For the most part, the main character was very careful to commit the crimes in such a way that they couldn't be considered anything but accidents. I was a bit surprised at the way he killed off Lady Agatha. That death would certainly be considered murder, because the bow was shot right into the balloon.
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Jim Hutton: talented gorgeous hot hunk; adorable as ElleryQueen; SEXIEST ACTOR EVER
I think a strident suffragette like Lady Agatha would have enough enemies that her being shot down during a public demonstration in the middle of London couldn't be tied to Louis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npou8eFIWHM
"No need to be rude, dear"
True, but it would have been nice if he could have made all the deaths look like suicide or an accident. Not a big deal...still a fantastic movie.
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Jim Hutton: talented gorgeous hot hunk; adorable as ElleryQueen; SEXIEST ACTOR EVER
I thought she was the funniest character, smashing those store windows like a Carrie Nation, and she didn't last long enough.
shareShe was hilarious in that scene.
Also in church at the funeral, when she shushed her relative.
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Jim Hutton: talented gorgeous hot hunk; adorable as ElleryQueen; SEXIEST ACTOR EVER
More seriously, one little hole in such a large balloon wouldn't have made much difference anyway.
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The IMDB site says, "Create a new list", but how could I create an old one?
> one little hole in such a large balloon wouldn't have made much difference anyway.
Exactly. It would be nothing more than a slow leak that could be compensated for by turning on the burner.
But, it's a comedy. It's more fun to think that the balloon popped like a party balloon.
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What Would Jesus Do For A Klondike Bar (WWJDFAKB)?
"could be compensated for by turning on the burner."
*******
Wake up Bing-57, it was a hydrogen balloon!
I thought he was trying to create the impression that "she tried to do a dangerous stunt and something went wrong". Unless somebody was looking in exactly the right place at the right time, they might not have seen his arrow flying from his apartment to the balloon. Not clear where the arrow would end up afterwards -- in the balloon, or would it have gone out the other end? In the latter case Louis might have retrieved the arrow before somebody found it and got suspicious.
shareSomeone pointed out that the arrow would have been destroyed.
With that in mind, plus your points, I conclude that this was another perfect crime committed by this main character.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇
For the most part... they couldn't be considered anything but accidents.The jar of caviar which contained a home-made bomb? Seriously, this was never going to be a police procedural and I like the way we see Louis with a bow in his hands in an earlier scene, suggesting he does know how to use it.🐭 share
If you've watched more than 2-3 police/detective stories, you will know that the police always fail to detect the obvious.... until the adventurous upstart police officer challenges everyone and "re-opens" the case...
The ultimate irony of Kind Hearts and Coronets similarly follows this trope - police incompetence. Without it, Louis wouldn't have succeeded.
Lady Agatha's death would have been written off as "she had so many enemies as a suffragette" that it could have been anyone who killed her.
I've seen a lot of detective films and I've read a lot of the books, so I'm quite familiar with the "dumb cop" storyline in those stories.
The thing is that Louis came up with such perfect murders in the first few cases (impossible to prove that he killed those people) that I was just caught off-guard that he was a bit sloppy with this crime.
But you're right. She did have a lot of enemies and there wouldn't have been reason to trace the crime to him.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
Yes... the dumb cop plotline never gets old 😁
The biggest crime of this film is Lady Agatha's screen time was far too short!
I would give anything to see more of Sir Alec shushing the D'Ascoynes and breaking more windows.
I think if fans and critics really chose to tear KH&C apart, they could. There are many loopholes and questionable storylines. KH&C just happens to be classic comedic fairy-tale filmmaking at its finest, and so things have been overlooked.
Loophole 1. Sibella extorting and blackmailing Louis to murder Edith in exchange for the suicide note right in front of the guards? Though the conversation is cleverly veiled, it is questionable how Edith somehow produced a suicide note the evening before and immediately Louis is released.
Loophole 2. Not a single person (other than Sibella) questioned the pattern of D'Ascoynes dying left and right, while a shunned, unlikely member of the family becomes the Duke?
Loophole 3. Not a single witness for Louis' stalking of Cousin Henry by the river? He would also draw a lot of attention as a man when he attended Agatha's suffragette rallies. No one questioned how Louis just happened to be there or close by almost every time a D'Ascoyne perished?
It would have been nice if Lady Agatha could have had more screen time. However, showing her breaking more windows would have been just "dead air time" (so to speak). The alternative was to have had her talk with Louis, but that would have been out of character. She was far removed from the family because she was fighting for women's rights.
As for the loopholes:
# 1 - The guards had no reason to suspect that she was up to anything. Maybe back then they went easy on women, thinking that they wouldn't commit a crime. I'm not sure. But Louis was the one in jail, not her. Plus, as you say, her speech was "cleverly veiled". Those guards had no reason to understand her subtle remarks.
# 2 - The deaths didn't happen all at once. Sometimes there were months in between, and most of them clearly looked like accidents (especially the first two deaths). Louis had a way of making it look like they died because of their weaknesses (the first one was supposedly careless in the boat, the second supposedly careless when developing pictures, etc.). I think he got a bit careless later (for example: the bomb going off in the restaurant couldn't have been an accident).
# 3 - No one had any reason to watch Louis by the river. It looked to me like a fun/romantic place where men would take their sweethearts. I doubt that any of them had crime on their minds. Besides, I think that no one should have been allowed to do any boating on that river because of the waterfall.
Louis wasn't always there when one of them died. First couple of times, yes. Other times, no one could prove he was close by (like when Lady Agatha died). In fact, I doubt that anyone could prove he was nearby when the first murder was committed, because I doubt that anyone would have even noticed him on that property. When he murdered that minister, he was in disguise. No one knew that he had shown up there.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
I definitely prefer seeing more of Agatha over the pastor who had dialogue. Instead of smashing windows, she can smash cops!😊
Suppose we had a smart, observant detective type like Sherlock, Catherine of Happy Valley, Ellie of Broadchurch, Susan of the Bletchley Circle, Poirot, etc. they would start suspecting a pattern. They would start noticing Louis' ascent and inquire where he was during the D'Ascoyne's deaths. He was there during the photographer's, philanderer's, and Duke's deaths, a rather glaring pattern to overlook. As for the first death which seemed like a waterfall accident, he would have to account for his presence by the river, should a competent detective inquire the guests at that establishment. Since he was there for several days, surely some witnesses can testify he was there.
Yes, the General getting blown up surely should have Scotland Yard sniffing for clues but instead Louis was arrested for Lionel's death which is very dramatic and ironic. I guess the General's death could also be written off as Agatha's death - too many enemies, it could be anyone. Also, Louis said he killed 6 people, but the people sitting around the General during dinner must have been harmed/killed too. So more than 6...
A smart detective would be able to identify a pattern of Louis' presence during most deaths and seek for a logical explanation to debunk his abilis for the others. The Admiral's and Banker's deaths were a lucky coincidence. A good detective would still try to link Agatha's and the General's deaths to Louis, and they would probably find something. Also, a good detective would have been able to identify Louis' motivation, since his mother was so poorly treated by the D'Ascoynes.
I think KH&C's story only works in the dumb cop universe, especially when there is no one investigating the deaths. But since I have a soft spot for cop shows and films, I find KH&C to be unbelievable even though I love it 😀
Thank you for the discussion!
The thing is that, by the time someone caught onto the pattern, it would have been difficult to investigate the early deaths.
The cops would have to figure out who was in the vicinity when the first crime was committed - the relative and his sweetheart were sent over the waterfall. What are the odds that anyone would remember having seen Louis there? It's not like they would have been paying attention to begin with, and then years later....the odds of anyone remembering would be slim. Even the staff members at that hotel (or whatever it was) might have changed over the years.
Next, they would investigate the murder of the photographer. By this time, Edith was already madly in love with Louis and she'd stick up for him. Besides, how could they prove, years later, that Louis committed the crime? The building where the fellow developed the pics had exploded and the remains would have probably been cleaned up shortly afterwards.
As for the minister....did anyone actually see Louis go into the house to socialize with the minister? I haven't seen the film in awhile, but I seem to recall that he disguised himself a bit (not only his voice). Again, there would have to be proof that someone besides the minister had been there that day.
Lady Agatha - who would have seen Louis? He was hiding out in some building. The attention was on the lady.
And then, of course, there are the two red herrings for the cops - the old banker and the Admiral weren't murdered by Louis. That would probably throw off the cops if they did start an investigation.
Later on, Louis did get sloppy with the murders. Those murders should have been more thoroughly investigated and those murders could have easily been traced to Louis (like the guy who was shot on his own property while trapped).
Very far-fetched story, but I love this film. Actually, I like a lot of far-fetched mysteries, especially impossible crimes.
Nice chatting with you, too!
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
If we had Sherlock or a bold detective investigating the trail of Louis and the D'Ascoyne deaths, they would probably find a strong pattern. Although they cannot immediately explain some of the deaths, if something happened more than twice, it would establish a pattern. Even if events occur in the space of several years, there are sometimes records of a person's whereabouts, i.e. Louis had to sign in his name at the hotel.
The arrow that Louis shot into Lady Agatha's balloon was surely around the area of Berkeley Square. A good detective would have noticed Louis' home was close enough.
While it would be difficult for a detective to find enough evidence to implicate Louis, they would surmise that their deaths are too coincidental and would look for a motive.
KH&C definitely requires a stupendous amount of suspension of disbelief. Namely, the suspension of disbelief of not having a semi-functional detective police force investigating Louis.
I wonder if you have seen Petzold's Phoenix. Though not a crime mystery, it is a gem of a film. It is brilliant but also requires a great of suspension of disbelief. Like KH&C, the story is convincingly told, so once the suspension of disbelief was in place, the story really worked.
KH&C is definitely ahead of its time, the way it ridicules the same things society still holds dear.
He probably used a fake name when signing in at the hotel. And they'd have to prove that he was home when the balloon was launched and that the arrow came from the direction of his home.
My guess is that they might suspect that he committed those crimes, but they wouldn't have enough evidence to convict him.
However, he'd probably be tried for a couple of the later crimes and hanged for those.
Also, because of the speculation surrounding the early crimes, his reputation would be shot well before he would be hanged. He would have lost his job at the bank, Edith, etc.
I agree that this film requires suspension of disbelief. So do many mysteries, thrillers, etc.
Nope, I haven't seen Petzold's Phoenix. I suppose I should say that I'll be on the lookout for it, except that I've already said that about so many films this past year or so!
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
Yes, they would probably not have enough evidence to convict him. Balzac said that behind every fortune there is a crime which was undetected.
On the other hand, it was so easy for Scotland Yard to imprison him for Lionel's death. Sibella's version of what happened was accepted without question and in fact there was little evidence that the Louis killed Lionel. The Duke would get the best lawyer money can buy who would promptly point out that Sibella is a scorned lover out for revenge.
If they can be so lax with the Lionel's case and still imprison Louis, why not the others? Well, I guess I have to tell myself this is just a movie 😆
It's been awhile since I've seen this film, but wasn't he the last one who saw Lionel alive? Didn't someone else see him? (Time for a rewatch, for sure! I have a copy of it.)
Yup, it's only a movie. I'm used to far-fetched mysteries, thrillers, whodunits, etc. I may as well add dark comedies to the list.
Some of the Hitchcock "perfect crime" thrillers are extremely far-fetched, too. Have you seen Dial M For Murder? There's one plot which, in reality, wouldn't get past the early stages.
Also, have you read anything by John Dickson Carr? He also wrote under the name of Carter Dickson. He wrote impossible crimes: for example, someone walks into a room/house and vanishes. No supernatural explanation. For his stories, suspension of disbelief is pretty much a necessity.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
A maid took Louis to the drawing room to talk to Lionel. It was likely she heard the altercation between Lionel and Louis. It was not shown whether she saw Louis leave the Holland residence after a short meeting.
Sibella probably found Lionel's dead body in the evening, along with the suicide note. The maid probably heard that Louis and Lionel had an altercation but she was not there to confirm that Louis killed Lionel. Lionel must have taken some time to write a letter and kill himself. Actually, Lionel might have been killing himself as Sibella and Louis were meeting. Sibella probably coerced the maid into corroborating her story - that Louis killed Lionel. As 12 Angry Men would say, there was reasonable doubt that Lionel committed suicide without the suicide note OR that Louis killed Lionel. Both positions would make flimsy cases.
But I don't think a scorned woman's accusation with no evidence will be well-received by the police and a bunch of Lords, let alone arrest a seemingly upstanding Duke. Arrest/detain, possibly. But for a full-blown trial that goes to a death sentence of an aristocrat... 😋
I actually have not seen Dial M for Murder, though I've seen many Hitchcock films. I have not read Carr either. I rarely read novels since my student days. I mostly just watch films and shows.
I think far-fetched stories can still work as we see in KH&C; it is a finely made film with some reservations. It worked. It is rare for me to re-watch a film over and over again because I enjoy it so much.
Do you have more recommendations that are like KH&C?
The fact that Louis and Lionel had an argument shortly before his death would definitely make Louis a prime suspect...much more so that in the case of the first murder (the arrogant cousin and his sweetheart).
Dial M For Murder is highly recommended.
Off-hand, I can't think of films like Kind Hearts and Coronets. You might want to ask this question on the Classic Film Board. Others might be able to help you. I have seen a lot of older mysteries and thrillers, but somehow, I think that KH&C is in a league of its own. Are you looking for movies with serial killers? Dark comedies? Commentary on the British class system?
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
Even if Louis is a prime suspect, he may be arrested/detained and will need a final nail in the coffin (proof) to confirm he killed Lionel. But there wasn't any proof shown. And he is a Duke with good lawyers. How many celebrities and powerful people have gotten away with much more?
I like smart comedies but those are hard to find. Dark comedies sometimes just descend into grossness.
Thanks for the suggestions.
For a non-gross dark comedy, see the 1950s comedy The Captain's Paradise, starring Alec Guinness.
There's also the original The Ladykillers, which I wanted to like but didn't.
I love the remake of The Ladykillers, mostly because of stars Tom Hanks and Irma Hall. The gross parts of that film didn't appeal to me.
For excellent British drama, see the 1950s film An Inspector Calls, starring Alastair Sim.
A French comedy-noir: Elevator to the Gallows (1950s).
For a British film about a serial killer, see the 1930s movie The Mystery of Mr. X.
British whodunit: Green for Danger (1940s).
British comedy (not dark comedy): Laughter in Paradise (1950s).
Mind you, none of them are "another Kind Hearts and Coronets". But they do have some similar features.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
For another hilarious sendup of a British institution, there's THE BELLES OF ST. TRINIANS -- the girl's-finishing-school from hell, made in the 1950s.
(It was remade in the 2000s, but I haven't seen that version and its reviews were not good.)
I've given The Belles of St. Trinian's a couple of fair chances, and surprisingly I haven't been able to finish it. I'm not sure why, since I love Alastair Sim and I really enjoyed another school-based film which he did (The Happiest Days of Your Life). Somehow St. Trinian's just didn't seem to click with me.
I did enjoy seeing Alastair Sim in drag, though. Seems to me that many great male actors did at least one role in drag.
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Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
MsEllery, many apologies but I would like to give my belated thanks for your suggestions. I just lost track of responses to my posts. I saw some Ealing studio comedies. I quite liked Ladykillers (especially the ending, so clever) and Lavender Hill but of course they are nowhere near the caliber of KHOC.
I think Dirty Rotten Scoundrels from the 1980s with Steve Martin and Michael Caine fit into this cad con-man comedy too. The ending is almost as clever as KHOC.
I really enjoyed talking to you, MsEllery!
There were men involved in the suffragette movement in Britain, though probably not so many that they would not draw attention. The film fits a Russian saying at the start of the 20th century, that "the police always find a pimple on the smoothest back". So arresting Louis over Lionel, a death for which he was not responsible, would fit in with that.
"Chicken soup - with a *beep* straw."