So what was the "miracle"? - Miracle on 34th Street (1947) Discussion

[–] novastar_6 8 years ago

What's wrong with all of the above? The miracle was that Kris made a giant step in conquering commercialism and bringing people back to what Christmas was about, love and peace and heart and faith.

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

What's wrong with all of the above?

Nothing.

They're not miracles, though. Not by any stretch of hyperbole.

But thanks for participating and telling me what you think the miracle was. I appreciate it!

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] life4all 8 years ago

Perhaps the miracle was simply getting all the pragmatic, modern, "show-me" folks to admit under oath that Santa Claus exists.

A cynical world has all but lost its smile and today's headlines show us that we have even bigger problems than our forbearers who believed many of these superstitious ideas. So I say that the closer we get to landing a crew on Mars, the more we are all going to need these myths because they make our world glow.

Happy Christmas to you!   

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

Perhaps the miracle was simply getting all the pragmatic, modern, "show-me" folks to admit under oath that Santa Claus exists.

You might be on to something here.

It would be similar to getting Antony Flew, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawson to collectively agree/admit that the universe was created by intelligence. And that yes, Yahweh really does exist.

That would be the closest thing to a miracle of achievement I could imagine as an analogous example.

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] mlaiuppa 8 years ago

Perhaps the answer is on 34th St.

Was that were the courthouse was? Or where their apartment was?

Was it the address of Macy's?

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[–] ajbarlas 8 years ago

The address of Macy's: 151 W 34th St

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[–] FlushingCaps 8 years ago

I get your point, RJ, but I think you are trying to be too straightforwardly logical in assessing this film.

The way I view it, in the world of this film, Santa Claus DOES exist and the man we know as Kris Kringle IS the man. Harnessing some connection with the Almighty, like in It's a Wonderful Life, they could have had Kris somewhat supernaturally get Doris to change more quickly through seeing some "magical" activity. Instead, they made him appear to be a normal man who everyone thought was delusional but harmless (except for Sawyer), who was incredibly lucky to have all those things happen to help him win his court case (the judge up for re-election, the postal worker happening to notice Susan's letter, etc.) and also cause good things to happen to Doris and Susan, and Fred, of course.

I would argue the "miracle" was that (in the world of this film) the real Santa Claus found a way to make believers out of three New Yorkers, without using any supernatural acts, but through some logic, some luck--what if Susan had not looked out the window and seen the house?--and some diligence in working to bring the couple together.

I think it fair to say this was a different kind of miracle than the type you describe.

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

I think it fair to say this was a different kind of miracle than the type you describe.

Yes, which is to then say, it was not a miracle at all.

Thanks for getting my point. I'm not really out to skewer a long beloved so called Christmas movie so much as to say, hyperbole and incorrect terms and definitions exist and it helps to recognize them as such.

Plus, it cheapens the usage of words to mean whatever we want them to mean as long as our agenda is achieved. Perhaps I'm overstating my case, so thanks for bearing with me.

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] FlushingCaps 8 years ago

You wrote, RJ, "Plus, it cheapens the usage of words to mean whatever we want them to mean as long as our agenda is achieved."

We might discuss 100 other films over the next few years and if so, I doubt you will write anything with which I more fully agree.

You got me to thinking about another movie with that same word in the title, actually, MIRACLE is the title. I refer to the story of the 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey team that shocked the hockey world by beating the world's top team, the Soviet Union.

I would argue that the title is fitting because virtually all hockey fans at the time would have agreed with the statement that, "For the U.S. to win, it would be a miracle."

Like in our Christmas story, they would clearly be working with a different definition of the word "miracle." From the stricter, traditional sense of the word, the Americans won because they played as well as they ever played and the Soviets played much worse than usual, and suffered from a coach who panicked and changed goalies, taking out the best in the world, resulting in a bad goal later on that led to their defeat.

Getting back to your original point: Your suggested title might well have been technically more accurate, but the one they chose for the movie was certainly better for making it a hit in the box office.

Have a great Christmas!

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

I would argue that the title is fitting because virtually all hockey fans at the time would have agreed with the statement that, "For the U.S. to win, it would be a miracle."

We understand and agree (I think) what a true miracle is: turning water into wine, healing a man blind from birth, raising the dead to life, commanding the water and the wind into calm with a word.

By comparison, a win by an overwhelming underdog over a more highly skilled team represents an improbability, not an impossibility.

If that Soviet team plays the same Americans in a best of seven format, would anyone argue the same team would stand a chance? And so we say things like "it would take a miracle" because we understand we are using hyperbole to make our point.

The more often we use such hyperbole to make similar points, the less useful the word becomes. And less powerful. Fairly soon, everyday events become "miracles" (it will be a miracle if Johnny passes his English exam; it will be a miracle if Susie goes to sleep before 1am tonight; etc.). When a real miracle occurs, what do you call it to distinguish it from everyday occurrences?

"Incredible" is another word that comes to mind that has lapsed into near meaninglessness.

Your suggested title might well have been technically more accurate, but the one they chose for the movie was certainly better for making it a hit in the box office.

I agree. It just doesn't have the same ring to it. Which is another great point. Beware people having something to sell using words like "miracle and "incredible" and "amazing". You're likely to be quite disappointed.

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] rickathedj 8 years ago

How about Macy and Gimbel shaking hands? LOL

The saga of getting my first novel on Kindle
http://ricksmidnightquill.blogspot.com/

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

Or, Donald and Hillary?

Or German and British soldiers during WWI?

https://mises.org/library/will-peace#footnote1_oyehcpm

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] PaladinNJ (20308) 2 years ago

Or Germans and Americans sitting down to dinner during World War II.
https://historyofyesterday.com/how-the-germans-and-americans-shared-a-christmas-dinner-in-1944-fbefe912a4f

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[–] rome_adventure 8 years ago

I always thought the miracle was interpreted at the very ending. He says "I must be a pretty good lawyer. I take a little old man and legally prove to the world that he's Santa Claus." But was that a miraculous endeavor? Or is Kris really Santa after all?

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

But was that a miraculous endeavor? Or is Kris really Santa after all?

No and No.

The letters from the PO only point to the idea that millions of children believe there to be a Santa Claus. Not that there is a Santa.

If Kris is Santa because he is the only one claiming to be the addressee, then that would be evidence, but not a miracle. If there are letters still being written to George Washington and I claim to be the first POTUS, not only makes for no miracle but of a case for delusional fantasy.

I find this an interesting discussion (such as it is), not only for the liberality with which people readily use certain terms and definitions, but also for the notion that myths are based in reality - a concept I readily concur to be true.

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] montgomerydou55 8 years ago

Oh, for God's sake! Did you have to spoil this thread with a quote from Mencken?

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

That spoiled it??? Just my signature line. Lol

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] montgomerydou55 8 years ago

Mencken was an enemy sympathizer in World War I. He disseminated the White House "bathtub hoax" as a red herring to draw the public's attention away from his traitorous inclinations.
I can also produce a newspaper article showing his anti-Semitism and racism as expressed in papers he directed, upon his death, not to be opened for about 25 years. When they were, they shocked even the sympathetic Mencken scholar who studied them.

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[–] rj-27 8 years ago

Mencken was an enemy sympathizer in World War I.

Not to open up a Pandora's Box of historical revisionism here, but the only reason Germany and Austria were "enemies" is because Woodrow Wilson told us they were, in compliance with his friends the British who desperately needed US forces to turn the tide of war. I do not fault Mencken for not wanting US involvement in the most stupidly destructive and unnecessary war of all time.

I can also produce a newspaper article showing his anti-Semitism and racism as expressed in papers he directed, upon his death, not to be opened for about 25 years. When they were, they shocked even the sympathetic Mencken scholar who studied them.

Many, many men of renown have been blighted by racism, including Henry Ford and Abraham Lincoln. This does not mean everything they had to say about anything else is not worthy of consideration as valuable thinking.

I do not admire Mencken for his antisemitism or his atheism. I do admire him for his anti-state, anti-war and libertarian leanings.

Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken

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[–] cajayson8301 8 years ago

The term miracle can be subjective so it's not confined into your myopic prism of its purely emanating off the most imaginable of circumstances. I'd venture to guess most people would cite Justin Bieber dropping out of music as symbiotic of a miracle, even though it'd not be preceded by an unnatural occurrence. That's precisely what I'd say the film illuminates: we can see miracles in the most unlikely of places.

Here you have an older gentleman who most New Yorkers walk past without realizing he can restore Christmas's foundation, i.e. a holiday derived off peace, love and humanity as opposed to its well known marketing ploys. Try finding an individual today who would buck the trend by infusing a pro good will message into an established money making holiday ...it's improbable that will manifest in recent years but anything is possible (which reflects upon society's constant gripes about Christmas: it's paramount to private enterprise, hence more may consume less to rebuke this unfettered desire for material goods. While most may share that person's vision of a values oriented Christmas, we know that big money can easily quash an idealistic mission). That's precisely why it's in essence a miracle: a low tier employee at a major department store galvanized how a nation ought to respond to Christmas...doing it so much that two cynical non believers bend their inflexible natures into accepting him as THE Santa Claus

On another note, here's the definition of supernatural per dictionary.com: "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."

I'd venture to state there was a miracle due to these abnormalities: from two stubborn women believing in Santa, a neophyte lawyer providing a legitimate argument behind Santa's identity, fundamentally shifting commercialism endeavors after a consistent splurging pattern (including on top brass executives usually impervious to changing market status quos)...and can ANY of this truly be explained by nature? Absolutely not.

When God made Tom Cruise, he was only joking.

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