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Sympathy for Ellen. . .at first . . .spoilers

posted 19 years ago by owlesun
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I've just seen this film. Although it is obvious that she is manipulative enough to wrangle a marriage out of Richard, and callous enough to leave her previous fiance behind, I found myself sympathizing with her for the first half of the film.

Richard does some really stupid stuff as a new husband. I would imagine that any new bride would want some alone time with her man, somehow, he doesn't get that. He keeps inviting more and more people. . .crazy. They never did get a chance to connect. He spends a lot more alone time with Ruth, not good. Any wife would be jealous of that relationship. Of course, a non psychopathic woman would first tell him how it makes her feel, and then threaten to leave, and then do so if things didn't change. Ellen just sees fit to murder those that take his time, which backfires and makes things worse for her. Her last act is utterly unbelievable, a sacrifice to ruin her sister. Totally insane.

I do wonder how this movie would be different if remade. We have a lot more insight into psychopathic personalities now. I wonder if we would get a different performance.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] owlesun 19 years ago

You're right, I didn't even think about that. It's weird how the directors chose that as a happy ending. It's more of a tragedy, huh?

[–] amiNotAwake 19 years ago

In response to "igatekeeperi":

I don't believe Richard and Ruth began falling in love until after Ellen miscarried. After all, what man wouldn't turn to someone else for companionshiop after Ellen's false accusations, selfish love, and meanness.
(If you remember, at the lodge in the very beginning of their marriage she accused Richard of being unfaithful in love, and went shrewish on him.)

It is very hard to become close to a selfish person like Ellen. Ruth was a very unselfish, giving sort of person which is probably what began to appeal so much to Richard.

Also, It's not like he actually cheated on Ellen with Ruth. Ruth and Richard did absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. There love was of a very innocent and pure nature. It began with frienship, not lust or physical attraction.

From the courtroom scene I got the impression that Ruth didn't want to love Richard because of his marriage to Ellen, and that she believed herself to be the only one in love. Ruth didn't give the impression she knew Richard loved her. I don't even believe he knew it himself until after she was accused of murdering Ellen.

The ending showed that some good did come out of his relationship with Ellen because he met someone worth loving (Ruth) in the end.

I just absolutely HATE Ellen.

“I and Velma ain’t dumb!”

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] amiNotAwake 19 years ago

Honestly, I probably wouldn't want my husband and sister to get together after my death ONLY IF my husband had been cheating on me with my sister, or IF my sister and/or husband were horrible, unkind people. Otherwise I think that as long as they really loved eachother and would be happy together, I wouldn't mind. But, I can't really say, since I'm not married yet, how I would feel.

Ellen didn't want Ruth and Richard to get together, not because it would've felt strange to her, but because she wanted revenge for the happiness she thought Ruth stole from her.

You might consider watching the movie again. Maybe you'll feel differently, maybe not. The ending did seem a little SHORT to me, but not abrubt. I thought the ending was introduced very nicely with how it reffered back to the very beginning of the film. -(in the beginning of the movie the lawyer begins telling the story to the local guy after Richard got out of prison...and then finishing the story as Richard meets Ruth at the lodge in the end.)

Thanxs for letting me rant! :)

“I and Velma ain’t dumb!”

[–] artihcus022 16 years ago

Maybe I'm a little cynical but even if I was dead and no matter how despicbale I was alive, I wouldn't want my sister to end up with my husband. Would you?

Well if I were Ellen that's precisely what I would want! After all the problem all starts in the family.

I haven't seen this movie in a while so my memory is a lttle blurry but I also felt the the ending was rushed and they felt they had to add this "happy ending".

They most definitely had to. But the ending is not necessarily happy. The thing about many classical Hollywood films is that whenever they tackle subject matter that doesn't really have a solution or posit a problem which is by it's nature irresoluble they had to tack on a happy ending to keep the production code happy. But while at first glance it seems happy and calm and everything's hunky dory, the fact is that the film leaves unexplained the reasons why she was so insane and left the audience in the dark over her true motivations. The ending doesn't anwer that. It actually answers and resolves nothing. You can say that the film just stops.

"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

[–] trupodur 15 years ago

> Well if I were Ellen that's precisely what I would want! After all the problem all starts in the family.

Moreover, letting widow[er]s to marry unmarried siblings of a dead spouse is in line with judaic, eskimo and other ancient traditions:)

[–] amiNotAwake 19 years ago

I don't understand why anyone would feel sympathetic towards evil, heartless Ellen.

In the movie it says that they were supposed to go on a honeymoon, but ELLEN chose not to and go, but rather see her husband,s brother at the hospital or rehabilitation center. ELLEN chose to falsely appear kind, loving, and caring towards her husband's brother by passing up on a honeymoon. This gave a false impression that she enjoyed caring for other people. It also probably gave the impression towards her husband that she liked being surrounded by different people.

I thought that Richard seemed a very attentive husband. After all he did want Ellen to have servants and enjoy their life. It is unrealistic to assume just because his love wasn't possesive like Ellen's that he wasn't a good husband.

He invited her mother and Ruth because he thought it would please her. After all, I got the impression they had been staying at the lake for some time already.

It is Ellen's own fault for them never getting a chance to connect. The time to do most of that would've been when they were dating or at least engaged. But, Ellen wanted to get married right away.

Wow, I kind of ranted on and on about this. I just absolutely hated Ellen.
Especially because of purposely inducing a miscarriage and trying to ruin Ruth's life.

“I and Velma ain’t dumb!”

[–] Noirdame79 19 years ago

There are some really good points. I felt a little sympathy for Ellen at the beginning of the film, when they arrive at the ranch and she is basically ignored by everyone, as they greet Ruth and Richard. But I began to realize why she was treated that way, bit by bit, and I thought her manipulation of Richard, Ruth, Thorne, her mother, and especially of Danny despicable. I can understand why Richard and Ruth were drawn together, innocently, but both denied their feelings. The fact that Richard was not aware until much later in the film of Ellen's past ruined relationships. Tierney did such a masterful job, and Richard is a bit naive and easily manipulated, lulled by her looks, her strength and her seemingly kind and generous nature, only to realize that it was all a facade. And what woman would deliberately miscarry her own baby?
She complains about how she looks, but she wasn't even showing (and since this was 1945, they couldn't show a heavily pregnant woman), kills her husband's younger brother (Danny was cute), or commit suicide and frame her innocent sister for her murder!! Sure, she was understandbly a bit jealous about not getting enough time alone with Richard, but the rest of her actions are inexcusable!!!

Tierney's portrayal was so brilliant that you really do hate the character of Ellen, and it proves what a talented actress she was!!!!

CATCHING THE BUTTERFLY IN THAT DREAM OF MINE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[–] Perselus22 16 years ago

I absolutely agree with you, couldn't have said better! :)

"I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally."

[–] cowgirl7265 18 years ago

I really didn't think that Richard and Ruth had anything, and it came to me as quite as a big shot when she said she was in love with him. He was her brother-in-law and I thought their relationship was puretly just a fun sibling relationship.
But oh well. I guess she was a lot more of a healthy person than Ellen.

[–] Noirdame79 18 years ago

Yep, you can say that again!!!

[–] jasonhurd 18 years ago

Something else that no one has mentioned is that there is a very strong implication that the relationship between Ellen and her late father was something more than filial. I've never read the book so I don't know if it spells it out more clearly there, but the movie seems to say that one of the reasons Ellen's mother and sister are uncomfortable around her is the relationship she had with the father. If I am correct, this would erode sympathy for Ellen even further, since it certainly does not seem as if she was an unwilling participant in any abuse; in fact, she idolises the man almost to the point of hysteria.

[–] smoke0 18 years ago

I didn't read the book either, but from the film, I got the impression that she was the father's favorite and was just like him. Since we don't hear much about him from the other family members it is hard to tell if he was also an insanely jealous manipulative tyrant, and/or if he and his daughter had more than a healthy relationship, so, (aside from the lame ending) what really makes this film stand out is the fact that it, unlike most films from this era, did not have the usual pat explanation for everything that happened, rather leaving Ellen more to speculation than heaven.

[–] artihcus022 16 years ago

I didn't read the book either, but from the film, I got the impression that she was the father's favorite and was just like him.

Well even if the book did deal with incest or whatever, the film does not have any explanations for Ellen's insanity and while people can infer all they want, there's nothing concrete there.

so, (aside from the lame ending) what really makes this film stand out is the fact that it, unlike most films from this era, did not have the usual pat explanation for everything that happened, rather leaving Ellen more to speculation than heaven.

Well people should look closely at that "lame ending" because it takes place at either the same spot or a similar location to the one where the boy got killed by her. And Jeanne Crain's white outfit as well as her hairstyle makes her look almost like a ghost of Gene Tierney and she's silhouetted in the last shot. Remember Ellen's dying words, "I'll never leave you." Basically Cornel Wilde's character is in essentially the same circumstances that she wanted him to be. One where he'll never get over her. It's a textbook fake-happy-ending. On the surface it's happy and cliche but from the framing and the lighting you can see the ghosts.

"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

[–] smoke0 16 years ago

You chose to see the ending your way. Since I didn't read the book, and cannot speak with any authority about the original story, I can only base my conclusions about the ending on the film, which I chose to interpret in light of the time it was made and most likely as the studio intended - pleasing the audience with a lame happy ending, something the studios had to do if they wanted the movie to make money. The last scene is deliberately reminiscent of Ellen's time at the lake, but it now belongs to Ruth, and it now is a happy place, and the same scenes with all the bad memories are now being replaced by good memories, and everyone will live happily ever after. Cornel Wilde's character is exactly where Ellen did not want him to be - enjoying life at her house, on her lake, with her sister. She wanted him rotting in jail convicted of her murder. I didn't have to infer that, it is a major plot point. However, I can and will infer all I want as to Ellen's insanity, since as I said in my original post, the film offers no pat explanations for her actions. It does offer only oblique references to her past relationships with men, which does lead to inference by the audience, again most likely as the studio intended.

[–] MedicatedDramaQueen 16 years ago

I agree with you to some extent. Ellen's shortcoming = lack of communication ... she let things fester inside, she over-analyzed .. if she had have approached the situation more rationally, then she would have been justified in her insecurity. Dick did NOTHING to make her feel secure .. he spent all his time on his brother, his work etc ... to make it worse, they slept in separate beds at the lodge! I wonder why he warmed up to Ruth so quick, and for so long? I felt really sorry for Ellen. But yeah, the murder wasn't justified.

It's hard to hide a hundred boys in your hair

[–] AliciaHuberman59 15 years ago

I love your name.

[–] artihcus022 16 years ago

I've just seen this film. Although it is obvious that she is manipulative enough to wrangle a marriage out of Richard, and callous enough to leave her previous fiance behind, I found myself sympathizing with her for the first half of the film.

Well the thing about Ellen is that she's obviously insane and a narcissist but she's also a human being and Gene Tierney conveys her humanity so well avoiding cliches of "vamp" or "spider-women" so thoroughly that you do like the character even if what she does is horrible. It's the same with Norman Bates.

Her character is also far and away the most ambiguous and fully realized of the film, even if we know very little about her. Much of what is known is contradictory. Like Ellen was close to her father but Ruth says that she had estranged him and even "pressed father to death" as that line says. So the greatness of Stahl's film is that he doesn't offer any clear answers to her. It's rare in Hollywood cinema, all the moreso for woman's roles. Women were almost never allowed to be ambiguous and contradictory. That's why so many women love this film and Gene Tierney's character.

Any wife would be jealous of that relationship.

Actually the irony is that Ellen acts more like a jealous husband than a jealous wife.

The truth is that we can't really fully understand her. The one thing is that her character is fairly honest. Like the scene with the doctor when she tries to cajole him into not allowing Danny out of the home, she quite openly tells the doctor of her irritation for him. Something that most people wouldn't do regardless of the fact that they feel the same way(it's wrong but it's also human). And she also directly touches on Ruth's obvious attraction for Richard. You can say that she dislikes the conventional role of daughter and wife expected of her, roles that her mother and sister have accepted and her love for her father is because she yearns for the same freedom. And then whether or not she really loves her father or even Richard or Russell is well left to heaven to decide. It's more like she wants to control and dominate people and prefers that over the choice of being a mother or a daughter.

I do wonder how this movie would be different if remade. We have a lot more insight into psychopathic personalities now. I wonder if we would get a different performance.

Well people still don't know why Charles Manson and the other famous assassins did what they did. Modern psychology's advances only illustrate the complexities of human thought and endeavour and the mystery of motivation. About how language itself is a kind of fascimile of what people actually think or how it only expresses a part of what we actually think. Human beings don't know a lot about themselves.

So frankly, if a hypothetized remake just wants to give us a new theory as to why Ellen is so screwed up than it's better if the producers just publish it as a research paper to some psychology institute or a film journal. It would be interesting to see a post-woman's movement update on the character though.

"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] JenniferA585 15 years ago

I know..I hate how 'aww shucks' they made Cornel Wilde be. Like..really? You just married a gorgeous woman and you'd rather go swimming or hang out with her family?? Ahhhh..censorship.

"Oh, I love living vicariously through the pain and suffering of others."~Waitress

[–] quietmushroom 15 years ago

I know that she is a crazy bitch, but I feel for her through out the film. I hate Ruth with a passion, especially in the 'Gal with the ho' scene.

[–] JenniferA585 15 years ago

Really? I empathize with Ellen to a point but then she goes all freakin' nutty. How do you hate Ruth? She was just an innocent victim in all of this. Jeanne Craine may not have been the best actress but I loved the 'Gal with the Hoe' scene! I just don't get where they suddenly fall in love unless you read the book.

AKA JenniferA585
Lick it up, baby. Lick. It. Up.

[–] Jerry234 15 years ago

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt sympathy for Ellen. I consider her a rather tragic figure. Of course, she did some horrible things, but I can't help wondering if those things couldn't have been avoided...

You're certainly right about Richard. But it isn't as if Ellen didn't make clear she wanted to be alone with him. First she says to him she doesn't want anybody else in their home. In the lodge she makes it clear to him how much she's looking forward to being with him all the time, and he responds by jumping out of the bed and going for a swim with his brother. Later, just before her family arrives, she says to him she feels the lodge is too crowded, that she wants to be alone with him. Yet he still manages to be surprised she's not glad he invited the whole family (and spends all his time with her younger sister).

Speaking of the family, they make it very clear that they know very well about Ellen's mental illness. Occasionally (and well after they were married), they even drop little hints to Richard, yet they remain very happy in taking up all of his time so he wouldn't be able to spend any time with his wife (I mean, she wasn't happy her family visited at the lodge? Well, then it stands to reason she would be very happy if they would visit her family immediately afterwards! Doesn't it? ...No?) But I've got the impression that Richard would have trouble picking up on most small things, like earthquakes or a nuclear holocaust...

Ruth is the worst of all. She knows about her sister's problem, yet she has no problem with spending more time with Richard than his wife does. At least her mother tries to warn Richard, but he apparently doesn't do anything with that warning (or he failed to grasp the meaning of what she said). No, he remains happy spending most of his time with his wife's younger sister (the remaining time he spends wondering why his wife seems so jealous).

In my opinion, the family is at least partially responsible for the deaths of Danny and the baby. Could they have seen coming that her jealousy would have taken her so far that she would kill for it? Probably not. But the fact remains that they never even TRIED to help her. The only positive thing they do is leave the lodge prematurely (which, of course, leaves Richard flabbergasted at why they would have decided to do that), but at that point, it was already too late.