MovieChat Forums > Ace in the Hole (1951) Discussion > I have a problem with Leo developing . ....

I have a problem with Leo developing . . . (spoilers)

posted 8 years ago by jgroub
7 replies | jump to latest

. . . pneumonia like that. He was visited by the doc on the first day, and the doc gave him all sorts of pills for him to be in the situation he was in. They would have noticed the pneumonia - or at least that he was having some sort of problem - a long time before he was in the condition he was in when the doc says he's only got 12 hours left.

Even at that point, they were able to get him oxygen; I'm sure they could get him whatever antibiotics and other treatment was available for pneumonia at that time, too. Plus, he was a young, healthy man; the doctor called him pretty tough. He wouldn't be dead in 6 days.

I found this hard to believe.

And don't get me started on Tatum dying from that little stab wound.

I want the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

[–] hobnob53 8 years ago

Billy Wilder actually did extensive research and consultation with doctors on how a man in Leo's position -- his literal position -- for 6 or 7 days might die, including the development and progression of pneumonia. Apparently it was quite possible for Leo to die of the condition in that period of time, treated or not. People die of pneumonia today while undergoing treatment in a hospital, so dying of it in a cave 65 years ago, with less effective care, is hardly impossible.

Also, Tatum got a lot more than "a little stab wound". Lorraine jabbed a very long scissors straight into him, and pretty deeply. It was probably a survivable wound if he'd gone to a hospital right away but of course Tatum deliberately allowed it to go untreated and bled to death. But this wasn't some tiny wound, as his difficulty moving around and the amount of blood he ultimately lost make plain.

[–] jgroub 8 years ago

Interesting again! I don't know if you remember me, but we had quite the tussle a few years ago about whether Louis in Casablanca was gay. I probably shocked, shocked a bunch of people by your changing my mind about that.

Anyway, about Tatum first: as I mentioned in another post, it seems to me that if he was bleeding so badly from the stab wound that he could die from it, then there would have been blood - everywhere. Soaking through his shirt, through that jacket, making much more than that little stain on his pants. And everyone around him, the priest, the drill workers, Herbie - hell, even the guy 28 rows back in the crowd around the mountain - everyone would have seen it, grabbed this guy and forcibly taken him to a hospital.

Yes, it's that damned Code again, where people dying don't bleed all over everything. But having just watched it for the first time, it's annoying.

As for the pneumonia thing, I'm still not buying it. Yes, I understand that people could die from it. I get that; I accept your information, I accept that medical science back then said it was possible. But Leo was tough. The doc himself said so. People dying from pneumonia are the old, the very young, the already sick with something else. Not a tough guy like Leo.

And not a tough guy like Leo who is already being given medicines beforehand, including a spread of antibiotics, to prevent him from getting the very pneumonia he's coming down with. Someone like Leo is only going to die if he believes he has nothing to live for. And that's not what Tatum was pumping into him. He was telling him about the huge crowds pulling for him, how those huge crowds were literally putting thousands into Leo's pocket. No sir, not buying it.

I want the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

[–] hobnob53 8 years ago

First, I certainly do remember you, jgroub. We've talked often. It's always interesting with you, which is why I was glad to see you'd posted here. You and I may disagree sometimes, but we also agree sometimes, and we seem to keep things civil and on point -- which is what matters. Here's to great discussions!



Again, we're discussing Tatum bleeding to death elsewhere, so we'll leave that for other threads.

From reading Wilder's biography, he wanted to make sure that what he was writing into the movie was plausible and based on medical facts, and evidently it all was. Whether Leo absolutely certainly would have died under such circumstances may be debatable -- as you say, he was a tough guy, he did get some medical care, maybe he could have lived. I don't read the movie as indicating that Leo's death was inevitable, only that it was something that could happen, as indeed it certainly could. So even if you want to consider it unlikely, it can't be said to be impossible, so Wilder wrote a finish that finished Leo. Plausible and possible is all that matters.

Have you had pneumonia? I have, twice in succession because I thought I was over it the first time. No fun, and I wasn't trapped in a cave.

One other complicating factor is all the dust Leo had to be breathing, which certainly would have compromised his lungs and airways further. We see how much dust is in the air in that place.

Interesting that this was the first time you saw this film. It's one of my absolute favorites.

[–] jgroub 8 years ago

Hey, thanks. You too. It's nice to be remembered; even nicer when you're appreciated. You're easy to remember - your screen name reminds me of HBO.

Anyway, no I haven't had it. Sorry to hear that you have. I guess it's pretty rough, huh?

My problem is that there's no warning signs in the movie. No little throwaway something that shows that he's getting sick, or is about to get sick, etc. The first we hear of it, not only is he sick, but he's going to die in just 12 hours. That's really my problem with his dying like that. No foreshadowing whatsoever.

To me, that's just bad movie-making. Now, Wilder is great, we all know this. And this is still a good movie, but mostly on the strength of Douglas' and Lorraine's performances. (The actor never went onto anything huge - I thought she was really good. But maybe she's like the one in Asphalt Jungle/Singing In The Rain - that accent held her back?) It's standard Storytelling 101; especially standard Hollywood Storytelling 101: there ought to be something to tip us off to the fact that this is coming before it comes.

I've only seen the movie just once, and you've obviously seen it a lot - is there any early tipoff?

I want the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

[–] hobnob53 8 years ago

You're absolutely right, there is no tip-off to Leo's coming down with pneumonia, and I totally agree with you, that is a problem with the movie. Watching it again the other day that fact struck me -- it had occurred to me before, but you make me realize it might be more of a problem than I've usually considered it. (I first saw this movie in the late 60s, under its alternate title The Big Carnival.)

Anyway, it would have been better to have had some gradual tip-off that Leo's health is failing before we suddenly see him with chronic pneumonia. Realism aside, it would have made for a more nerve-wracking experience for the audience -- one more thing to set them on edge and get them caught up in the race between the drill and Leo's life. More and longer emphasis on this point would have been better for the story.

Still, while this is a problem, I don't find it as crippling to the film as you do. It's not really bad movie-making, just a lapse in how Wilder had the narrative unfold. I've had discussions on the site of Wilder's next film, Stalag 17, which is shot through with such logical and narrative inconsistencies. Those I find annoying. But this problem, not giving us a more gradual indication of Leo's deteriorating health, doesn't strike me as being too serious. Better they had had a tip-off, yes, but the absence of it isn't too important -- to me, anyway -- and certainly doesn't ruin anything in the movie for me. But everyone reacts to things differently, and I understand your point.

The actress who played Lorraine was Jan Sterling (1921-2004). She was actually from a wealthy New York family and studied acting in London at RADA. She somewhat overdid her accent for this film, but she did find herself often typecast as either sluts or dumbbells (or, like here, a combination of both). She starred on stage in Born Yesterday and most critics thought she was better than Judy Holliday, who also did it on stage but got the film role, which won her an Oscar. (Curiously, Sterling married actor Paul Douglas, who had played opposite Holliday in the play but was also passed over for the lead in the film version.) Sterling did some good movies in the 50s, and had an Oscar nomination for Supporting Actress in The High and the Mighty (1954), but her career faded a bit as the decade wore on. After her husband died suddenly of a heart attack in 1959 (he was just about to co-star in Wilder's The Apartment, and was replaced by Fred MacMurray), Sterling worked mainly on TV. She moved to London in the 70s and lived with the expatriate American actor Sam Wanamaker for many years before eventually returning to the States. She was one of those actresses who was highly thought of but whom the studios kept limiting the kinds of roles they offered her, and she appeared in only a very few movies after 1960. Sadly, her only son died just three months before she did.

Some other of her films I'd like to commend to you include:

Johnny Belinda (1948)
Caged (1950)
Mystery Street (1950)
Union Station (1950)
The Mating Season (1951)
Rhubarb (1951)
Appointment With Danger (1951)
Sky Full of Moon (1952)
Split Second (1953)
Pony Express (1953)
The High and the Mighty (1954)
1984 (1956)
The Harder They Fall (1956), Humphrey Bogart's last film.

Ace in the Hole is widely considered her best film and performance. But the ones above (and others I didn't mention) offer her in a variety of roles and genres. She was a very good actress.

Oh, on a personal note, yes, I guess the pneumonia was kind of rough; thanks for asking. On top of that I contracted sinusitis around the same time so have been left with some breathing problems, including a mild case of asthma. I guess it's made me more sympathetic to Leo's plight!

[–] jgroub 8 years ago

Damn! You know a lot about Jan Sterling! I have never seen any - not a one! - of those movies you listed. I'll keep my eyes open, though. I enjoyed her performance here.

I guess it's made me more sympathetic to Leo's plight!

See, I think that's a big part of why we see the two characters differently. Leo, Shmeo; sure I feel bad for the guy, but he's a shnook. I mean, I don't want him dead, but it's sort of like when you hear about those people who just happen to be hiking near the border of a country we're not exactly on good terms with (Iran, North Korea) and then their army captures them and holds them prisoner forever. I have absolutely zero sympathy for any of those people. Mind you, I tend to think they're CIA plants or something, but even if they're not, they're first class, grade A schmucks for doing what they've done. And I put in that book anyone who goes 300 feet deep in a cave to get an Indian pot worth 50 bucks.

On the other hand, my being in a marital situation very much like Lorraine gives me great sympathy for her character, even if she isn't the nicest person in the world.

Now, since you have slandered - SLANDERED I SAY! - the great Stalag 17, it's off with me to that board to see what you're saying. See you over there.

I want the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

[–] hobnob53 8 years ago

You and I share similar (maybe not quite identical) views on the type of people who do stuff like hike into North Korea or other needlessly stupid and selfish things. I have very limited sympathy for willfully stupid people.

My sympathy for Leo is not so much due to what he got himself into -- he'd been repeatedly warned not to go further in -- but for what's done to him by greedy people afterward. It's been pointed out that even Wilder holds Leo in some sort of contempt: when Tatum first sees him he takes Leo's picture then pops the used flashbulbs out onto Leo without any consideration, and after Leo dies everyone just kind of forgets about him; long before then he's just become this kind of incidental prop in the story, and this is quite deliberate on Wilder's part.

It isn't so much that I know a lot about Jan Sterling specifically, just a lot about older movies and the people who made them. I show classic films each week during the summer and discuss and describe them, and have been doing this for many years. As to Sterling's movies, I'll narrow the ones I listed to a few manageable ones: Split Second, The High and the Mighty, The Harder They Fall. They're all readily accessible, and Sterling is prominent in each. But I'd go on from there to see some of the others I mentioned.

Be glad to see you over on Stalag 17. The kinds of posts I referred to were made some time ago, and are scattered around, not all on one thread or subject.