MovieChat Forums > The Big Sleep (1946) Discussion > Who killed the chaffeur?

Who killed the chaffeur?


Hi, anybody know who killed the chaffeur, the greatest unsolved mystery in the movies? I've watched it a load of times but just can't figure it out.

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Joe Brody. You're welcome.

Yes, it's number one, it's Top of the Pops!

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No one knows who killed the chauffeur, even the director asked Raymond Chandler who killed him and Chandler said "oh I don't know!"

"You are nuts...N-V-T-S..NUTS"

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[deleted]

Actually, I think he daid he didn't remember. A little different.

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No, Joe Brody "played copper" and "sapped him down."

But he never cops to it. Bogart guesses on it, wondering how the car got all the way down there in Lido.

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No, Joe Brody "played copper" and "sapped him down."

Don't go simple on me, bpdou, Brody was clearly telling a fairy tale and making it up as he went along. That was the most obviously telegraphed case of "I'm lying" that I ever saw. Brody killed him. He's made to order.

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[deleted]

The butler did it. It was a revenge killing because Owen took Carmen over the state line to have his way with her when they were younger. He was jailed for a MANN ACT violation but Vivian sprung him by claiming that they were going to get married. And then she ordered the butler to kill him for her instead.

Or Brody.

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That's true--Chandler apparently didn't even know who killed Owen Taylor. BUT I hear tell he wasn't too thrilled that he wasn't asked to do the screenplay, so maybe he was just holding out on us?

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no one really knows... a professor once told me that the production of the movie was halted for a week because bogart and the others wanted to know who killed him... they called the screenwriters and even chandler to no avail... it's just one of those things... if you have ever seen chinatown there is a reference to the chaffeur... most detective movies have a reference to it.

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i love that story, but it actually IS Joe Brody who kills him. and they make it clear. the chauffeur kills Geiger because he was in love with Carmen, and he takes the film that Geiger was shooting of her. Brody, who'd been following Carmen, killed him to get the film so he could blackmail the Sternwoods.

its also possible that chandler might not have recalled all the complexities of a novel he'd written five years earlier and had written at least three novels since, two of them Marlowe books.

part of the brilliance of the movie is the way it pulls you into each scene to enjoy the subtleties of character and dialogue as they bounce back and forth, but this elegance really obscures the plot. if you make an effort not to get into the film and just to listen to it for plot points, it all comes out.

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It's certainly not clear at all that Brody did it - I guess one could argue it's possible, that Brody was such a good actor that he convinced Marlowe. But to have been the killer he would have had to have sapped him, then driven his car into the ocean - why? When he already had the film? There's no reason, and Brody wasn't that bloodthirsty. My money is on Owen Taylor killing himself, after waking up and realizing his murder to protect Carmen had been in vain. The movie eliminates that possibility by proclaiming to us that he was definitely murdered, but in the book it's rather murkier, and simply isn't important anyway.

Some people think Vivian did it. Hehehe...no contextual evidence for that at all, but people really think she had it in for the guy.

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nothing in the movie is completely "clear," but when marlowe confronts brody before lundgren shoots him, he gets brody to admit that he pretended to be a cop, stopped brody, killed him (probably by accident, just trying to get the film of carmen), then pushed the car off the pier to try to cover it up. he's trying to be a "good actor" and convince marlowe that he didn't, but marlowe gets it out of him - "try looking me in the eyes when you say it".

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It all points to Brody, I'd fry him on the evidence. And the guy who shot Brody was Geiger's love boy convinced that Brody shot Geiger which we know the chaffeur did.

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brody never admits he pushed the car off the pier. furthermore, Marlowe tells Bernie Ohls that he doesn't think Brody did it. we're suppose to believe that Marlowe is this great judge of character, and everyone who says Brody did it is contradicting him.

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Some of this has been mentioned before but
Could he have killed himself cause he was so obessed with Carmen who probaly didnt care about him cause she was such a loose women. And he would have had to drive her around everywhere and see her do all the things she does.
Not to mention he just killed whats his name and he would have had to live with that.
Man I'm confused
Oh yeah and he dosent even have the film that he killed for

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yeah I think that's the best guess there is.

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Filmaddict1983~ Some of this has been mentioned before but Could he have killed himself cause he was so obessed with Carmen..."

How would he have killed himself? After a serious blow to his head with the sap, delivered by Brody, he was able to set the hand throttle and drive the Packard off the end of the pier?

He had to have had the film, where else would Brody have gotten it from? Brody was not in the house. We see Owen's feet running down the back stairs and the Packard pulling out with Brody driving his woodie wagon right behind him, tailgating the Packard.

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zygimantas~ It's certainly not clear at all that Brody did it - I guess one could argue it's possible, that Brody was such a good actor that he convinced Marlowe.

Brody was a lousy actor, his story didn't wash and Marlowe didn't buy it for a minute. They did everything they could (actors, director) to make sure that it was obvious that Brody was telling a fairy tale that he was pulling out of his tailpipe, making up the whole lie as he went along.

He couldn't look Marlowe straight in the eye, even when Marlowe told him to - Brody was no actor, no trained liar, at least not in that circumstance.

I vote for Brody sapping down Owen Taylor near the pier and then setting him up, with the Packard's hand throttle, to drive right off the end. If Owen shot Geiger, didn't he still have a gun on him? Maybe he was driving to the pier to throw it in the ocean, when that creep Brody shows up.

I'm sure that Chandler might have, in addition to quite possibly not remembering himself five years later, wanted people not to know, to let them keep thinking about it and arguing it over and over and over - even until now.

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the trivia section of the imdb says:

While working on the script, writers William Faulkner and Leigh Brackett couldn't figure out from the novel who murdered a particular character. So they phoned Raymond Chandler, who angrily told them the answer was right there in the book. They shrugged and returned to their work. Chandler soon phoned to say that he looked at the book himself and couldn't figure out who killed the character, so he left it up to them to decide. In the original cut, shown to the armed services, this question is resolved; in the film as released, it isn't.
i guess you have to ask someone from the armed forces.

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Here's an interesting comment from Robert Mitchum, from an interview in Projections 7, a "movie magazine in book form" published by Faber and Faber, London 1997. (The interview is from 1991.)

Q: In a way, [Out of the Past] would resonate later on in your career, in the 1970s, when you played Philip Marlowe a couple of times. Were you familiar with Raymond Chandler's novels?

RM: No, but I had met him when I was a neophyte writer. There used to be a bookstore on Wilcox Avenue in Hollywood, and the writers used to hang out there. Whoever got a check would buy red wine for the company. We thought he was rather affected because he had a British accent and wore ehite gloves. We didn't know, of course, that he'd gone to Dulwich college and that he had a skin problem on his hands. He always seemed to be in hiding. He lived in places like Oxnard, places nobody went. I remember one time he'd submitted The Big Sleep for Warner Bros and they were calling him to account. They wanted to know who had killed the chauffeur, the one body that was left over. So in the general discussion in the back room of the bookstore, somebody said, "Well, do you know"? Chandler said, "I haven't figured it out." I said, "Just tell them that - you don't know." When I did The Big Sleep [1977] in England, Michael Winner just made the chauffeur a suicide. For absolutely no reason, the chauffeur just drives the Rolls right off the end of the pier. He just dismissed it.

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It's even more confusing than people mention here: I just re-watched the film and it's implied in the scene where Bogart tells the story do the D.A. that Lundgren (the kid who killed Brody) killed the chauffeur.

The police captain says to Bogie, "... you fooled around all day so that the kid (Lundgren) could commit a SECOND killing (Brody) this evening." To which Bogart answers, "That's all. I was in a tough spot..".

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Interesting about Lundgren - maybe this is related - Why does Marlowe take Lundgren to Geiger's place instead of straight to the police? The only thing Marlowe finds out is that Lundgren doesn't have a key to the place.

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[deleted]

It had to be Brody. He caught up with the chauffeur, they struggled, Brody killed him during the fight, maybe accidentally. Brody took the film, drove the car with the body into the sea. Then he hitchhiked or took a cab back to his car. He didn't dare tell Marlowe he killed the guy.

henry

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THANK YOU tor-lier for this refreshing quote, which should by all rights put an end to all these posts claiming a solution for Owen's "murder"

a great addition to the conversation.

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I say the smart money is on Brody having done it. He's the last one seen chasing after Owen, and he even admits, in the flimsy and shaky story he tells Marlowe which is obviously being badly made-up on the spot, that after he overtook him and approached the car, "playing copper", he "sapped down" Owen, meaning he left him unconscious after beating him on the left side of his head with a blackjack, which the medical examiner had pointed out had happened to Owen, before he died.

If you watch Joe telling his story, he gets very fidgety where he's explaining that Owen turned left on Sunset and skidded off the road near Beverly which Marlowe is clearly not buying, as is evident from his reaction to Joe's tall-tale as he is practically dancing around fidgety Joe, trying to get a good look at his face to see if he's lying. Joe is obviously making up a location a long way from the pier to put as much distance between himself and the site of the murder, as he can. Marlowe quickly points out that it would be near impossible for Brody to have beaten Owen unconscious and for someone else to then get the Packard down to the pier. It doesn't add up. Joe's desperately trying to cover his tracks. Marlowe starts into cross-examining Brody and identifies all the faults in Joe's fabricated story, but we never get to the bottom of that story because Joe asserts that they can't pin it on him and Marlowe says that he doesn't necessarily want to, what he really wanted to know was what Geiger had on the Sternwoods. Joe is about to spill the beans on Geiger, when the door buzzer sounds and Lundgren pumps two rounds into Joe, silencing him for good.

I'd say that there was plenty of evidence for Joe to step off for Owen's murder. It wasn't a suicide - Owen didn't clobber himself on the side of the head before driving the Packard off the end of the pier. Lundgren came after Brody for killing Geiger, he didn't even know that he had the wrong man, so it wasn't Lundgren who killed Owen either. And no one else has emerged to be a credible suspect. It's gotta be Brody.

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It wasn't a suicide - Owen didn't clobber himself on the side of the head before driving the Packard off the end of the pier


no, but the sap wasn't necessarily the cause of death.

I love that everyone is a better detective than Philip Marlowe himself, who didn't think Brody did it.

Face it, the death is an unsolved mystery in the book, it's an unsolved mystery in the film, none of the characters cared, the writer didn't care and the director didn't care - the solution of how Owen Taylor died was never created by any of the artists associated with the story, and therefore The Big Sleep carries in none of its forms enough clues for us to conjecture with any authority.

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> and the director didn't care

I would take issue with this one, and only this one.

The scene where Brody is relating his version of his encounter with Owen was staged so as to maximize the impression that Brody was hiding something. With the exact same script, that sequence just as easily could have been performed so as to depict Brody with a broken-spirit (in the short term) giving up (with respect to Marlowe and this particular deal) and just honestly relating what had happened.

The director chose to play the scene as though Brody is hiding something for a reason. I think (though I obviously can't *know*) that the reason was that he didn't like having that loose end and was hoping to get any audience member who did care about who killed Owen to jump to the same conclusion that jackboot did ...... Namely that what Brody was hiding must have been that he had killed Owen, despite the fact that we don't know that at all.

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[deleted]

I can go along with that.

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"i guess you have to ask someone from the armed forces."


Or just buy the dvd that has that version (the pre release version) of Th Big sleep.

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It's unlikely that Brody killed Taylor for reasons already pointed out. And though the murder is left unresolved in the novel, a strong argument for suicide is advanced there. One of the divers states that he thinks it was suicide, supporting this theory with a lengthy review of the evidence. Bernie Ohls then approvingly states "You've got eyes, buddy."

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I'm one of the people who believes that Joe Brody killed the chauffeur, Owen Taylor.

- First of all I am basing my opinion on the 1946 version of the film, not the novel, the opinions of the author of the novel Raymond Chandler, the 1945 version of the movie or the later version starring Robert Mitchum.
- From the film (1946 version) in this scene in Joe Brody's apartment;

Marlowe: "You know where that Packard is now?... It's in the sheriff's garage. It was fished out of 12 feet of water off Lido Pier this morning. There was a dead man in it. He had been "sapped". It was pointed toward the end of the pier and the throttle pulled out... You see the dead man was Owen Taylor, Sternwood's chauffeur. He went up to Geiger's place because he was sweet on Carmen... and he had a gun. The gun went off, as guns will, and Geiger fell down dead. Owen ran away with the film. You went after him and got it. How else would you get it?"
Brody: "All right, you're right. I heard the shots and saw him run out the back steps and enter the Packard and away. I follow him. He turned west on Sunset. And beyond Beverly he skidded off the road and came to a stop. So I came out and played copper. He had a gun. He was rattled, so I sapped him down. I figured the film might be worth something, so I took it. That's the last I saw of him."
Marlowe: "So you left an unconscious man in a car way out near Beverly someplace. And you want me to believe that somebody conveniently came along, ran that car all the way down to the ocean, pushed it off the pier and then came back to hide Geiger's body."
Brody: "Well, I didn't..."
Marlowe: "Somebody did. You wanted time to take over."
Brody: "You can't prove I did."
Marlowe: "I don't particularly want to. All I want to do is find out what Geiger had on the Sternwoods."
Brody: "Well, maybe you and I can make a little deal."


* The evidence is pretty clear that Brody killed Owen Taylor.

- The only other suspect would be Carol Lundgren. However Marlowe believes that Carol Lundgren killed Brody because Lundgren believed that Brody killed Geiger. So, why would Lundgren kill Owen Taylor? It would not be to avenge the death of Geiger since Lungren believed that Brody killed Geiger. So there was no motive for Lungren to kill Taylor and so I don't believe he did the killing.

Marlowe: "Oh and by the way, Carol, you shot the wrong guy. Brody didn't kill Geiger."


Carol Lundgren says nothing to contradict Marlowe's explanation.

- The theory that Taylor committed suicide is not supported by what the doctor says at the pier;

Dr.: "His neck was broken and something hit him hard across the left temple.
Inspector Bernie Ohls: "What made the bruise, the steering wheel?"
Dr.: "uh um (meaning no). Whatever it was, it was covered. Because the wound had already bled under the skin while he was still alive."
Marlowe: "Blackjack?"
Dr.: "Could be."


The doctor's explanation says nothing about Owen Taylor being killed by drowning due to the car going into the ocean. It is also pretty tough to break your own neck as a method of suicide especially by driving a car off of a pier which is only about 20 feet above the water.

* A couple of times in this thread zygimantas wrote that Marlowe tells the police detective Bernie that Brody didn't kill Taylor.

"Marlowe tells Bernie Ohls that he doesn't think Brody did it."

I can't find this in the 1946 version of the movie.

Again, the evidence from that film imo points to Joe Brody killing the chauffeur, Owen Taylor.

BB ;-)

it's just in my humble opinion - imho -

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Well done, BB-15, I'm thinking along the very same lines as yourself.

It was Brody who killed Owen.

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I was going to post a response to this question, but after reading yours you've said exactly what I was going to, and better.

I think it might be helpful if the argument was split into:
"Who killed Owen Taylor in the book 'The Big Sleep'?" and
"Who killed Owen Taylor in the film 'The Big Sleep'?"

As for me, I'm more interested in the film, as I presume most of us are since we are on The Internet MOVIE Database and not The Internet NOVEL Database.


Brody's the best fall guy. In a court room he'd likely have fried just based on what he told Marlowe alone, but as we know AGG's boy toy croaked him anyway.




There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

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"So there was no motive for Lungren to kill Taylor and so I don't believe he did the killing."

To get the sucker list.

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I'm thinking Joe Brody.

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Maria Gambrelli killed the chauffeur, didn't she?

"Could be worse."
"Howwww?"
"Could be raining."

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[deleted]

Why would Taylor wake up from a sapping and then drive himself into the ocean.

What did he see in the Bungalow that made life not worth living

Taylor loved Carmen.

So when Geiger took photos of Carmen that would compromise her, Taylor killed Geiger to get the photos away from him. (Why the photos would be a threat to Carmen is much less clear in the movie than in the book. In the book the photos were to be product for Geiger's illegal porn business.)

Then Brody takes the photos from him.

So when Taylor wakes up, he realizes that he has committed murder (and, unlike the majority of characters we run into in this movie, he is not a long time criminal or anything similar) *and* he has not even succeeded in protecting Carmen from the compromising photos.

There are plenty of real world cases where people commit suicide after committing murder, when it hits them what they've done and what have to look forward to.

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So it was either Brody or a suicide?

Heh.

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Yeah, one or the other, and I'm going with PillowRock's analysis.

"I can understand it, but I don't like it none!"--Cheyenne.

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[deleted]

Pillow Rock~ There are plenty of real world cases where people commit suicide after committing murder, when it hits them what they've done and what have to look forward to.

Broke his own neck and then set the hand throttle to drive the car off the pier as a means to kill himself? That seems a little far fetched to me.

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We don't know whether his neck was broken before the car went off the pier or on the impact of the car with the water. That is precisely the point of ambiguity.

Of course, if Taylor did commit suicide then he intended to do it by drowning. The faster death afforded by breaking his neck on impact would just have been a lucky break (if you'll forgive the use of that phrase in this context).

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The way they played it in the film, Brody was looking WAY too guilty when making up his fairy tale story of what happened to Taylor. I took it that they, the film makers, were setting up Joe as guilty of Owen's death. Of course, we never get to the end of that discussion with Brody, once Lundgren knocks at the door. I see your point, as to how Taylor could possibly have committed suicide, but, in weighing it against what I see in the film, I can't see the Taylor suicide story as holding as much water, if you'll excuse a pun, yourself.

If Brody hit Taylor hard enough with the sap, it would have fractured the side of Owen's skull at worst. It would not have broken his neck. I don't see Brody as having the stomach to break Owen's neck himself, at this point, I'm assuming that it was a consequence of the Packard going over the end of the pier and into the twelve feet of water.

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Brody admits to hitting Taylor and taking the photo/film, but says he didn't kill him. It is also stated that there was bruising in his neck while alive. It may be that Brody broke Taylor's neck but Taylor was still alive. Knowing that he had murdered Geiger, knowing that he'd have to explain why he was driving Vivian's car, who broke his neck and why, and all the other questions that would arise from the police, he pulled the throttle and the car rolled down and into the water. Wasn't there reference to Taylor's hands being on the steering wheel when Marlowe is down at the pier and they just brought up the car? This would imply that Taylor drove himself into the water. He may have died from his injuries anyway, but it does sound as if he made the decision to kill himself rather than having to face a murder charge. Brody admits hitting him and taking the photo/film. It tells of bruising in his neck so I infer that he hit him in the neck and not his head. A strong blow with an instrument could well have broken his neck.

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"Sapping him down" as Brody claimed he had done to Taylor would most likely have involved striking him on the side of the head with the sap, that is, a blackjack, which is a piece of iron in a leather sheath. It is doubtful that he would have accomplished much striking him on the neck or that he would have been able to wind up and deal a good blow through the car window.

There was no mention in the film of Taylor's hands being on the steering wheel.

Brody is clearly lying when he tells Marlowe what happened regarding Taylor. He is fishing for words out of thin air, he can't look Marlowe in the eye, he is telegraphing and indicating that he is lying in a very obvious way.

If Taylor were going to kill himself, why would he drive all the way down to the pier from where he was, several miles away, to drive a car off the end of the pier? He was in possession of a gun, you would think that if he wanted to kill himself, that would have been the most efficient and least painful way to go.

I still see Brody as having killed Taylor.

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WHY does Brody kill Taylor? Would Taylor refuse to give him the picture on pain of death? Would Brody kill for such a thing? Did he kill him by accident- a "sap" on the head that went wrong? I can't believe any story he tells Marlowe. This still troubles me.

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That's actually a very good question - why? The way the scene in Joe Brody's apartment plays out, it screams Joe being guilty or that he is at least hiding some important information regarding Taylor, but still, why would Joe really do such an extreme thing as kill for some blackmail fodder?? What was Joe doing there in the first place and did he see Taylor grab the film? If he didn't see Taylor grab the film, what was his reason for following Taylor? Could it just be one more thing with which to blackmail the Sternwoods, seeing Taylor shoot Geiger? The reasons behind Joe's actions are a little sketchy except that they conveniently place the film in his hands. Maybe this was not fully thought out by Chandler?

I guess Taylor's death will never be a sure thing. I can't see Joe Brody killing for a picture, now that you mention it. Joe seems like little more than a petty schemer and small-time blackmailer, but not a cold killer. He says he's not a tough guy, but he does warn Marlowe not to think that he (Joe) won't use the gun that is in his hand on Marlowe, but still... a motive for killing Taylor does not seem to be there. Maybe he over did it with the sap? Bashed in his skull, like the amateur job done on Marriott in Murder My Sweet? and then did a quick job of sending him over the pier to get rid of the body, the evidence and get Taylor's body away from the actual scene of the killing? Right before Joe is about to finish the story and fill in what seemed to be some important details, the fateful doorbell rings and Joe gets shot. What was Joe going to say? Was he going to name who actually did kill Taylor? Like, maybe someone else was following them? one of Eddie Mars' boys, perhaps? (not sure what anyone would have on Taylor to want to kill him, no other light is ever cast on his story) or someone else who was in love with Carmen? or...?? I'm coming up with blanks.

It's not an open-and-shut case. But, I still don't get Taylor committing suicide by driving himself off the end of the pier. That seems more unlikely than Joe killing Taylor.

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After reading all the Joe Brody and suicide theories I'm surprised that no one thought to consider Carol Lungren as a suspect. He was A.G. Geiger's shadow and Owen Taylor shot Geiger so why wouldn't Carol Lungren have more motivation than anyone to seek revenge and kill Owen Taylor? Maybe after Brody played copper and took the film from Taylor Carol came along and did away with Taylor. Then Carol shot Brody because he was the only guy that could finger him for the killing. Remember when Geiger's body was removed from the Laverne Terrace house when Marlowe returned after dropping Carmen back home? Then after Marlowe kicked Lungren's ass in front of the Geiger house the body of Geiger was discovered by Marlowe in the bed when he was turning Carol in to the cops? Lungren was hiding the body and just pretended he didn't have a key to the house when Marlowe asked him to open the house.

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One problem with that hypothesis is that it is incompatible with Lundgren's motive for killiing Joe Brody, which we *know* he did.

Lundgren's generally accepted motive for killing Brody (which Lundgren did not disagree with when Marlowe said it) was that he had thought that Brody had killed Geiger. If Lundgren had known that Taylor had done that, especially since being there at the time would likely make him aware of why Taylor did it (which had no connection to Brody), then extremely high risk (relative to his own chances of getting caught) killing of Brody no longer makes any sense.

So, in your scenario, why do think Lundgren killed Brody?

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The day after Geiger's murder, when Marlowe goes back to Geiger's shop, we catch a glimpse of both Brody AND Lundgren in the back room, packing boxes. What was their relationship, exactly, that they would be working together, side by side at that point and then Carol would come and shoot Joe very soon afterwards?

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I don't necessarily buy the theory that Lundgren killed Brody because he mistakenly thought that Brody killed Geiger even though it may be the generally accepted theory of Lundgren's motive. Just because Lundgren didn't disagree with Marlowe when he told him he killed the wrong guy because Brody didn't kill Geiger doesn't mean he agreed with him either. Since Brody and Lundgren were assistants of Geiger and involved in his blackmail racket I can't see why Lundgren would assume Brody killed Geiger anyway. Maybe Brody determined Taylor had killed Geiger when he was shadowing his house and Lundgren was with Brody in the car when they went after Taylor. Lundgren might have killed Taylor and Brody just took the photo. Then they clear out the back of Geiger's store together and Agnus might have told Brody and Lundgren that Marlowe was snooping and possibly looking to tail them when he stopped by the store for that follow up visit.

Since Eddie Mars was also hooked up with Geiger's blackmail racket he might have had Lundgren be a lookout outside Brody's apartment building the night Ms. Rutledge (Lauren Bacall) was over at Joe Brody's place. Lundgren may have observed first Marlowe come and later Carmen come and then go with her sister. He thought that Joe Brody was about to crack under the pressure of the probable grilling he was getting from Marlowe so he came up to the apartment and shot Brody. So that is the motive I think Lundgren really had for killing Brody not the other theory about thinking Brody killed Geiger.

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That makes a lot of sense- I hadn't thought of it before.

Marlowe asks the key question to Brody- "How did you get the picture?" He HAD to have taken it from the camera himself. He, Lundgren and Geiger were photographing the drugged Carmen. Taylor then had to have burst in and shot Geiger to "protect" Carmen. (Yet his splintering of the window frame was not heard? Let that one go.)
After Geiger is shot, and Taylor drives off in the Packard, the station wagon can be seen IMMEDIATELY behind it. Lundgren has to be in it. He follows Taylor (why is he going all the way to Lido Pier?) and does him in there. This was a crime of passion. Before Marlowe enters, Brody just has time to take the photo (but is not cool enough to take the real treasure, the book of clients) and quietly slips off.

Your final paragraph then make perfect sense if Mars knew nothing about the killing of Taylor (and Lundgren's mental state). Lundgren's decision to kill Brody was nothing to do with Eddie Mars- Lundgren did it to stop Brody talking about his (Lundgren's) involvement.

This is tighter I think.

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I'm with radioguy88. Lundgren actually killed Owen while Brody was with him - and then Lundgren killed Brody because Brody was about to tell that to Marlowe.

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http://mulhollandcinelog.wordpress.com/

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folks, your Lundgren theory doesn't hold up and here's why:

1) Lundgren killed Brody because he thought that was who killed his lover, A.G. Geiger. If he had been at the house the night before, to know that it was actually Taylor, then he would have had no motive for killing Brody the following day.

OK, so you said, maybe he also killed Taylor, and so the next afternoon he then killed Brody to stop him ratting him out to Marlowe. Unfortunately for that theory, Lundgren couldn't have killed Tayor:

2) Lundgren was not at the Geiger house on the night of the killing. You can see that clearly in the film: Carmen is alive in the living room when Marlowe enters and searches the house, finding only her and the body of Geiger. We saw the Packard with Taylor tearing away, and we also saw Brody in the woodey wagon chase after him. If you watch the scene closely, you can make out that there is only one person in it.

Lundgren wasn't there. His only information was that Brody has the pictures, and Geiger is dead. So he put that together and kills Brody in a fit of rage and revenge.


Leaving us with all of the evidence in the movie that Brody really only did sap Taylor, and then either someone else broke his neck later, or, more likely, it was suicide and he snapped his neck when 5000lbs of Packard hit the water after a 20 ft drop.

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Norm and others who have posted on this:

First of all regarding the question in the OP, and of course all the speculation the question raises, not to mention the apparent connection between Taylor's death and the killing of Brody by Lundgren, I have to say, and adding in Chandler's perhaps apocryphal response that even he did not know who killed him, that obviously some would consider this a possible plot hole.

If ever there was a perception of a plot hole that was not really a plot hole, this is it.

First of all it is hardly strictly necesary that anyone, including the viewer, know who killed Taylor. Theoretically the DA's office would like to tie that down, even if the most likely scenarios, thoses being murder by Brody, murder by Lundgren, or suicide, all in effect resolve themselves (Brody is already dead and can't be tried, Lundgren seems ironclad facing conviction for killing Brody, and suicide is a suicide).

But in real life we don't always know what happened in such cases, and knowing how the chauffeur died is not necessary to arrive at the film's ending. In fact I think it adds to the film's charm, giving it that kind of existential element of reality. Think if it from Marlowe's point of view. Among the three most likely explanations, none make any difference to him. Moving beyond those to...

Say someone did it for Eddie Mars, perhaps even Carmen Sternwood? Well Eddie Mars is dead, too, and Marlow has no reason to go after Carmen.

Marlowe as a detective is focused on his case, not on solving every crime or mystery he comes across. His case broadly speaking was to help out Sternwood and his family, and eventually Mrs. Rutledge. By the end of the film he has done that, and solving the mystery about the chaffeur adds nothing to that. So, it is fitting that the end corresponds with the ending of Marlowe's work.

So it's all good, right? But....

Just like everyone else who has posted on this thread, the OP's question still resonates, despite the foregoing, and of course that in itself is also part of the beauty and strengh of this film. Again, an apparent flaw in the narrative structure makes the film better, not worse. Brilliant (brilliant for the viewer, even if the apparent flaw was not intended as such).

I tend to agree with those who start with a recognition that Lundgren was not at the house when Geiger was killed, and had no direct knowledge of who did it. We have every reason to think Geiger was killed by Taylor. We also have Brody acknowledging (no apparent reason to lie here) to Marlowe that he had followed Taylor and had an encounter with him.

But we also have the brief scene where Lundgren and Brody are seen together in Geiger's office. Hm.

One possible explanation is that Brody beat Taylor up, but left him alive, and not even badly hurt enough, on the surface, for Brody to think he had mortally injured Taylor. But... it was enough to leave Taylor's judgment and awareness clouded. Taylor drove off in that state, and ended up driving off the Lido Pier. This would explain Brody's acknowledgement at the same time Brody would behave in a way that did not indicate that he would have thought of himself as having committed murder.

How this relates to the Lundgren killing of Brody? I might have to take some of the previous posts and see the film again. Heh.

Ftr, I love this film.

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i thought he was killed b/c of some other reason unrelated to this case.



Life's like a Cabo Carne Asada: never know how spicy it's gunna get.

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