Joe kind of deserved to be killed
The guy was a dick.
shareSo did Norma. She was a BIGGER dick and she wasn't even a dude.
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MovieChat Forums > Sunset Blvd. (1950) Discussion > Joe kind of deserved to be killed
I wouldn't go so far as to say Joe deserved to be killed. All he wanted was a job so he could keep his car and apartment, but Norma sucked him into her life, got him to work for her but didn't pay him, except in clothes, room and board, which was not what he wanted. And then she got rid of his car so he was stuck at her house, and then she threatened suicide when he wanted to leave. He never pretended to love her, he only felt sorry for her and was grateful (at first) that she took an interest in him. But once she vindictively ruined his relationship with Betty, he was done. But she was such an awful person she thought she had the right to kill him over a 6 month, one-sided relationship. Norma was the "d*ck" !
Piney
No, Joe preyed on a mentally ill woman. She was sick.
shareShe only took an interest in him because he was a writer. At least Joe felt some shame at being a "kept" man.
"There will be blood. Oh, yes, there WILL be blood."-Jigsaw; "Saw II"
She did have an obvious break with reality after she shot Joe (assuming of course that it was real and not acting on her part to try to get out of the murder charge), but up until then she appeared sane, if a bit self-involved and narcissistic. She was scheming all the way to the end.
Piney
...Wow I've never even thought of that all being an act. Huh.
That's actually a really interesting take on it...I think she was mentally ill, but this is totally worth a rewatch.
Unapologetic Thomas Barrow Fan
I found it curious that the debtors found his car in Norma's house. And you're right, she most likely purposely told them about it to make him dependent on her.
And he didn't seem to be getting paid by her either.
That theory sounds very much like the type of thing Norma might do, but what's wrong with it is that she'd have had no way of knowing a finance company was trying to repossess it. In their first conversation, Joe tells her:
"I had some trouble with my car. Flat tire. I pulled into your garage until I could get a spare."
Later, Norma vaguely recalls the remark: "There's something wrong with your car, you said."
She could have put 2 and 2 together after discovering he was behind in his apartment rent and, guessing he might be in arrears on the car as well, put Max to work finding out which bank or finance company held the paper on it. But it's just as likely that the repo guys, knowing the specific area in which they lost him, had been going house to house along that stretch of Sunset Blvd to find it.
And she did have Max fix up the unused Isotta Fraschini so they'd have mobility.
Poe! You are...avenged!
Not really. He was trying to survive and, by his own admission, he was going to do the gig and go back to his own life. I think it is well established that Hollywood, like any industry, is about using who you know to further your career. Any successful person you see has done that.
It was a symbiotic relationship that obviously got out of control. Joe thought he had the upper hand but he never really did.
I wouldn't say he deserved it in real-life terms, but in movie terms...yeah. He *was* a dick. I've never watched SB all the way through before and I'm really surprised at what a negative, cutting, mean-spirited, self-absorbed bastard he is (he's certainly more sympathetic in the musical).
Sure, Norma was a flake, and narcissistic (and mentally ill), but Joe was getting what he needed out of the relationship. You sure couldn't tell, though, from how he cut her down in his voiceover. This wasn't a woman who was all alone. She had Max. She had friends. She went out. She had a ton of money. Sure, her narcissism and instability got in the way of her continuing her career (her obsession with her bad script and youthful roles she'd aged out of), but she was hardly out on the street. And she was in love with a much-younger man, her ghost writer.
And yet, Joe would incessantly talk about how pathetic she was, how out of touch, how lonely. And act as if he felt dirty just being touched by her (while taking her money). This from a guy who'd arrived in her garage with a flat tire on a car about to be impounded, who had never hit big and was talking about taking a bus back home. And who was obsessed with his own bad writing as she was.
I don't think it helped that Holden was 32 at this time (and looked older), so every time he talked about being a "kid," I raised an eyebrow.
Betty isn't any better. She's nasty to Joe one minute, hitting on him the next, and screw her hapless fiance (who is also Joe's friend). Or Norma. Plus, on top of her and Joe cheating together on their partners, what Betty really wants out of Joe is for him to help boost her to *her* big break. Yeesh.
I can't help thinking that Billy Wilder intended all this. Over and above the fact that this is a film noir (which means everybody's a bit nasty), there are too many conversations between reflective older and oblivious younger people in Hollywood, and too much self-absorption from the younger ones, to make the acidic subtext about 1950s Hollywood's amnesia of its own history an accident.
The funny thing is that so much of it has come full circle. Thanks to TCM, AMC, DVDs/VHS, and streaming services like Netflix, people today have far more of a chance to watch the Silent Era and Pre-Code films than people did in the 1950s. So, a lot of those who frequent channels like TCM might watch this film and scratch their heads over people in Hollywood not knowing about someone big like Gloria Swanson, or appreciating her career.
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idk man, he didnt deserve to die, maybe get shot in the foot or arm, but not ded
shareIn a way, dying was a small mercy to Joe. After all of the moral compromises and breaches of honor that he had made throughout the film's narrative, how could he go on living with himself?
For all the negative judgments Joe is receiving from the OP and other comments in this thread, Joe was his own worst critic and enemy and, if possible, would reply "I'll see your 'd***' and raise it 'heel and worthless giggolo!"'
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The only thing he did wrong was date Betty, and he even left her so she can get married to the man she engaged.
Otherwise, I don't see what he did wrong with Norma. He was desperate for money. She was desperate for a subservient companion. It was never a genuine relationship.
Then, before his murder, Joe decides to let Betty go back to Arnie, gives Norma back all of the gifts before going back to his old job. It's then that Joe finds his integrity. Too late, unfortunately.
Annoying the world since 1960!