That's some good stuff! As far as Lucy, yes I can see the writers incorporating Lucille Ball's attempts to hit it big in show biz. I recall reading about her nickname, "The Queen of the B's" when she languished all those years in B movies.
I always wonder if Desi's reputation as a "player" was well known back then. The writers focused a lot on his career as a handsome celebrity surrounded by beautiful women and all the opportunities he had to cheat.
Was Desi being a good sport about those episodes? Of course, in the pre-internet days their audience probably thought the Arnaz marriage was as happy as the Ricardo one. It's doubtful anyone thought Lucy's fears reflected Lucille Ball's real fears about her marriage.
Hollywood churned out publicity that was only favorable to the stars or acceptable to middle America. I remember my mom telling me that Rock Hudson had been married once. It wasn't until years later that I found out that the studios "arranged" those types of marriages.
With Ethel, the scene strikes me as a bittersweet. Ethel says that she's deep. She "feels things". In reality, Vivian Vance did feel things deeply. I just wonder how she felt playing such a scene.
The COCKTAIL bar? LOL, I admit I never caught the reference to waitresses. True, Fred was never portrayed as a drinker. But I never imagined Ethel worried about Fred successfully hitting on young cocktail waitresses.
Remember Minnie Finch and the "girls"?
Ethel tells a worried Lucy that Ricky wouldn't be dating "those three". She says, "Fred yes, Ricky no."
Hard to believe that Ethel thought Fred would have the opportunity to step out with young women.
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
There are several episodes where BOTH Lucy and Ethel are threatened by other women. "Vacation From Marriage" and "Desert Island" are two examples.
Desi a good sport??? I'd say BALL was the good sport. And, yes, from what I've read, "inside" Hollywood knew of Desi's exploits during ILL and even before.
I think you're reading way too much into Ethel's line in "Lucy Writes a Novel." It's Ethel's ego that's getting stoked. Plus the line is a setup for Fred's stomach ache gag.
Vance certainly was more astute and worldly than Ethel. She was married four times (!), suffered several breakdowns, but was also known to be bitchy. She NEVER would've wound up married to a Fred Mertz! Even her sister once said she didn't understand how Vance had any friends because of "the mouth on her.". I don't necessarily equate " sensitive" with any of the above, especially in the way Ethel is trying to bring herself off for Lucy's novel. Really doubt Vance saw any relation.
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[email protected] (5497)
4 years ago
Forgot about those two episodes! True, Ethel felt threatened. But you forgot another instance where she worried about Fred's fidelity.
Fred sends flowers to Lucy. He accidentally signs his name instead of Ricky's. Ethel reads the card and thinks Lucy is having an affair with Fred! Really? Lucy is married to a hot Latin hunk and she's hot for Fred? lol
I think Ethel's jealousy is based more on her lack of self confidence than in reality. What women would really be chasing Fred? lol I know that a lot of old, fat bald guys get younger women, but those are the guys who are multi-millionaires!
I always thought it was sad that Ethel thought that Fred was the best she could do.
Yes, Lucille Ball was a good sport or at least very professional in playing scenes of jealousy over Ricky's supposed interest in other women.
But if I was Desi, I might have asked the writers to avoid episodes that made me look like an adulterer. Maybe I'm just more sensitive than he was. lol
I didn't mean to make it appear that I was reading too much into Ethel's self revealing comments, e.g., I'm moody, I feel things.
I wondered how it felt for Vance to reveal a dark side of Ethel when she herself had a very dark side. Of course she was a professional actress. I don't think she compared Ethel's life with her own.
I think she saw herself as way more desirable than Ethel and didn't like the idea of being "married" to a guy like Bill Frawley.
Wasn't that one of the reasons why she and Frawley hated each other? Didn't he overhear her saying that she did not like the idea of her character being married to such an old guy? I think THAT was something that hurt Vivian Vance's ego! She saw herself as someone way too attractive to have settled for Fred.
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
Vance, for whatever reason, saw herself as "glamorous", and was offended at being cast as frumpy Ethel Mertz. I've never understood WHY she thought herself so pretty. By age 42, when she began the show, she was overweight and matronly. She certainly wasn't the beauty Ball was, but she was a highly respected stage actor. Perhaps she played regal women in the theater. And of course, she sang beautifully. My Mom always thought she was " cute."
Bottom line: had Vance been too beautiful, it wouldn't have been believable that Fred felt he was married to a heavy, matronly 40-something. It WAS believable and that's probably what bugged Vance.
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[email protected] (5497)
4 years ago
Well, most actors have fairly large egos. I suppose Vivian Vance wasn't much different in that regard.
She was cast as the wife of a man who was more than twenty years older than she was. It may have stung her ego.
When I watched all those reruns, I used to think that the Mertzes were roughly the same age. Of course I was just a kid! When I was older, I realized that Fred was a lot older than Ethel.
Vance had to play a lot of scenes that weren't exactly flattering to her self esteem. They made fun of her weight. Fred was always making cracks about it. I never understood that as he was not exactly fit and trim himself!
They made fun of her supposed "big feet". But as I posted a while ago, it was Lucille Ball who had some really big clodhoppers! lol Those flat shoes that she wore (so as not to appear too tall next to Desi) accentuated the fact that she had really big feet.
But it was Ethel who got the insults.
Ethel was never 'glamorous" but I think that's because, next to Ball, she wore frumpy housedresses while Lucy had a wardrobe designed for her which was glamorous. But hey, she was the star!
Actually I think Vance 'cleaned up' very nicely when she was allowed a better wardrobe in the last season and on The Lucy/Desi Comedy Hour.
She had a great pair of legs too. I mentioned that way back in the Connecticut baby chicks episode. Lucy had to crank up the heat and the house was hot. Ethel sported a pair of shorts that showed off her legs.
I wouldn't say that Vivian Vance was the best looking gal, but she was good looking.
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
Great legs?? Uh, yeah, if you ignored her thunder thighs. I also never thought she looked good in pants, especially jeans. But to each their own. Vance was generally attractive and a super great actor.
I never noticed Lucy's big feet before until you mentioned it. And the Italian boss in the grape vineyard certainly notices it (the only time in the series where Ball's dogs are scripted).
Besides being short, Desi had small feet, which I found cute. Funny how he's the only one of the four characters whose physical shortcomings are never in the script (with the exception of his supposedly thinning hair, which was ONLY his imagination). Despite Ball being the beautiful star, RICKY is the glamorous character.
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[email protected] (5497)
4 years ago
Thunder thighs?
Remind me to never wear shorts around you!! lol
Their shortcomings got a mention now and then. Ethel's supposed weight problem was a topic for laughs. But compared to the fatties in the USA today, she was slim.
Ethel referred to Fred as "short, fat and bald" in the Italian wig episode. And she teased him about his age a few times.
An early episode had Lucy trying to diet. But Lucille Ball was carrying some post pregnancy weight. They only made jokes about her "naturally red hair".
Never noticed it, but there weren't any jokes about Ricky's appearance. Lucy only alluded to his ego and what a "big ham" he was.
It's funny that they did a hair loss episode. The Dick van Dyke Show did one about Rob fearing that he was losing his hair. Both men always had full heads of hair. Dick van Dyke still does (in his nineties).
Didn't Vivian Vance finally get it in her contract that she could wear better clothes? In the last season in the Connecticut episodes she finally ditched the frumpy housedresses. NO ONE looks good in those!
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
Ethel wasn't fat??? She was at least 25 pounds overweight for much of the series.
In the second year, especially while Lucy was pregnant, then after she gave birth, Vance was at her slimmest. Look how great she appears in that suit in "Lucy Changes Her Mind" (while they're waiting for Lucy in the opening scene). Maybe the suit isn't great, but it really shows off her trim figure.
By contrast, look at how much weight she's put back on in "Ricky's Movie Offer." No wonder She threatens to sit on Fred!!
I don't think Ethel OR Lucy have nice wardrobe in the Country eps. Ethel just wears jeans jackets/jeans skirts and sandles.
To me, both Fred and Ethel poked fun at each other's weight because they were both overweight.
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[email protected] (5497)
4 years ago
I said "compared to the fatties" of today! lol
Don't forget, the camera adds ten pounds (or so I've heard).
I never really thought that Ethel was so overweight. But remember the Hollywood tour bus episode? Those two gals really were big! Or Teensy and Weensy?
In the eighties a show like Roseanne featured two leads who looked like much of modern America. Back in the fifities, that wasn't exactly the norm.
Actually I thought Vivian Vance put on some weight by the time they did The Lucy Show.
In the country episodes, both women really did dress very casually. A lot of Lucy's chic outfits were fine for Manhattan, but they probably would've looked out of place in a country setting.
Ethel's wardrobe wasn't great. But it was a bit more youthful looking. I suppose I always equate housedresses with "old". When I was a kid, my grandmothers and all the older ladies in the neighborhood dressed that way.
When I look back on it, I realize that a lot of them weren't older than fifty or so. But that "look" is definitely aging.
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Gubbio (3893)
4 years ago
Vance, for whatever reason, saw herself as "glamorous", and was offended at being cast as frumpy Ethel Mertz. I've never understood WHY she thought herself so pretty.
We've touched on this before, but I have to say it: I get so annoyed at Vance's attitude -- thinking she was all that and a bag of chips!
Vance was pleasant looking, but no beauty. Desi plucked her from obscurity and made her a star. And, all she did was bitch.
I'll give her her mental issues and the stress she felt with Frawley, but Christ, woman, have a little humility! 🙄
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
She ate the bag of chips.
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Gubbio (3893)
4 years ago
The WHOLE BAG ? ! ❓❓❗❗ 😲 😱
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
Mike, you love Judy and ILL. Remind me again why you never got into Bewitched. How about Get Smart?
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Gubbio (3893)
4 years ago
Hi, Gary,
Bewitched: I watched it occasionally in its initial run, and I didn't dislike it. But, it never "grabbed me" as Must See TV. I don't think I ever watched the reruns.
Get Smart: I don't think I ever watched a single episode. The premise didn't interest me.
You'll disagree, but I saw a lot of these sitcoms as no different than "The Brady Bunch" or "Three's Company." Just pap to fill time and the airwaves.
As for "Bewitched," I take it you admired Liz. That makes a big difference in drawing one's attention, when you like a lead performer.
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gary4movies (174)
4 years ago
Yes, Bewitched and Get Smart were very well written (at least the first four years). And Get Smart was clever satire on the James Bond films. Both were superior to "The Brady Bunch", which was a kiddie show, but didn't offer much to adults.
In my opinion, " Three's Company" is the all-time worst successful sitcom ever produced. Awful.
Yes, Liz was so special to me, and I adore Barbara Feldon as agent 99 on Get Smart.
We all like different shows. Who knows really why one grabs you and another doesn't?
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Gubbio (3893)
4 years ago
And Get Smart was clever satire on the James Bond films.
You reminded me why "Get Smart" didn't appeal to me: I never had any interest in the whole James Bond franchise.
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