MovieChat Forums > Ace in the Hole (1951) Discussion > Can't accept the major plot point

Can't accept the major plot point


I've seen the movie several times and I probably would put it on my all-time favorites list. But I don't for one reason: jerk Tatum convinces Sam Smollett (lead rescue/mining/engineer expert guy) to drill from the top.

Yeah, I'm not the only one to criticize this plot point. On the other hand, I am surprised how many reviews ignore or gloss over it, because it is the most important hurdle to overcome.

There is absolutely nothing for Smollett to gain by agreeing to prolong a rescue effort. Rescuing is part of his job description. He's not a novice. His first thought was to get the guy out as fast as possible. Yet he changes his mind almost instantly and decides to stretch it out, without any input other than two non-engineers? That's beyond ridiculous. No one who understands the dangers of mining better than most everyone else would risk their reputation so irrationally.

I can accept how everyone else could have been manipulated for various reasons. But man, you cannot have the Smollett guy just going along for the ride.

reply

Well, the sheriff did threaten Smollett with his job if he didn't do so. To send him back to his truck-driving days. It also seemed like the sheriff was responsible for getting Smollett the position too. If you want to believe the sheriff had that much power to manipulate others, then it shouldn't really matter with the engineer either. Since the whole of it took place in the small town setting, you just have to figure the laws and power heavily resided within the sheriff. I guess?

"Kubrick was the Tarantino of his time." - New Age film historian

reply

Eh, just an aside about that "Kubrick was the Tarantino of his time." That's like saying Mozart was the Elton John of his time. Here's a better one to consider: "We throw around the word 'genius' today like it's a nickel, when in fact, it should be more like a manhole cover.'

reply

Damn, I never saw this till now. Yeah, that quote was taken from an Amazon review on a Kubrick film. Ridiculous, isn't it? Made me feel like puking up a lung or two.

RetardoArona, gone but not forgotten.

reply

Yeah, because Quentin Tarantino is such an awful filmmaker. Great analysis.

Anton Chigurh is dead and Spider-Man 3 is superior in every way to Funny Games.

reply

[deleted]

Nobody said he's awful.

He's not even close to being the best filmmaker at work now. And he gets compared to All Time Greats.

reply

Tarantino can't be beat if revenge porn is your thing.

reply

Comparing Mozart to Elton John is a blasphemy. Mozart is comparable to no one as compositor.

Tarantino is a non artist copying and stealing ideas from other movies.

Please try to learn more about music and movie history before writing useless statements.

reply

Do you not get that the comment above is more about how Kubrick was a talent as important and brilliant in cinema that to compare him to Tarantino is to misrepresent what league the two filmmakers are in? The comment was saying that to compare Mozart and Elton John is so grossly out of proportion as to be laughable. It wasn't insulting Mozart - and it wasn't saying Tarantino is as good as Kubrick. Get it?

reply

"Tarantino is a non artist copying and stealing ideas from other movies."

Pretty much the same thing could be said about most good directors. Show me one movie that is similar to Pulp Fiction. I'm not talking about individual scenes or shots that are similar, I'm talking about the whole thing. How about Reservoir Dogs or Inglourious Basterds. They take their influences and piece it together to make their own vision.

If you know your movies, you can see a different director's influence on most movies. Watch Kurosawa, you'll be sure to find a lot of John Ford influence. De Palma, you'll see Hitchcock. Watch PTA, you'll see Scorsese and Altman. Watch the Coens, you'll see Kubrick, etc.

reply

[deleted]

Except, I don't see a lot of Kubrick in Coens' body of work.

Agree with PTA and De Palma, that's why I believe they are incredibly over-rated along with Tarantino. Calling their works as homages/being influenced is just Euphemism. It's not just influence (influence is healthy), it's plain lack of ideas.

Most of De Palma's works are remakes, most of Tarantino's are mishmashes and I don't even know why PTA attempts to incorporate the techniques used by former greats. PTA continues to delight us by portraying his self-indulgence, as the mood and the scenario for which the original used those techniques would've been completely different to what PTA had done with them and in the end would end up highly unsuitable.

reply

[deleted]

Comparing Tarantino to Kubrick is doing a massive disservice to a great filmmaker. Granted, I'm not quite as big on Kubrick as some, but he's a truly great filmmaker and, while Tarantino has done a few good things, he's most certainly not a truly great filmmaker, so I just don't see any room for comparison at all. Not to mention that they're about as different as any two American filmmakers are going to get, unless someone wants to pull out a Waters/Lynch comparison while we're at it.

reply

Re-watch the scene in which Tatum and the Sheriff tell the miner to drill. When he resists the Sheriff tells him that he's the reason he's a mine supervisor in the first place, implying that he'd fire Smollett if he didn't agree to drill.

reply

True, it's made known that the sheriff carries some serious authority. I should revise this thread title, because in theory, this explanation fits fine within the context of the story. I think the reason I gloss over it is because the movie does. Everywhere else, the story properly unfolds through the characters - including how we realize that the sheriff chucked ethics out the window a long time ago.

But we need to see him (or any unethical major character) actually swing his weight around. Otherwise:

1.) The character isn't fully developed. It takes zero effort to let the audience know that someone is a jerk. In the case of the sheriff here, he agrees to screw with the rescue. OK, case closed. He's a jerk. But compare him to the reporter, who has also chucked his ethics. We aren't just told that, we see him in the act of chucking quite often.

2.) More importantly, the storytelling runs into trouble. If we know that the sheriff is an unethical jerk, why would that be important? It wouldn't be, unless his ethical lapses affect the story. Technically, he doesn't have to be unethical all the time. He might be that way with his wife but never his job, or with some parts of his job and not all, etc. But the power to control an engineer in this situation is so super-colossal. Just because you're an unethical jerk doesn't mean you get that kind of power.

Maybe that power was shown earlier and I missed it? I don't think that happened. Because even though the sheriff apparently had it all along, it always sounds like it's coming out of left field during that one important scene (which is about the worst time for something like that happen.)

The rest of the narrative is pretty dang solid. But all that stuff relies on the stall tactic, and I've never noticed it had much or any context to it.

reply

The sherriff is in a precarious position with the election looming, so he's calling in all his favors from people who owe their positions to him. I don't see why this is such a hurdle to cross.

reply

I disagree. Smollet is one of the best written characters in the movie and the scene where he tells Tatum and the Sheriff "You can't go in that way now" is one of the best in the movie. He's not taking any more orders from these two clowns wrestling in their skivvies. Enough is enough. He's giving the orders now and no more lives will be lost.

The Criterion edition was released last year around the time of the Utah mining disaster where they wasted a week drilling from the top like in the movie. But after that they sent rescuers in through front and many died when it collapsed. If the state of Utah had Smollet running the show those rescuers would be alive today.

reply

Sheriff to Tatum: "Smollett's my man, and he's taking my orders."

reply

Or even better. Why would the woman stay? I mean, all she is getting is lots and lots of money. They never really explain that.

reply

yeah, really, drew-155, i agree with you.

also why do they never tell us how to weave an Indian rug? i mean, that's a dangling plot point if ever i saw one.

reply

Jinx, I just had to tell you: you made me laugh aloud when I read your "also" comment. Very funny, indeed! Thanks for the giggle. :)

reply

thank you!

i must, however, give all props to drew-155, who is my sarcasm idol here at imdb.
-------------------------
jigsaw falling into place
there is nothing to explain

reply

The only thing I find strange about the movie is how thousands of people gather outside the place where Leo was trapped. Even a circus was going on outside it? Come on.

reply

This has nothing to do with the original thread, but I missed something else in the film: how is Tatum bleeding? I rewinded the video several times and could not catch the moment he was pierced in his side. Can somebody help me on this?

reply

1. The engineer was a small town Hick. He's not too smart and does what's told.
2. He feared for his job.
3. He was enticed by the prospect of celebrity.
4. He wanted his face in the papers.


It's not a "major plot point", it's all completely consistent with the tone of the film. It's a morality tale. The chracters are all painted with broad brushstrokes.


"Rape is no laughing matter. Unless you're raping a clown."

reply

"This has nothing to do with the original thread, but I missed something else in the film: how is Tatum bleeding? I rewinded the video several times and could not catch the moment he was pierced in his side. Can somebody help me on this?"



SPOILER











It's in the scene where Tatum gives Leo's wife Leo's anniversary present - the fur. She had been cutting her hair, scissors in hand. We see use the scissors to unwrap the gift of the fur. Tatum makes her wear it, she doesn't want to. He attacks her, knocking her onto the bed and strangling her with the fur. "I can't breathe!" she says. "Neither can Leo!" he answers, and continues strangling her. It's then that she stabs him with the scissors she desperately grabs from the bed where she tossed them moments before.

The exact moment is so clearly indicated in the score it's almost impossible to miss.

reply

Road, when Tatum was choking Leo's wife with the stole,she stabbed him with the scissors
Oh GOOD!,my dog found the chainsaw

reply

according to wikipedia entry on ACE IN THE HOLE:

"In the original script, Tatum colluded with the local sheriff. Joseph Breen of the Hays Code office strongly objected to the on-screen depiction of a corrupt law enforcement officer and insisted Wilder add dialogue making it clear the man eventually would be made to answer for his actions."

This is from the book On Sunset Boulevard: The Life and Times of Billy Wilder, pg. 318

Perhaps this is a contributing reason for your thinking there is a plot hole?

reply

Forget the second-hand and unreliable Wikipedia, I have the book, and its account is at least partly inaccurate -- because Tatum does collude with the corrupt sheriff, who in turn blackmails the engineer into going along with their plan to delay Leo's rescue.

And as far as the audience knows, neither Kretzer nor Smollett is ever made to answer for their actions. We may want to assume that the sheriff loses his reelection bid and consequently Smollett loses his contract with the county, but the only hint of that in the film is that at the end Tatum brings Herbie back to the newspaper office, sits him down at his desk and tells him to write the story. But Herbie has only limited and frankly uncorroborated information from Tatum about his dealings with the sheriff, and as Tatum dies right after it'd be hard for the paper to make such accusations without any proof or more information. (Remember how careful Mr. Boot is regarding what he prints, as he says at the beginning.)

Besides, not much is made of this last action by Tatum -- it's almost incidental to what's going on. The audience may want to believe that Kretzer and Smollett will pay for their acts, but there's no guarantee of this. Not to mention that Lorraine walks off scott-free, and she's the one who stabbed Tatum. One reason so many people disliked this film in 1951 is that most of these detestable characters seemed to get away with their actions.

reply

and If you doubt the Sherriff's corruption later in the film the Albuuerque newspaper publisher voiced that he had been suspicious of the Sherriff for a long time

Oh GOOD!,my dog found the chainsaw

reply

Yes, and he tells Tatum "I think Kretzer's corrupt, no good. One day I'll get the facts and print them." He "thinks"? "One day" he'll get the facts? Hardly sounds like a driven, crusading journalist. Boot may be too cautious for his own good. Given that and Herbie's very limited, and unsubstantiated, information, it's very unlikely Boot would have enough to print against Kretzer. Of course, if they could con Smollett into giving a statement about what had happened, they might have something to go on, but Boot seems too laid back and unadventurous for that.

reply

[deleted]

Yes, but in the production code of the time no one simply gets away with killing someone. There would have to be some reckoning, even if she was let off for having acted in self-defense.

The fact that Tatum essentially let himself bleed to death instead of seeking medical treatment (which would surely have saved his life), and that his death occurred many hours later, was probably viewed by the censors as an intervening act that absolved Lorraine of direct responsibility for murdering him. Even so, she still killed him, and was legally responsible. But since Tatum never told anyone what had happened to him or who did it, and no one else would ever know, Lorraine gets away cleanly and completely, no questions even asked.

By the way, Tatum didn't "go mad" and he didn't nearly strangle her for "going on about silver foxes". He did get mad, enraged in fact, but he wasn't "mad" as in insane, and his anger had little to do with Leo's gift to her of that tatty fox stole. Tatum was infuriated at last by Lorraine's callous disregard of Leo and her mistreatment of and contempt for him. Tossing Leo's gift on the floor and calling it cheap was the final straw for Tatum, who by then was full of self-loathing about what he'd done and hatred for the soulless characters he'd roped into helping him in his scheme. His assault on Lorraine was in part an expression of fury at himself.

reply

Smollett is like the participants in the Milgram experiment. If you asked him on any given day if given this choice as a hypothetical situation, he'd be adamant that he wouldn't choose the drill. However, in the actual situation, when urged on by an authority figure, he finds himself going along. It's a very real quirk in our human nature.

reply

I guess it makes sense that the mining engineer could be originally bullied into this prolongued drilling action, but somehow I`d still have expected him to cut out that painfully slow nonsense and bring the guy out, worrying about the consequences later. Or maybe only continue on the condition he personally gets to see the trapped fella and judge his situation for himself... or something like that.



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

reply

The whole point of this movie is how people are corrupted. Tatum is corrupted by his drive for the big time. Lorriane is corrupted by the promise of enough "dough" to get out of there. The sheriff is corrupted by the promise of being made a hero guaranteed reelection. Smollett is corrupted by fear of losing his contracting business and the hope of becoming "the biggest contractor in the state", as Tatum says.

Of course, all these people are corrupt to begin with, even Smollett (he got his present job through Sheriff Kretzer). But even the good people are corrupted, at least for a time: Herbie by the lure of a big city newspaper job; Boot by huge circulation; even Leo by the prospect of becoming a hero in the papers. The carnival people, songwriters, the Indians, all the hucksters are corrupted by the prospect of easy bucks. The spectators are corrupted by flocking to the scene of a disaster and turning it into a zoo.

Everything in this film follows that central plot point. I really don't see how the characters' motivations aren't obvious, or that their actions or behavior are somehow not adequately explained. Smollett is one of the most blatant examples of this absence of morality, and how he gets pulled into this web of deceit and selfishness, even if reluctantly and with a flash of conscience. In a way, that makes him even worse than someone like Tatum or Sheriff Kretzer: they're thoroughly morally bankrupt anyway and behave accordingly. But Smollett shows some sense of right and duty, yet drops it like a coward when he's simultaneously threatened and offered the chance to become even bigger in the business.

reply

Actually I think he is a bit of a novice, though. Remember the sheriff's comment about ... last year you were a truck driver, wanna be that again? Or something like that.

Besides, I don't see what's so hard to accept about a small-town foreman or whatever not wanting to lose his job. He's in the sheriff's pocket.

reply

Yes, and that's the point. It may be understandable that Smollett wants to hold on to the construction business he's built up with Sheriff Kretzer's patronage. It's also understandable that he could succumb to the prospect Tatum laid out for him of becoming "the biggest contractor in the state".

But understanding these natural human impulses doesn't mean he doesn't realize he's doing the wrong thing. He knows perfectly well what Tatum's plan -- going through the top of the mountain -- will mean. He even argues with them for a bit before the threats of losing his present position and the promises of even bigger things get to him.

Smollett may not be evil, but he's something that may be worse: an amoral man complicit with evil due to his own lack of character and integrity. Ultimately he's an unethical coward, and worse, unable to acknowledge his own culpability and guilt. Later on, when he tells Tatum and Kretzer that it's too late to switch and get Leo out through the cave, he tries to weasel out of his part of the responsibility by telling them (roughly), "Don't look at me. I never wanted to go in through the top in the first place. I never wanted to be part of this whole thing."

reply

Strikes me as a pretty accurate depiction of human nature, actually. If Smollett had been a real engineer or a seriously educated contractor with at least some engineering ability, convincing himself that he shouldn't drill from the top would've been a way lower bar for him to clear. But he wasn't; he was a truck driver who was now a contractor. With him being reassured that Leo was a tough guy who could easily last that many days, it's not so hard to see how he could convince himself -- against his own better judgment -- that taking more time to drill from the top, rather than going in through the shaky existing shaft, might actually be better, and that he really didn't have the expertise to push back against that proposition. And, of course, there was also the fact that both carrot and stick were laid out (promise of bigger business, v. going back to being a truck driver).

So, lacking self-perceived authority to make the decision; being convinced that either way, the outcome probably would be okay; weak or "leadable" personality; translation into personal consequences both good and bad.

And then, as you say, when he tries to weasel out of responsibility later, that's also human nature for somebody who's made a decision like this. After he had abandoned the decision to do what he believes to be the right thing, he then uses the fact of that abandonment to say "Hey, don't look at me."

reply

I agree completely with everything you say, with a slight demurral about the notion that, after caving to the Sheriff's and Tatum's pressure, Smollett might conclude "that taking more time to drill from the top, rather than going in through the shaky existing shaft, might actually be better".

I don't think he ever really thought going this way would be better. Even after he acquiesces, he looks at the two and says, "But that fella in there -- seven days." It's only after that that Tatum reassures him that Leo is a rugged character (the doctor told him that himself), and that "he'll get the best of care" as the Sheriff nods with cynical concern.

Smollett is always clearly doubtful. He may not be an engineer but he isn't merely a truck driver: he knows building and excavation and is completely aware of what they're doing. He goes along to protect himself but knows full well that going through the cave would have been the right way. His self-doubt is obvious, which is at once laudable -- he doesn't lie to himself or just not give a damn about Leo the way Tatum and the Sheriff do -- yet at the same time more detestable, because he creates no illusions for himself, and he's not the uncaring cynic the other two are. He realizes all along he's doing the wrong thing for selfish reasons, and never pretends otherwise, but goes ahead anyway.

reply

I mean "better" as in "safer." Sorry, I was too nonspecific. And I don't think he started with that notion; being honest with himself, he would've understood that his first inclination was that as long as the existing shaft was shored properly, it wasn't particularly unsafe, and it would get the guy out a helluva lot faster. But he allows his judgment to be hijacked.

I didn't mean to imply that he was ever totally convinced. I meant that he simply relinquished control and stopped trying to push back, and to do it he had to adopt a kind of artifice about how "good" the decision might turn out to be. Giving up control and treating it as operational "truth" is not the same as actually believing it, and I agree he really knows he's doing the wrong thing. I do agree completely that this is far worse than being actually convinced but turning out to be wrong.

reply

Well, "better" or "safer" convey pretty much the same thing in this context. I think my take is only marginally different from yours, but perhaps a significant margin nonetheless.

I would say that Smollett doesn't so much allow his professional judgment to be hijacked as smothered. The other two simply overrule him, blackmail him, and he's left with no alternative. Or, one could say his judgment was hijacked in the sense that he was coerced by Tatum and Kretzer into doing what they wanted, but not hijacked in the sense that he actually deluded himself into believing (or pretending to believe, or simply not caring) that going through the top was the better way.

Tatum and Kretzer were concerned only with themselves and how using Leo could promote their careers, so like most amoral people they turned off any conflicting thoughts and just let themselves believe that all would turn out well in the end. Smollett would not of his own volition have prolonged Leo's suffering, and he never pretended he was doing the "correct" thing in the way he conducted the rescue effort. He didn't shut off his conscience the way the others did, which is why his giving up control, as you so rightly put it, in a way made him morally more despicable than Tatum and the Sheriff.

reply