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'Herlofs Marte' or 'Herlof's Marte'?

posted 16 years ago by aahronheim
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I notice no one has mentioned this little discrepancy, but I found it very interesting, so I'll venture it:

The "NEW ELECTRONIC SUBTITLES" on the Janus Films VHS included an apostrophe ("Herlof's") in the old woman's name. I assumed that "Herlof's Marte" was what 17th-century Danes might've called "a woman named Marte who is related to someone named Herlof" to distinguish her from some other Marte. But I thought it was odd that she kept being called "Herlof's Marte" throughout the film, even in very informal contexts, and to her face.

Later I rewound the tape and saw that there was no corresponding apostrophe visible on the letter being written about her at the beginning of the film. So I got "herlofs" translated on an online Danish translation service (http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?type=text&text=&from=dan&to=eng) and found that "herlofs" can mean "weird, delightful, glorious, magnificent, splendid, wonderful", which tells me that "Herlofs Marte" must've been the equivalent of "Weird Marte".

Now *that* sounds convincingly like a casual name given by local folks to the local odd old lady who's well known for her weird ways and possibly occult practices. I wish the name had been translated that way in the subtitles. Certainly not as "Herlof's Marte".

Any thoughts about this, from Danes, linguists, medievalists or others?

[–] pinnerup 16 years ago

The lack of the apostrophe in the written letter does not support your interpretation since Danish does not use an apostrophe to denote the possessive. Thus "Peter's house" would be "Peters hus".

That being said, I didn't quite understand the name "Herlofs Marte" myself. I assumed, as did you, that "Herlof" was likely the name of her deceased husbond, and I still think this interpretation is probably correct. It would certainly not be unthinkable for a common womman to be known - even in casual and familiar speech - by the name of her husband. My grandmother's next door neighbour Anna was called "Anna Sigurd" in common, non-formal parlance to distinguish her from the other Annas in the village.

I am not familiar with the meaning of "herlofs" that you mention - and I am unable to find it in Danish dictionaries, contemporary and historical, so I'm tempted to attribute that to a bug in the translation service - who also feels like translating "Marte" (a proper name) as "March" for some bizzarre reason :)

[–] aahronheim 16 years ago

Very interesting and thoughtful response, pinnerup. Actually, I've always wondered about the derivation of the apostrophe, and your information about its use in Danish gives me more reason to find out where it came from. Thanks much.

My brother married a woman with the same first name as our sister, and we often talk about her as (not their real names) "Jim's Debby" to distinguish her from "sister Debby", but when we address either one directly we simply call her "Debby" -- especially if there is only one of them around. Do you think your grandmother would've, for example, greeted Anna by saying "Hello, Anna Sigurd" or said, "Have a cup of tea, Anna Sigurd" if there were no other Annas around? I believe there were moments in the film when someone addressed Marte directly with something like, "Come here, Herlofs Marte" -- and it was this apparent formality that made me think there was more to this name than simply distinguishing her from some other Marte. On the other hand, saying "Come here, Weird Marte" seems a little formal as well!

[–] pinnerup 16 years ago

No, I assume that she'd only be addressed "Anna Sigurd" to her face when another Anna was present, but this is a habit that's dying out and it may have been "stronger" in earlier days. I do not find it unthinkable that it may have been used to address people. Also, the example with your sister is obviously a parallel, but I think it's a different situation when we're speaking of a term used to identify an individual in the context of an entire village where the term would tend more towards becoming a proper noun in itself.

At any rate, I still have found nothing to indicate that "herlofs" can mean "weird", so I think we can safely rule out that interpretation.

The film is based on a Norwegian play, as far as I understand. Perhaps more information could be had by checking into that, assuming that the name is preserved from that source ...

[–] aahronheim 16 years ago

Thanks for the further thoughts. Maybe I'll check into that play.