olivier's preface


He says that "this is the tragedy of a man of a man who could not make up his mind", do you agree with this???

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My personal opinion about Hamlet is that he's a wimp, and so is Claudius. Both are characters who, once they make up their mind to do something, go the most roundabout way possible. Hamlet has SO many opportunities to kill the king unnoticed, and makes excuses for himself. He goes about a whole charade pretending to be insane, for example. When he has the chance to kill the praying Claudius, he makes up an excuse for himself, that he doens't want to sent Claudius to heaven. I think he's just delaying the moment when he has to kill him. Indeed, the only moment when he does kill him is when he is about to die and no possible consequences can await him.

Claudius too; he kills the first King Hamlet with ear poison, blaming it on a snake (Which is nonsense; there are no snakes during the winter!) And when the time comes to kill Hamlet, his scheme with Laertes is ridiculously complex. Why not just skip the fencing and go straight to the poisoned cup? Claudius, Laertes and Gertrude needn't have died.

That's just my piece...

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No, I don't agree with the preface, that Hamlet can't make up his mind. He's shocked to find out the truth, that his father is murdered. Then further shocked that Claudius did it. He wants revenge on Claudius, but it is a HUGE step between wanting revenge and committing murder, especially of someone in his family that he would have known all his life.

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I'm really having trouble discerning whether your are a troll or are actually being serious lol.


p.s. Laertes and Claudius have to "die by the sword". They play is metaphorical. They're revengers . . . Plus, the play makes Hamlet's death public and appear like an accident. Poison = obvious murder. Fencing = unfortunate accident. The poison is only a last resort, in case Laertes f!cks up and doesn't kill Hammy boy first (which he doesn't, because Hamlet rocks).

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I promise I'm not a troll. I am an actor and small-time Shakespearean scholar.

Laertes needn't die at all. Hamlet makes the decision to kill him very quickly, in a fit of anger before his intellect has time to take over and "logic-ize" him. Laertes' death is a gut-reaction to Hamlet realizing he has been conned.

In addition, Hamlet's death does not need to be an accident. He murdered Polonius, and had every right to be sentenced. The king also had poisoned the king with an untracable poison, and its reasonable to guess that the King could poison Hamlet with more of said draft. In addition, the King of Denmark is not answerable to anyone. If he decides Hamlet can die, no one is going to fight him.



To speak to my "Hamlet is a wimp" quip, Hamlet is a pretty decent foil character with Laertes. When Laertes hears of HIS father's death, his first reaction is to rush the castle, sword in hand, and kill the murderer. Hamlet takes no less than six months to kill his father's murderer. You decide who's the wimp and who's the brainless action hero.

And Hamlet is most certainly NOT a metaphor. A metaphor for what? Hamlet is based on a previous work which was based on history. Great playwrights do not write for the ages, they wright for their contemporaries. Shakespeare was writing about Danish nobility at a time when the British saw Danes as a bloodthirsty, brutal murderous people. That is the relevance Shakespeare intended. If Hamlet is a metaphor, then ALL works of fiction are metaphors, to be twisted and morphed into whatever theses students create.

To those who insist on applying metaphorical themes to all works of fiction, I direct you to the following poem by Billy Collins: http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/001.html

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Hamlet is not a whimp for taking "6 months" (it's actually 2) to avenge his father. You missed the point of the play entirely. Hamlet was trying to make sure he was justified in killing Claudius. He does not want to be the stereotypical avenger like Pyrrhus or Fortinbras, because avengers, in the classical tradition, are praised for being slaughterers. He contemplates the ideas of revenge and justice all through out the play. The play is structured around meditation. Each event in the play is bookened by soliloquies; this is the Shakespearian play with the most soliloquies for a reason (if you look at Macbeth, who is impulsive, he has the shortest and least amount of soliloquies of all of Shakespeare's tragic heroes).

I didn't mean the play was a metaphor (sorry -- that was a big typo). I meant the death scene, the duel, is metaphorical. And people don't "apply metaphorical themes" to fiction. Fiction has metaphors in it. Especially Shakespearian fiction (plays and sonnets). A lot of metaphors . . .

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In III.i Ophelia says it is "twice 2 months" since King Hamlet died, (4 months). After that, Hamlet leaves for England (-slash- his supposed death), returns, stays in Elsinore a while, and finally the duel happens.

Your third sentence is where we differ in opinion. You think he is trying to justify killing Claudius, while I think he is simply avoiding. At first he believes the ghost, and does nothing. Then the players come, and he is struck with the idea that the ghost could be the devil masquerading as his father, so he decides to test his uncle with the play-within-the-play. Once he is convinced Claudius did indeed murder King Hamlet, he again has the opportunity to kill him, but convinces himself not to. He then think he kills Claudius in his mother's bedroom (which, by the way, he can only do because he is behind a curtain, so he doesn't have to see the deed) and in fact he has only killed the meddling Polonius. He then does nothing to further his revenge until the end of the play.

I do agree with you that Hamlet thinks too much. Laertes, who does not think (and has no soliloquies or long speeches at all) has no qualms about revenge, while Hamlet takes the time to think about everything he does and scares himself out of doing anything.

I am not saying that you are WRONG, I am saying that we differ in opinion about who Hamlet is and why he does (or doesn't do) everything he does in the play. If we were to direct the play at theatres right next to each other, audiences could see yours, then mine, and have an interesting discussion about the two interpretations. There are countless analyses of Hamlet. Yours is yours, mine is mine. Neither is right, neither is wrong. That's whats so great about literature.

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His scheme with Laertes is ridiculously complex

No, it isn't. Claudius wants Hamlet's death to look like an accident (at least he says so in the play; I've forgotten whether or not that line is retained in the Olivier film). If he had merely given Hamlet the poisoned cup, it would have been much too obvious. Who wouldn't become suspicious after seeing Hamlet accidentally drink poison?

By asking Laertes use an "unbated" sword (that is, a sword with a sharp edge rather than a blunted one), he could have easily made it look like an unfortunate accident. Not only that, but he could have, if necessary, placed the entire blame on Laertes, and nobody would have believed Laertes' protestations.

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GregoryWool,

"My personal opinion about Hamlet is that he's a wimp"? Obtuse and wanna-be ('what I've been told is') Macho types of 14-16 talk that way. Calling it your personal opinion does not mean it should be based on your best thinking, knowledge, experience, understanding of complex people and societies, etc., etc.

For someone more familiar with Shakespeare than most, that opinion is especially, well, meaningless. How many men have you murdered, exactly? Are you an Expert Authority on violence and killing? On Shakespeare and Hamlet (as in, superior as the Expert Authority even when compared to true Scholars, etc.)? How long would it take you to do decide to do murder, today, in America? But you are somehow totally qualified and with the confidence of a small child that you are superior to Hamlet, as well as Qualified to lecture us all in such an unequivocal manner?

They say that "Know-It-All types will never actually Listen because they believe they already know everything" Chances are if you perform Shakespeare then you absolutely must constantly challenge yourself, your assumptions, knowledge, education, conclusions, etc. etc. How in the world is this any different?

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While I admire much of what Olivier did with this film, I do not agree with that interpretation. I think it is too simplistic. Hamlet was a man who was conflicted about the notion of revenge and who wanted to ensure that he was doing the right thing.

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Haha, that is the title of the essay I am writing now. it's a bugger.

No no no!! Stop slashing things!!
www.myspace.com/stephhatesyourguts

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I think Olivier's introduction attempts to reduce the piece into a bitesize idea for the audience of the film, but anyone who has read the play or seen the full production can easily realize it is more complex.

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A friend of mine who teaches in a Prison showed this to a group of inmates. After the first wise-cracks ("What language was it in?") they got on to a seroius discussion about why Hamlet hesitates so long, and then to wondering what would have hapened if THEY had hesitated before acting....

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Hamlet did not march down from the tower, after speaking to his father's ghost, and promptly murder Claudius for a good reason. Had he done so, there would have been no play.

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As far as applying metaphors to fiction and the link to the poem - Everything can be considered from a certain perspective and if someone (just someone, it does not have to be a student) finds something that can back up their idea, then more power to them. Literature and film are two of the most interpetive mediums in the world. The mention of the context of Shakespeare's time when this play was written does not matter at all because the authors of all the most studied works did not have the same ideas as their readers today have. I cannot tink of a specific example or link to send you to, but I recall authors responding to ideas about their works from readers and replying, "That is interesting. I had never considered that." There are certainly things in fiction that authors put in for certain reasons, but there are also many things that they put in just for filler that others found meaning in. I know from some of my own amateur work and the response from others that I have put things into writing that can be interpreted in a wildly different way than I myself had imagined and I am certainly no Shakespeare.

One thing I have to say about the poem (and I expect people to disagree) - I find most poetry, and especially that linked poem, completely pretentious drivel. If poets don't want people applying ideas and meaning to them then they should not write them. People talk about the sound of the language and visuals created - well, there are two mediums perfect for that - audio and video. Write a song or make a short film with that great visual. Poetry, to me, is laziness. People who cannot think of a point to make so they write some crap and watch the intellectuals argue about while they sit back and feel smart and important. Truth is, outside the classroom, no one cares. And I hope it stays that way. Now on to Hamlet...

I am not sure what my point is and I suppose that is fitting when it comes to interpretation. Meaning can be found anywhere and sometimes it can become tiring and downright stupid. The important thing is to be able to shut that part of your mind off sometimes and enjoy the language or the picture for what it really was intened for = entertainment. But, of course, entertainment is up for definition.

The best argument about the hesitation theme is the fact that Hamlet nearly kills Claudius (once he is certain Claudius is guilty) but stops himself because Claudius is praying and Hamlet does not want to send Claudius to heaven. This is a man who wants this revenge to be perfect. He cannot only kill him, but he has to make sure that his soul bears far worse punishment. I think that Hamlet's hesitation is brilliant and truly shows that you should always give voice to reason before a drastic decision is made. I find Hamlet to be the perfect example for people to calm down and not fly off the handle into a rage when they discover something that harms their emotions. Perhaps some would consider ignoring emotions (or at least putting them off for a bit) to be spineless or even inhuman, but I think it adds to the complexity of the character and actually makes him seem that much more human.

Also - do not forget that Hamlet gains his knowledge from a ghost of his father. Now, we know after the play of the recreated murder is over that the ghost exists and told the truth, but it is not something that can be completely trusted at first. Though the fact that others had seen the ghost certainly gave it credibility. And then there is the whole insanity issue, but I have rambled far too much already...

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From the religious point of view we can consider him as a religious man, we can assume that he put off taking revenge, because in Christianity taking revenge is forbidden. He put off killing his uncle 3times as Jesus was put off 3times for crucifixion.


"He is also, by nature an over excessive thinker, as is clear from his several soliloquies, namely the especial "To Be or Not to Be" speech, which one can translate to "To do, or Not to Do". Here he is basically contemplating the task ahead, which lends itself to procrastination. In his overbalance in the contemplative faculty, he loses the power of action".

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[deleted]

Speaking as a longtime admirer of both Laurence Olivier and his film version of "Hamlet", I think that Olivier's preface - whether or not anyone agrees with its thesis that 'this is the tragedy of a man who could not make up his mind' - was a mistake, because it's telling the audience what to think about Hamlet before they've even seen the play. And I doubt that Hamlet's character can be summarised in just fourteen words. In fact, I think that the film's entire prologue - with the speech 'So oft it chances' being read (not acted) on the soundtrack while the words appear on the screen, and with its travelling-shot of the dead body of Hamlet resting on the shoulders of four soldiers (which would alert any viewer unfamiliar with the play to the ultimate outcome for the protagonist) - was a serious mistake. It would be far more effective, after a few scene-setting shots of nighttime Elsinore, to go straight into the start of the play, to Barnardo and Francisco on the castle ramparts, and to the play's first words 'Who's there?', as Shakespeare himself does - he doesn't use a Chorus - and leave the audience to form their own opinions.

As for the reason/s why Hamlet takes so long to avenge himself on his father's murderer, we need to know that Shakespeare did not invent this story. Amleth (sic) was the hero of a legendary tale recorded by the 12th-13th Century Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus in his book "Deeds of the Danes". Amleth's uncle Feng openly kills his own brother Horwendil (Amleth's father), his co-ruler in Jutland, seizes the throne for himself alone, and marries his brother's widow Gerutha (Amleth's mother and Feng's sister-in-law), which was apparently regarded as incest even in pagan Jutland. Everyone knows about Feng's guilt. However, in pagan Nordic blood-feud custom the murder must be avenged not by society but by the victim's male relatives - or his sole male relative. And that's Amleth, since Feng is inevitably excluded as the murderer of his own brother. To avoid the same fate as his father, Amleth pretends to be mad so that his uncle will not consider him to be any real threat. It takes a long time - well over a year - before Amleth finally has the opportunity to kill his uncle.

An English play of "Hamlet" (possibly written by Thomas Kyd, but now apparently lost) already existed by 1589. In that work the ghost of Hamlet's father incited Hamlet to revenge. (There was no ghost in Saxo's account.) This device is also in Shakespeare's play of c1600. In contrast to the original story, no living person knows about the guilt of Hamlet's uncle except the murderer himself until the Ghost reveals it to Hamlet. Saxo's Amleth can kill his uncle and have the killing accepted by society as just retribution. But Shakespeare's Hamlet can't - he would appear to be murdering an innocent man. (That is what makes this Renaissance play so much more complex and subtle than the crude Dark Ages saga from which it is ultimately derived.)

In a Christian culture which incorporated elements of Roman law, like 16th and 17th Century Western Europe, what would happen to Hamlet if he did kill his apparently-innocent uncle? He would be seen as a murderer, not as a just avenger. Would he be executed? Locked up in a prison or a madhouse for the rest of his life? Compelled to watch someone else - perhaps the foreigner Fortinbras - elected as king by the Danish Council? The Ghost has placed a terrible burden on Hamlet, one that could shortly lead to the end of his own young life. No wonder he delays his revenge for as long as possible, even if he isn't fully conscious of his underlying motives for doing so. The longer Hamlet delays, the longer he may have to live. And so it proves to be. (Nobody was ever on the horns of a greater dilemma. Ask yourself what you would do if you were in his place.)

It is, in fact, much easier to understand why this Hamlet procrastinates than it is to understand why he pretends to be mad. Saxo's Amleth had to protect himself against his murderous uncle. Shakespeare's Hamlet has no such need. However, the pretended madness was an integral part of the original story, and Shakespeare, for that reason, retained it.

But there is an interesting precedent in one of Shakespeare's own early plays, "Titus Andronicus". Titus pretends to have been driven mad, largely as an outlet for the enormous emotional distress that he suffers as a result of the tragic and traumatic events in his life. Hamlet could have the same reason. He is deeply disturbed by the Ghost's revelations. Pretending to be mad may enable him to endure the otherwise unendurable.

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Excellent post, momurr43.


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ERIC HARRIS,

"I find most poetry, and especially that linked poem, completely pretentious drivel."? Before embarrassing yourself by talking silliness when you have zero knowledge whatsoever, but STILL insist on your own Expert Authority Status (because you actually have an opinion? So do cats, dogs and children - all have vastly different opinions about the Sun and Grass; which ones do you think are worthless and meaningless because of an empty mind unable to even comprehend necessary elements, understand the difference between correlation and causation, etc. etc. - but mainly because they do not know a thing about it!

Your entire little paragraph on Poetry to merely illustrates how very poorly you understand a thing about it - but what your 'fatal flaw' is the fact that you are so obtuse about it that you seem to equate your own limitations, failure to understand, well, anything at all about it and especially your know-it-all attitude (those who know-it-all will not Listen and are sure they have nothing to Learn).

The fact that you fail completely to understand poetry is meaningless; that your so proud of your total lack of any effort simply illustrates your self-imposed and deep limitations - and absolutely does not Qualify you to actually Lecture us all about how you are correct, blah blah blah. Drivel? That describes your paragraph on poetry - you see, you must have actually intelligent, thoughtful, knowledgeable, etc., thoughts and ideas even to form an Opinion, so your "just my Opinion" excuse is weak and invalid.

Ever heard these IMDB Fan-Boy types all 'Trained By Hollywood SPIN' when they talk their utterly immature garbage regarding Violence (something they have only ever seen in the movies), yet insist on their utmost expertise? That is what you sound like 'discussing' poetry. You obviously know nothing about it - how can you possibly have an opinion?

Try it this way - what are your specific and detailed Qualifications regarding Poetry? Having skimmed one means zip. Do you even use a dictionary with Shakespeare? He packs far more in a paragraph than any of us could in several pages; when you don't even know the actual definitions, connotations, context, temporal context, local and historical allusions, etc., etc. - then, again, you have zero basis to even squawk some weak, shallow 'opinion'.

It is as though you've listened to a totally foreign language and then pontificated and lectured to everyone about how it is drivel because the sounds did not please you in some specific and totally irrelevant manner. Without Education, Knowledge, Experience, etc., etc. (like most subjects) you truly have no basis or qualification to any comment or opinion of any interest or intelligence whatsoever.

But, hey! If you wish, I could really lay into you and be critical next time. Get it? Grow up...

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The spelling on this board is atrocious.

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I'm sorry. That was out of line.

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