Granted it is not easy to decide. There are some things I don't like about "Joan" and I have read and sometimes agree with the things that have been written against it--not just on IMDB--but in magazines and books for decades, but still I have to say that it is one of the greatest films ever made. How about "Vampyr"? At one time this would have been heresy to say so, but I think the direction is even better than that of "Joan". (Actually, more and more people are saying the same thing.) The only thing I could say against it is that I think it is a bagatelle, and I am sure from what I have read that Dreyer thought so too. He was just having fun--but brilliant fun--making a scary movie. That is not necessarily much of a criticism against it! Which brings us to "Day of Wrath". I think this film has it all--seriousness, great style, real characters, even a beautiful leading lady, (and she was wearing no make-up!). Is it better than "Joan"? I don't know. It is a close call, and their styles are rather different, although it is clear they are by the same artist. That still leaves "Ordet" and "Gertrud". If I had to pick one Dreyer that was weaker than the others, I would say "Ordet". I am not against slowness, but couldn't they have cut something? And why is everyone so identically lethargic, no matter what their age? The characters seem almost like mouthpieces for different religious points of view and the director counted too much on the ending. What if you don't believe it? Can you really enjoy the rest fully? I am going out of my way to find things wrong with this and not saying any of the strong points, so I'll just finish by calling it a masterpiece, but a lesser one than the others. Which brings me to "Gertrud". Can people really claim that Dreyer was doing nothing with the camera here? That's like saying that Keaton doesn't act! I watch "Gertrud" enthralled every time at the brilliance of the style. My favorite scene is when Gertrud goes to bed with the young composer. The shadows on the wall! And that music! All I can say is, that is greatness. Or take the scene with her old lover, the poet, where he collapses in tears. Has anything more moving ever been filmed? "Gertrud" has as much to say about human relations as "L'Avventura" and "Jules and Jim", (two other favorites), and I don't know why it is still comparatively underappreciated.
Ultimately, it is next to impossible to say definitively--at least for me--which is the best. I would choose "Gertrud" by a bit, and make a three way tie for "The Passion of Joan of Arc", "Vampyr" and "Day of Wrath". "Ordet", I would put below the others: a masterpiece, but not as much a one as the other four. With five films of this caliber, I would not argue with anyone, even about "Ordet", as to which should take the palm.
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BrianN
17 years ago
I agree with Haciendacaliente. If Vreden's Dag hit the Top 250 it would attract 10,000 voters under age 18 who would rate it a "1" for every imaginable reason.
Vredens Dag is a unique film experience, but Jeanne is the better film IMO. But you know what? These lists really screw things up.
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haciendacaliente
17 years ago
They'd probably give Vredens Dag a "1" because it isn't in English...and because it is in Black & White...
Interesting thought: Dreyer actually wrote a letter to Louie Mayer after Vredens Dag was released, offering Mayer the possibility of producing an English-language version of Vredens Dag with Dreyer directing...but unless he was going to do something similar to Vampyr, *who* could he ever find to play Anne Pedersdotter with the same coalescence of ethereal innocence and (later) downright erotic undercurrents that Lisbeth Movin brought to the role (by the way, I'm still convinced that the one scene between Anne and Martin in the house before Absalon arrives for the last time is one of the most raw, carnal moments on film that I have ever seen...I can't think of a more suggestive staging on film that manages to parley so much sexuality by saying so very little)? Who could ever portray the menace of Absalon's mother with the same degree of vindictiveness and brutality? Of course, Dreyer being Dreyer, and having such an incredibly keen eye for actors/actresses, I'm sure he could have made great choices...but nonetheless, Vredens Dag is a cinematic masterwork that should be required viewing for *anybody* interested in the depth of film art, as far as I'm concerned.
Gertrud is an incredibly difficult film. I do think it is a masterpiece, and the film is so visually beautiful that it puts just about any other film to shame in that department, but it is an extremely difficult piece outside of that. I personally rank it beneath Vredens Dag and Ordet, and place it alongside Jeanne (which means that I still rank it rather highly). I haven't seen Vampyr yet (I've been waiting on, at the very least, the 1999 restoration to be released...I'd personally like to see all three versions released, but it doesn't look like that will happen).
I must disagree, though, and say that I think 'Ordet' is a beautifully-paced film. But on the other hand, I don't look at the film as being a religious manifesto, nor do I view the final scene as being literal. To me, it is a life-affirming film more than anything.
And as you said, BrianN, lists *do* tend to screw things up quite a bit. It sets up terrible precedents by setting films up against one another when that should never be the case. Any great film-maker...no, any great *artist* should be able to create art that stands on its own merits, and stands alone...and how can you reasonably rank works like that against one another without devolving into personal preferences (which is what most film lists consist of)?
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kriege10
17 years ago
Hot house, (sorry, couldn't resist), I am not so much against the rankings of films--What are the Sight and Sound lists anyway?--but I think IMDB style lists are ridiculous because the greatest films will usually not make it and the latest box office successes will, until even these are replaced by newer popular successes. If they had had IMDB in 1970, "The Sound of Music" would have been at the top. In 1980, "Star Wars" would have been number one, followed by "Rocky" and then films like "The Poseidon Adventure" and "Jaws" and, oh yes, "The Godfather", which more or less deserves to be there. The hoi polloi who criticize films like "Citizen Kane" and swear that this or that action film is among the greatest ever made lack even the foresight to realize that they themselves will forget about their favorites in about a decade.
By the way, I did not have a lot to say against "Ordet", any more than you said against "Gertrud", I was simply listing the reasons--pretty much all of the reasons--why I would rank it in last place of Dreyer's masterpieces. Needless to say, I didn't mention any of its manifold virtues.
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BrianN
17 years ago
An English-language version...hmmm. It's hard to imagine this story going down too well with English-speaking audiences soon after WWII, which I assume is when Dreyer suggested it. I think it could have been convincingly made, though as you say it's hard to imagine the casting for Anne or perhaps Herlot's Marte. The other principles are relatively one-dimensional.
And of course no way in Hell they would show an elderly woman naked during torture, that's a double no-go.
I really don't think "the patriarchy" in the US could've stomached this one too well.
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haciendacaliente
17 years ago
Kriege10:
I apologize if I came off as being a bit harsh towards you, since that certainly was not my intention...though I must admit that I am fiercely devoted to Vredens Dag and Ordet. I really do need to spend more time with Gertrud, however -- it is incredibly difficult, but much like Vredens Dag and Ordet, I find myself constantly thinking about it after watching it.
It is perhaps easier to say that the IMDB lists are trash because of the voting methods, and the fact that any fanboy can vote repeatedly for a Star Wars film...but the lists that take votes from film-makers are just as trivial in their own way. I mean, let's be honest here -- somebody is responsible for the crap that comes out of Hollywood, and it isn't just film producers and banal audiences -- and I'm not sure that I want somebody who was responsible for a film like "White Chicks" voting on a list of the "greatest" films ever made (whatever that really means). Bad taste isn't merely limited to audiences, unfortunately.
BrianN:
You make good points about the censorship issues that Vredens Dag would have faced in the Hays-dominated era of the 1940s. But I just went to carldreyer.com to see the letter again and, to my surprise, I saw that the letter was actually from 1943 (I thought it was from after the war as well). What it seems like it might have been, in retrospect, is an attempt to leave Denmark...
http://www.carldreyer.com/resources/pics/dreyertomayer1943.JPG
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BrianN
17 years ago
It's surprising that the letter is from 1943, but as you say, it's easy to imagine any European seeking a ticket to the US in 1943.
With so many US men overseas, "Day of Wrath" in English might have had a more willing audience, though the film is a real "downer", not an American mass audience-friendly film at all. Maybe the Brits could've swallowed it a little easier, it's all conjecture of course. I just envision all the old-time patriarchs getting their feathers ruffed over the content.
I also envision the story turning into "Bewitched"...
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kriege10
17 years ago
Hacienda,
No offense taken, please!: All three of us deeply honor Dreyer. I just wanted to clarify that my position vis-a-vis "Ordet" is roughly analogous to yours per "Gertrud". In any case, all five films are among the great works of art--in any medium--of the twentieth century.
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BrianN
17 years ago
It is perhaps easier to say that the IMDB lists are trash because of the voting methods, and the fact that any fanboy can vote repeatedly for a Star Wars film...but the lists that take votes from film-makers are just as trivial in their own way. I mean, let's be honest here -- somebody is responsible for the crap that comes out of Hollywood, and it isn't just film producers and banal audiences -- and I'm not sure that I want somebody who was responsible for a film like "White Chicks" voting on a list of the "greatest" films ever made (whatever that really means). Bad taste isn't merely limited to audiences, unfortunately.
That's why I prefer the Sight & Sound Critics' Poll...and I use it as a reference, not Gospel!
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haciendacaliente
17 years ago
Well, it can be argued that Vredens Dag was "American-ized" (i.e. ruined): some writers have speculated that Vredens Dag inspired Arthur Miller to write "The Crucible". The differences are substantial, however -- Miller attempted to craft a sociopolitical statement against the communist witch-hunts and fell short, while Dreyer openly stated that he had no interest in making a political film, instead focusing on raw human emotion and crafting something that is truly terrifying in its implications. The scene at the end of the film, and the way Dreyer handles it, is a perfect example. Though Dreyer does not literally show it, Anne Pedersdotter was indeed burned at the stake in 1590...but part of the amazing power of Dreyer's art is that he doesn't have to: Anna's closing speech is so wrought with defeat and despair that it is obvious what happens to her. The closest thing in depth that Miller offered was the second-hand report of Giles asking his 'interrogators' to place more stones upon his body, which shows that, no matter how much Miller claimed that "The Crucible" was a criticism of McCarthy-isms, its intentionally detatched disposition was every bit as aloof as the witch-hunts that inspired it.
Of course, here in America, the masses can only accept something when anything truly striking and worthwhile about it has been completely marginalized in order to appeal to the broadest possible 'demographic', so your thought of it turning into "Bewitched" is pretty close to fact. Of course, nowadays, they couldn't make the film without a $100,000,000 budget, pointless (but flashy) battle scenes with extensive CGI effects, and talentless 'thespians' like Reese Witherspoon screeching some pathetic script doctor's idea of effective dialogue into an unholy mess...mind you, that description isn't for the 'comedy' version that *somebody* would have to make.
Even if it means his films are under-appreciated and largely unrecognized, I think I prefer it that way to having some pile of crap 're-make' the film (a concept that has always befuddled me...*why* do people feel that it is necessary to 're-make' a film?)
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MovieMan0283part2
17 years ago
Actually, it's pretty interesting to see who voted for what...and some of the more mainstream directors seemed to go out of their way to pick "art" films in their top 10. Whoever was responsible for White Chicks, if asked, would probably make sure to vote for Potemkin!
Also, check out Michael Mann's list, or more particularly his comments. I happen to agree with a lot of his choices and admire his work - Last of the Mohicans in particular is fantastic - but man, does he sound pompous!
http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/poll/list.php?list=voters&votertype=director
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kriege10
17 years ago
Not that this matters much, but I happened to catch part of "White Chicks" the other night on t.v. There are worse movies, much worse. This was sort of funny, enough to keep watching for a while, and it wasn't loud and obnoxious like all those action flicks. Of course, it wasn't very original, but drag comedies never are--that goes for even "Some Like It Hot".
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artihcus022
16 years ago
I still say that The Passion of Jeanne d'Arc is his best film although all the four movies he made after that are incomparable masterpieces.
Of his final three films, Ordet I like best, Getrud I admire more and Day of Wrath that scares me the most.
People dissapear ever day...everytime you leave the room - The Passenger
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