Can someone help me with an explanation?
I enjoyed the film but do not see a direct or strong relation to the Noir genre.
It feels more like a sports film with an over-worried wife and lousy boxing coach. Plus some small-time hoods thrown into the mix in the final third of the film.
What ‘noir’ am I not picking up on here?
Thanks,
Film noir isn't entirely well understood, by anyone for that matter. The entire genre is somewhat vague, and some films are actually debated as to whether they qualify or not.
I recently watched The Set-Up and I wondered the same thing as you. The only explanation I can offer--that is, the elements of this particular film that garner the film noir tag: the seedy side of boxing-the crooked boxing manager, the fixed fights, the delusional fighters. The ending of the film isn't exactly happy, as Stoker is battered and broken--his dream of making it big as a boxer finished. Stoker himself proves to be a plaintive protagonist--for most of the film he's wondering about his wife's absence and his less-than-stellar past as a boxer.
Because it all has a a dream like quality, its a bout a man wanting to be good in a sick dark world 100% NOIR
shareOf course there all kinds of debate are movies noir? Is Casablanca? Is Sunset Boulevard? Is...Unless the movie Detour, The Killers, Murder, My Sweet or Double Idemenity, the movie is debatable noir.
I do believe it is film noir because it was remarkable "B" movie that shows a good nature fighter slowly being beaten down by a immoral world. The movie did not have a spider woman (over-worried wife) nor did heavily accent German film-making (The boxing scenes were enough) so it does not fit the formula perfectly. However, the idealist boxer thinking this is last big chance to make it really lends tension to final fight. On top of that, the boxer is duped by the manager to lend tension of the fight as well.
I've never considered The Set-Up as noir, but a very fine drama. However, if that's what made it available on dvd then they can call it whatever they want.
An argument can be made that Stoker is caught up inexorably in Fate beyond his choosing and knowledge, and that makes the situation quintessential noir.
"Fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an emergency."
"An argument can be made that Stoker is caught up inexorably in Fate beyond his choosing and knowledge, and that makes the situation quintessential noir."
If that's your argument, then "Wizard of Oz" is film noir. The whole movie is based on Dorothy being caught up inexorably in fate beyond her choosing and knowledge. Do you think she wanted a mean neighbor that hated her dog? Do you think she wanted to almost die in a tornado? Do you think she wanted to have to deal with a trio of freaks, a wicked witch, and winged monkeys just so she could get home? Every event in that movie manipulated Dorothy. And when she finally finds the wizard, she realizes that she has been duped and there's nothing to believe in anymore.
Plus, somebody above mentioned that because The Set-Up had a dreamlike quality, it was 100% noir. If Wizard of Oz isn't dreamlike, what movie is? A movie needs more than "dream like" to be noir.
The bottom line is that this is a crime drama that revolves around boxing. No traditional noir elements are present. It is not noir.
This movie doesn't have any of the elements of film noir, other than some seedy characters and locations.
Instead, it's what I call a "gritty urban drama".
"The night was sultry."
Fatalism... A story about a man stuck in the mechanics of fate which he is doomed to fulfill. His greatest achievement - winning the bout - also means his oblivion. All the more tragic that it he does this unwittingly.
share[deleted]
Here are some of the Noir elements it contains:
1. Fatalism and fate's determination by forces beyond onesself (the coach and the gangsters). The focus on time. The boxing automaton in the shop window. Try as he might to succeed, Stoker was never going to emerge from the story unscathed, as is the boxer's lot. Deliverance, as suggested by Julie, by rejecting fate and embracing self-determination (through quitting boxing), was there for the taking, but Stoker's own stubborn nature wouldn't allow it. In the end he achieved it in his own way, by rejecting corruption, although he was wounded in the process.
2. Cynicism. A world of violence, corruption and crime, peopled by crooks and schemers. The protagonist's livelihood is earned by beating people and being beaten before a baying mob.
3. Cinematography. High contrast, urban, night-time setting with lots of shadows; neon lights and dark alleys. Compare the ending of The Set-Up with that of The Third Man, for instance.
I watched this last night and I to wonder if this was noir. I’ve come to the consultation that it very much relies on noir motifs and visual styles but at the heart of the story it’s a drama that doesn’t play out as a true noir.
Take the 3 archetypal noir protagonists: The detective, the criminal and the victim. Well clearly Stoker falls into the victim category. However he misses the vital ‘victim’ beat. He does not fall into a trap via of moment of weakness. To the contrary it is a moment of strength is what leads him to his downfall (which is not a total downfall but rather a bitter sweet ending). Noir victims like Stoker are at the hands of fatalism. However is was not twist of fate where Stocker makes a pact with the Devil. He did not fall for a broad or get seduced by the promise of money. This is not what led him to a wrong turn. Yes indeed he was trying to achieve glory and money however by noble means.
Also Stoker is happily married and he and his wife have an honest relationship where nether is trying to trick or keeps secrets from the other. This emotional core of the film makes for a dramatic story line but not a noir story. Indeed there is a distinct lack of distrust in woman that other noir films are all but happy to highlight in big red pen. Ok so she doesn’t show at the fight and apologies for this at the end ‘this would never had happened if I’d been there’ but really even if there is a subtle ‘always do as your husband tells you’ message this really isn’t the usual ‘don’t trust a whore it only ever leads to murder’ overblown message that we see in noir time and time again.
If there were a true noir protagonist in the film it would have been his manager as his path was far more ‘noiry’ then Stokers. However the spotlight is clearly on the old time boxer not his manager.
What is very clear is the noir style and approach the film takes. The use of shadows, a story where fate has a bad hand to play, the very essence of the ‘set up’ itself, the foreboding feeling that things are just not gonna turn out good, the Germanic night mare over tones that his wife has, the feeling of entrapment... all of these are key noir ingredients.
However ultimately the film has a much sweeter core then noir. Stoker is a good guy, a noble and strong man that sticks to by what he believes, never swaying from course. The only argument you could put forward is that he is a victim of his own ego for carrying on boxing and searching for one final payoff (just one punch away) when he should have given up. I don’t however think that is strong enough to stand up.
Awesome film though, cinematography is fantastic. Clearly very modern movie making that stands up to today’s contemporary works. I thought it felt very Tarantino-esk actually, or rather (and as usual) the other way round ;)
Definition of FILM NOIR
: a type of crime film featuring cynical malevolent characters in a sleazy setting and an ominous atmosphere that is conveyed by shadowy photography and foreboding background music; also : a film of this type
also
Film genre that offers dark or fatalistic interpretations of reality. The term is applied to U.S. films of the late 1940s and early '50s that often portrayed a seamy or criminal underworld and cynical characters. The films were noted for their use of stark, expressionistic lighting and stylized camera work, often employed in urban settings. The genre includes films such as John Huston's The Maltese Falcon (1941), Jacques Tourneur's Out of the Past (1947), Alfred Hitchcock's Spellbound (1945), and Billy Wilder's Double Indemnity (1944) and Sunset Boulevard (1950). The trend was on the wane by the mid-1950s, but the influence of these films is evident in many subsequent ones, including classics such as Roman Polanski's Chinatown (1974) and Ridley Scott's Blade Runner (1982). More recent examples include L.A. Confidential (1997) and The Man Who Wasn't There (2001).
I think it fits, but it's all opinion, I guess.
What we have here is failure to communicate!share
I am getting sick of these moronic threads questioning whether films are Noir or not when they are quite clearly and obviously Films Noir. The people who cannot see why this is Noir are probably informed by the likes of Miller and other modern creators whose works are labeled as Noir.
Noir is about the seedy sides of life, brutality, fate and violence. It has an ominous and dreamlike atmosphere created by specific photography and lighting. This film has all these hallmarks. Noir doesn't have to be about private detectives, cops or reporters.
Formerly KingAngantyr
Let's not forget that "Film. Noir" is a term applied to certain films after the time they were made. It's not a true "genre" like, say, drama, comedy or tragedy. None of the makers of what are now known as Films Noir actually set out to make a "Film Noir", which is at least partly why the term is so loosely defined. I don't take issue with anyone calling the Set up a Film noir! although I wouldn't disagree with anyone who said it wasn't a noir, either. Sometimes, if it really matters to me to figure out if I think a film is a noir, I'll apply the definition that someone once used to define Art - I know it when I look at it. If you compare Body and Soul to The Set. Up, although the two films have much in common, I would have to say that just by the eyeball test, Body and Soul would not be a noir, but The. Set up would. (Not even taking into account that Bodya nod Soul has a fairly happy ending compared to. The. Set Up.).
I think, as another poster said, in cases like. The Set Up, it's up to the viewer to decide. The Set Up lacks many of the classic noir characteristics...but to me it feels like a noir. And when I'm watching a film noir, it's that feeling that I'm looking for when I want to watch a noir.
"I wrote a poem on a dog biscuit;
And your dog refused to look at it..."
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It is on DVD. I have a copy. :)
This film has plenty of Film Noir elements but like a lot of others, I'm not totally convinced it actually is noir. I'm going with a "probably".
It lacks the sexual motivations present in films like "Double Indemnity" or even "The Maltese Falcon". But it does feature a seedy, unromantic lifestyle and it is presented very much in the noir manner with hard lighting, pithy characterisations and grubby scenery.
Whether it is or isn't Film Noir actually doesn't matter much. It's a feast.
Unless you're a fan of boxing, I don't see the appeal of this movie. It might have made for an interesting short story, but it didn't work (for me) as a feature film.