petronius, though to a lesser extent, were good-looking men.

I'm trying to phrase this delicately here so I don't get into hot water, but power would undoubtedly have played a role in the attraction. Power, strength and whatever else goes with it.

This though does not explain Acte's attraction to Nero. Now that's an eternal mystery.

Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."

[–] cwente2 11 years ago

From a male point of view -- an informative post. Thanks. There's also a little truth, perhaps, in what Buck Hannassey says to Julie Maragon in "The Big Country" ('58): "If a woman was to tell the truth, she likes a man who scares her a little."

[–] KatharineFanatic 11 years ago

I came to this forum looking to see if anyone else found the romances as absurd as I did. When you think about it, all three women fall in love with their would-be rapists! Marcus BUYS Lygia and intends to take her home and have his way with her -- probably whether she wants to or not. Days after being saved from that fate, she's professing her undying love for him?

The slave girl -- same thing. She's bought as an object and used as one, and so was Actia, who implies she was brought by force to be Nero's mistress. In her case, she really DID fall for her rapist.

I just... can't imagine any woman, much less three of them, doing that.

--------------
Have you read Femnista? www.charitysplace.com

[–] furienna 11 years ago

Indeed, but this story takes place in antiquity. Women and slaves hardly had any rights anyway.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] hodie 9 years ago

Thank you, furienna. Nice to see someone who realizes that the world may have been different before she was born.

It shouldn't have to be said that the events of this film predated Western third-wave feminism. And honestly, it's a refreshing escape from the arid prudishness and sexual phobias of contemporary "feminism," focusing on play-acting instead of real atrocities against women in the developing world.

I am ashamed that we have produced so many idiots among contemporary women.

[–] Jessica_Rabbit69 9 years ago

Hodie, best reply I've seen in a long time. :)

Jessica Rabbit
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."

[–] angelosdaughter 9 years ago

Agree completely. The behavior of the women in this film is revolting. It is more a reflection of the behavior required of women in the 1950s when this film came out. It ruins this movie for me. And spare me the idea that women in ancient Rome behaved that way. For the most part, they were strong and had rights and more independence than Greek women.
I loved 'The Robe" because the female protagonist Diana, was a strong minded woman who was not afraid to speak her mind to two emperors, one of them an unbalanced maniac.
Ligeia and Eunice are sickening.

I could be a morning person if morning happened at noon.

[–] furienna 8 years ago

Agree completely. The behavior of the women in this film is revolting. It is more a reflection of the behavior required of women in the 1950s when this film came out. It ruins this movie for me. And spare me the idea that women in ancient Rome behaved that way. For the most part, they were strong and had rights and more independence than Greek women.

Roman women did not so have many rights at all. They had only three options in life: marriage, prostitution or becoming a housekeeper in a family member's household. Or if they were really lucky, they could inherit some money or some property. But except for a widow, who could be allowed to keep running her husband's business, women were seldom able to get a career of their own. And let's not forget the many women back in that culture, who actually were slaves and had even fewer options than free women. So no, you can't really compare these women to modern women. And even in our enlightened day and age, people will not always fall in love with the right person... So we shouldn't be that quick to judge Lygia, who still was smart and strong enough to fight her temptation until MV had started to redeem himself, or Eunice or Acte, who had been born into slavery.

I loved 'The Robe" because the female protagonist Diana, was a strong minded woman who was not afraid to speak her mind to two emperors, one of them an unbalanced maniac. Ligeia and Eunice are sickening.

So you missed that Lygia was presented in this way as well? While she didn't speak against Nero, she was good at telling Marcus Vinicius off when he acted out of line. And it was actually a huge improvement from the novel, where she mostly was a way more prissy and demure woman.

Intelligence and purity.

[–] snsurone 8 years ago

It's odd that the OP omitted Poppaea Sabina, Nero's wife.
In this film, she comes across as a one-dimensional bitch, a takeoff of the "femme fatale" of the films noir of the '40's.
She had no reason to hate Christians, only that the man she lusted for was attracted to a Christian woman.
It was that reason only that she convinced her husband to blame the Christians for the burning of Rome.
And her arranging for the vicious bull to kill Lygia in the arena (before it was destroyed by Ursus) was nothing but pure personal malice.
The only good thing Nero did in the whole movie was to kill her!

[–] furienna 8 years ago

It's odd that the OP omitted Poppaea Sabina, Nero's wife. In this film, she comes across as a one-dimensional bitch, a takeoff of the "femme fatale" of the films noir of the '40's. She had no reason to hate Christians, only that the man she lusted for was attracted to a Christian woman. It was that reason only that she convinced her husband to blame the Christians for the burning of Rome.
And her arranging for the vicious bull to kill Lygia in the arena (before it was destroyed by Ursus) was nothing but pure personal malice. The only good thing Nero did in the whole movie was to kill her!

Poppaea's story and motivations were a bit different in the novel though, where it was stated that she saw Lygia as a threat to her person. Nero had already had his first wife killed so he could marry Poppaea, and now she was scared that she too could be killed if a new woman caught enough of his interest. Poppaea only put her moves on Vinicius to make herself sure that she still was more attractive than Lygia (which did not work). And in the novel, Nero and Poppaea also had a baby daughter, who died soon after Lygia had been into their palace. So it became convenient for the court physicians to put the blame on Lygia, who got accused of putting a sickness on the girl. And so the big fire came along and destroyed large parts of the city and killed many people, and there soon was a rumor that Nero was responsible for the disaster. So he was in a great hurry to find somebody else to blame, and the "shady" Christians were the perfect candidates for this. There even was a scene, where a group of Jewish rabbis came to Nero and Poppaea (who alledgedly was a convert to Judaism) and soon talked them to putting the blame for the fire on the innocent Christians (that part seems very antisemtic today, and it was changed already for this 1951 movie).

So yeah, Poppaea was an evil slut in the novel as well. But there still was a bit of depth to her character there, which was lost when the story was adapted into this movie. Patricia Laffan was really great in the role though...

Intelligence and purity.

[–] momurr43 8 years ago

As a man, I've been surprised by the hostility that female posters on this thread have been displaying towards the younger women in this story. But rather than go into any of these cases in detail I have a few questions to ask about some women in the real world whose behaviour is far more baffling to me than the behaviour of Lygia, Eunice, Poppaea or even Acte.

1) Why do some single women persist in a relationship with a married man when there is little realistic hope that he will leave his wife for them?

2) Why do some women, single or married, cover up for a male partner when they discover that he has perpetrated some awful crime?

3) Why do some single women fall in love with - and even marry - an imprisoned male criminal who they never previously knew, whose crime/s may be repellent, and who may even be unlikely to ever be set free?

Such women may be (mercifully) rare, but they seem to have few if any male counterparts.

[–] furienna 8 years ago

True, we can give the women of this movie the excuse that they actually lived almost two thousand years ago. But there is plenty of weird stuff happening even today...

Intelligence and purity.

[–] triplegrim 8 years ago

Women today fall madly in love with rock star junkies who treat them like *beep* Why would not a much less educated group of women in the ancient Rome fall for these riich alpha males with their palaces and educated manners? A senator like Petronius was basically a demi god back then. He had his own busts for crying out loud.