cocteu is asurrealist or not?
jean cocteu said that he is not a surrealist but i think he was very impressed
of surreal art and impress the surrealist as a avant_garde .
what do think?
jean cocteu said that he is not a surrealist but i think he was very impressed
of surreal art and impress the surrealist as a avant_garde .
what do think?
Cocteau was a storyteller. Thrusting the tale of Orpheus into (relatively) modern times is an interesting storytelling angle, but doesn't make the style of the movie surrealist. The images of persons moving into and through mirrors was simply an element that allowed mortal characters to enter and leave the underworld.
sharecocteau was an existentialist. his works can be very closely connected with other writers of his era such as Samuel Beckett, Eugene Ionesco and Harold Pinter. I love this film. I look forward to seeing the other ones.
sharehe tried to incorporate fatastic elements in his movies. he was not a surrealist like bunuel but he was definitely inspired by him. like "le sang d' un poete" with " Un chien andalou" or the mirror scene with the beauty loking to the beast in a mirror in "la belle et la bete" and the one in the bunuelian film with the young women just looking to a mirror in "l' age d'or". great mirror scenes in this one too.
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Cocteau was generally hated by the surrealists. I studied this film in a module called French Film and Fantasy.
shareBreton was a total control freak, and very jealous of anyone he saw as a rival, such as Tristan Tzara, or, indeed, Cocteau. The fact that he was hated by the surrealists doesn't mean that he wasn't a surrealist, in the sense of "pure psychic automatism". The radio broadcasts in Orphee are clearly surreal, and throughout the influence of surrealism/Freud hangs heavy. Truly great film though!
Dali loved Cocteau and they hung together often. Dali said Cocteau used his, Dali's own method of "Critcal Paranoia" when fashioning his films. Remember the hydocephalic in the act of milking his cranial harp is without compare.
Nothing exists more beautifully than nothing.
I think it is very hard to say what is 'surreal' when it comes to cinema. It confuses me aynyway, I don't quite understand what it means to say this film is surreal or that film is surreal. The edges just seem too woolly, for example Orphee has been described as surreal and not, and I can see arguments for both. For me, Un Chien Andalou seems more 'surreal' than L'Age d'Or, but who is to say that L'age d'Or is not a surreal film?
sharein many ways Cocteau was the antithesis of a surrealist. he told traditionally structured stories and borrowed from classical literature for both subject and form. in some respects he was an establishment figure, the paradigm of a bohemian and aesthete . it's an easy trap to fall into, labelling anything that's out of the ordinary from the first half of the 20th c. as being 'surreal', a lazy, misused catch all.
sharepeter, I completely agree - about the term being misused.
shareWas he a surealist? Someone has already mensioned his assosations with a certain Spanish artist but was he a surealist?
In 'the testement of Orphee' he represents a series of dream images set during the time between the expolsion of a chimney set for demolition and it's fall but a surealist?
A recent artical in fortean Times peged him not a surealist but as an Alchamest. It argued that he used alchamic and magical theory to change people's perceptions and to therefore chasnge the political climate. Perhaps we should ask if he was a magision.
The term surrealism has become totally subjective. Somewhere (around the time of Bunuel) it branched off from its Oxford Dictionary definition and became a term that described a movement. In cinema, the Surrealist movement (note the capital letter 'S') was commandeered by the likes of Bunuel, but we must remind ourselves that Bunuel was only one interpretation of surrealism (lowercase 's').
Going back to the dictionary definition, surrealism is "the principles, ideals, or practice of producing fantastic or incongruous imagery." Note the word "imagery". It doesn't necessarily apply to bizarre, nonsensical plot twists (like Chien Andalou or Age d'Or). Surrealism should be recognized as a visual style foremost.
With that said, I don't think anyone (Cocteau included) will deny that the imagery in this movie is utterly out of this world: the photonegative car ride to Death's house, the reverse-action shots of people rising from the dead, and that phantasmagoric scene of climbing the walls en route to Hades. That's how I (and the dictionary) define surrealism. In that respect, Tim Burton is a surrealist; Jean-Pierre Jeunet is a surrealist; and yes, even the movie The Crow is a great surrealist work.
As others have pointed out, the plot of Orphée is highly structured and logical, unlike the work of Bunuel which seems at times purely random. But I don't think an acid-trip plot is a requirement. It just happened to be popular amongst the Surrealists. I can see how they would hate Cocteau for going against the grain (which he did brilliantly). Maybe the theme of Orphee's ostracism from the Cafe des Poets is Cocteau's depiction of how he himself was not accepted by the "hip crowd".
Have you read the Surrealist Manifesto by Andre Breton? It's a bit more than the dictionary definition!*
I also don't think you can say Bunuel 'commandeered' surrealism in cinema, as he and Dali started it!
Cocteau spoke of filming poetry. Not easy to fully understand, but he was not part of the formal surrealistic movement.
(* and I don't pretend to fully understand it! It can be read on the web)
I also don't think you can say Bunuel 'commandeered' surrealism in cinema, as he and Dali started it!
I meant that Bunuel and Dali were generally considered to have made the first surrealist film (even if they didn't), not to have started surrealism!
I agree with most of what you say. It just irritates me a little when people use the word 'surreal' to describe anything that's not conventional or literal :)
(By the way, I totally agree with your sentiments in your Bottom 13 film list)
I meant that Bunuel and Dali were generally considered to have made the first surrealist film (even if they didn't), not to have started surrealism!
This is a bit off topic for this thread, but I totally agree with you about cruelty in films.
I saw Caché at the cinema, without knowing what was in it. Apart from that one scene, it's a really intriguing film, although overrated I think. It did strike me as strange that most of the comments about the film being shocking related to a fake (human) death - which was brilliantly done, but obviously not real.
Luckily, I read an online review of Oldboy the day I got the DVD, so was able to jump past the scene in question. One thing I thought was curious was that the main actor repeatedly refused to do the scene at first, as he is a Buddhist and said it was against his religion to hurt any living thing. But the director finally pursuaded him ... "I can't do that, it's against my beliefs" "But it's necessary for the plot" "Er, okay then"!
"I can't do that, it's against my beliefs" "But it's necessary for the plot" "Er, okay then"!
Funny.
shareCocteau could spell better than the OP, but always enjoyed watching crippled spastics dance. We should enjoy it as well.
Nothing is more beautiful than nothing.
I don't care what education you people received and I don't give two craps about what Breton had to say, "Blood of a Poet" is a surrealist film, no ifs ands or buts. Save any kind of reasoning, there is none. So yes, Cocteau was a surrealist, among many other things. Actually, I change my mind, I challenge anyone to make an argument that "Blood of a Poet" was not a surrealist film.
share It's as simple as this IMO, art doesn't have to be part of the surrealist "movement" in order to be surreal.
The surreal existed long before the movement.
That's all fine and dandy, and I agree, but "Blood of a Poet", the movie itself, is a surrealist piece in the true sense of the word, whatever that means :P
I just get annoyed at know-it-alls who think they know everything about everything.
It is because it's surreal in nature but not because it's part of the movement.
I'm with you though. I for one am not concerned with the movement and I am drawn to surrealism because of it's tone and mood not because of the "point" the "surrealists" were trying to make. For them the art was simply a secondary artifact of their movement and not the priority and I do not agree with that at all.
I agree with you 100%
I'm glad there are clear thinkers like pushnlacs on these boards. I'm so used to the imbeciles that infest these topics.
jean cocteu said that he is not a surrealist...
He said "Blood of a Poet" wasn't surrealist because in his opinion it came before surrealism. Whether or not he was right, he was still essentially part of that movement whether he influenced, preceded, or even drew from it.
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Le Mepris
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Andre Breton picked up a neologism by Apollinaire and gave meaning to it, and in the process created a new artistic movement, which he controlled with an iron fist. He didn't like Cocteau and indeed expelled many people from the movement whom we today consider surrealists, like Salvador Dalí. Since surrealism is such a complicated thing to define, I take a simple approach to it: surrealists are only people Breton considered surrealists.
This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.
Don't know about Cocteau in general, but Orpheus (as well as Beauty And The Beast) seem to be usually classified as "fantasy" and I guess it's just as well - even though both have elements that, I think, should qualify as surreal. Either way it's difficult to tell when "fantasy" crosses over to "surrealism".
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan