MovieChat Forums > We Dive at Dawn (1944) Discussion > These Three Films.

These Three Films.

posted 17 years ago by lordish
6 replies | jump to latest

We Dive at Dawn, even though badly ballasted with war censorship (It was produced in 1943) provides a very interesting look at how the Royal Navy operates its combat submarines. It makes a vital component of a great Submarine triple feature, "We Dive At Dawn," "Run Silent, Run Deep," and "Das Boot" The last two teamed with "The Hunt For Red October" make the greatest submarine triple feature ever.

With the first films mentioned we can see the vast differences in the submarine doctrines between the three greatest warring powers. British submarines weren't designed for very long range support of battle fleets. They were designed to control the waters directly around Britain and the Mediterranean so they were very short ranged. Indeed "Sea Tiger" is so short ranged that to get out of the Baltic they have to take over a small enemy port to get enough diesel to get home--a trip of less than 500 miles.

In a sub movie you expect a lot of raising and lowering the attack periscope so you expect to hear a lot of the order for such. The British captain, played wonderfully as usual by the great John Mills, is a very impatient man snapping his fingers every time he orders the scope up. He is also very brusque and even nasty to subordinates that don't obey his orders quickly enough. This behavior was duplicated in a documentary about a British nuclear submarine in the late cold war. The first officer, "Number One," yes the Brits DO call their executive officer Number One, just like Star Trek the Next Generation, is qualifying to take over his own boat. The method used is EXACTLY like the actions of the commander of the WWII boat. Amazing.

The crew of the British boat is very small and since it's not expected to remain at sea for a long time, there are hardly any bunks, showers, or food service facilities.

The German U Boot arm is run in a far more relaxed manner than the Royal Navy. as seen in the behavior of Kapitain Leutnant Willenbrock of the U-96. This boat's crew has trained long and hard to the point that rank doesn't mean much, except for the fact that crew of about 45 knew that the Komandant is god. The German Mark VIIC boat was designed as a north Atlantic commerce raider, expected to be at sea for at least 3 months. The crew is the last thing the designers of the craft thought about, so to stay out as long as 90 days food was stuffed or hung everywhere and among the ratings every two bunks was shared by three men, so they all got to sleep in each other's stink. Living in the VIIc literally was like living in a bobbing sardine can where even when ventilated the air was so thick in the boat you could cut it. This shared hardship welded U boot crews into a fighting unit not surpassed anywhere.

The US Navy in command style sat somewhere in the middle. This command style was fostered by their boats, the magnificent Gato and Balao classes. They were over 100 feet longer than eith the average British S class or the German Mk VII with crews of 80 or so. The submarines were designed to operate in the Pacific and they weren't designed to be commerce raiders. Their initial job was to support the battle fleet, but when that battle fleet was sunk to the bottom of Pearl Harbor, the Navy discovered to their amazement that they had the finest commerce raiding weapon ever built to that time.

The fleet boats (as they were called) had an amazing cruising range of over over 14,000 miles. Inside they were palaces. Hot bunking was limited and all the officers had their own state rooms. The Captain's state room in a U Boot was a little nook made up of the couch used for the Officer's mess set off by a curtain. The boats were AIR CONDITIONED! They also were extremely heavily armed with 10 21 inch torpedo tubes with 2 reloads for each tube, with up to 6 deck guns of calibers going down from 5" to 20mm.

Watching Burt Lancaster and Clark Gable trying to force their boat into the Sea of Japan past the minefields and rampaging destroyers thousands of miles from their home base shows a tactical environment that no other navy had to face.

To a student of WWII submarine warfare, these three films are vital.

lordish

[–] syzmygon 16 years ago

Thanks for your interesting comments on these films, lordish. The only exception I'd take is that the John Mills character in We Dive at Dawn is only brusque to "subordinates that don't obey his orders quickly enough", not "nasty". I'd imagine the brusqueness is realistic and particularly apt during a preparation to attack, as that'd be something at which they'd need to be as efficient as possible and would've rehearsed many times.

[–] raven_1-1 16 years ago

Hello Lordish,

Your comments were interesting but I think you have taken the characteristics of a small 'S boat and applied that to the whole Royal Navy! The RN had a wide theatre of operations and the 'S' and 'U' class submarines were primarily designed for the North Sea and the Med as you say. However, the RN also had much larger submarines like the 'T' class (which carried a larger number of torpedoes than any other submarine type) which were designed for the Pacific and had a long range.

The Med offered the most dangerous conditions for submarines of any sea/ocean as a submarine could easily be seen under the water from a ship or aircraft which was why the Italians were successful sub-hunters without having any sophisticated detection gear. Additionally, sumbarines were forced to operate close to the shore in shallow water to find targets or deposit agents, where not only could they be seen by the naked eye, but they had to run the gauntlet of thousands of mines layed by the Germans & Italians. Italian subs faced similar conditions. Therefore small is beautifull! Submarines like the Gato and Balao class would not have survived five minutes in the Med, as the RN found to its cost when they initially employed lager submarines there.

RN submarines operating in the Pacific were very relaxed with the crews dressed whilst on duty in Saris or just a towel wrapped around the waist because of the heat (no air conditioning!). All these things depend on operational conditions rather than any supposed differences between navies. However, I cannot believe that US submarine officers looked so perfectly turned out as Clark Gable or Burt Lancaster after a few weeks under water.

The futility (and dangers) of submarines operating with the fleet had been proven by the 1920s so did the American Navy really still hold with this operational tactic by 1941?

[–] screenman 14 years ago

Didn't the `Gato' boats also have showers and freezers?

I read that they were often subject to individual customisation so that no two were completely alike. One, I believe, had two 5-inch deckguns! Another got sunk by its own torpedo going round in a circle and whacking it up the stern.

I've got Revell's 44-inch plastic construction kit (knocked down from £79 to £29 pounds at Modelzone). Dunno if I'll ever finish it though!

[–] vonmazur 14 years ago

Screenman: I recently got the same kit here in the US, clearance sale at the local full service hobby shop...:) I will have to build it eventually, along with the U boot kit...also on sale...Time consuming for sure...

Dale in Alabama

"If those sweethearts won't face German bullets--They'll face French ones!"

[–] screenman 14 years ago

Well, good luck with the glue `n' tweezers. Methinks that if the U-boat has an many piddling little parts as the Gato, you're going to finish-up with model-maker's squint. Right now I'm building a protective case first, or the boat will never survive the interest of my nautical cat.

[–] Jason_Radley 12 years ago

Not sure how closely you watched the film. The sub lost fuel when it was damaged in battle. And it was another officer who was 'brusque and even nasty to subordinates'.