I know that many of you can't get past the Cold War, but keep this in mind: the Soviets defeated both the Japanese and the Germans before anyone else did. Without the Soviet Union, American casualites would have been much higher and World War II might have had a very different outcome. You can't sanely deny this (unless you are one of those wackos who believe that America manufactured all the Soviet T-34s and Mosin-Nagant rifles!).
shareWhat EXACTLY did the Soviet Union do to defeat Japan??????
I suppose in your mind it was the Soviet Union who won the battles of Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Saipan, Guam, the Phillipines, Iwa Jima, Okinawa etc.
Absolute nonsense!!!!!!!!!!
Many Americans forget (or were never aware of) the two border wars fought between Japan and the USSR in 1938-39. Simply put, in these two undeclared, limited conflicts, the Red Army (despite its weakened leadership due to Stalin's purges of its officer cadre in 1937-38) inflicted severe defeats on Japan's Kwantung Army along the Manchurian-Siberian frontier. This would lead Japan to avoid further conflict with the USSR by signing a non-aggression pact with the Soviet government in April 1941.
Japan's decision NOT to attack the Soviet Union in June 1941, when Germany invaded Russia, probably saved the USSR from defeat, which in turn was of great benefit to Great Britain, the United States, China, and the other Allies who fought against the Axis. One also can argue that Soviet entry into the war against Japan on August 9, 1945 (the same day the United States dropped a second atomic bomb on Japan), was the last straw that convinced the Japanese government to surrender, however little fighting the Soviets actually did against Japan from 1941 to 1945. Undoubtedly, the United States, China and British Commonwealth were largely responsible for Japan's military defeat in 1945, but the Soviet role shouldn't be disregarded -- especially not for ideological reasons.
See http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/nomonhan.aspx
AND http://worldwar2database.com/html/nomonhan.htm
AND http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Soviet-Japanese_Border_Wars
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Let's be honest here - okay?
I've been a student of WWII since the 60's.
The Soviet Union was run by a brutal dictator, Joe Stalin that by all accounts is responsible for the death of over 20 MILLION people, that's 20! Sadly most of those were citizens of his so-called worker's "paradise", then you had Hitler, who was also responsible for the deaths of probably as many - and I'm including his examples of genocide.
Stalin murdered Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc just like 'Dolph...Not a big difference here, monsters are monsters!
Remember Stalin's pact with the Nazis? - before 'Dolph went back on his word and attacked his "allies" on June 22nd 1941? That bit of treachery is vividly represented in this film.
Were it not for Stalin's brutal purges in the 30's where everyone from simple citizens to military officers to aircraft designers were gunned down because of Stalin's neurosis, the military would have had an inkling about the treachery of their Nazi "comrades" that was waiting in the wings.
In the early days of the war when the Nazis invaded Poland with the help of their Soviet allies, thousands of Polish intelligentsia and military officers met death with a bullet to the head, NOT in conventional combat.
No sir, they were indeed evil entities who's view of "socialism" was their only difference.
In my opinion it was badguy VS badguy and we and our allies had to choose which pig to sleep with and we chose the Soviets.
This film was nothing more than a PR job by our government to bolster support for our "allies". Now, dated and inaccurate it's been placed where it belongs - in the public domain.
Amen to that.
I would also add that the western allies held back the last stages of conquering Germany so the Soviets could do it. It was their reward and decided on at the meeting at Yalta. All the allied nations had a role in defeating Nazi Germany.
Yes, no argument.
Uncle Joe was a master manipulator throughout his evil career.
Sadly FDR was on the ropes at this point and let uncle Joe pull the strings - and the rest is history.
''Stalin murdered Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc just like 'Dolph...Not a big difference here, monsters are monsters!
Remember Stalin's pact with the Nazis? - before 'Dolph went back on his word and attacked his "allies" on June 22nd 1941? That bit of treachery is vividly represented in this film.''
No offence but the ''pact'' between the Soviet Union and NAZI Germany was actually a neutrality pact not an alliance; they promised to not meddle in the conflicts and affairs of the other countries (for a start Russian wanted to reclaim much of its territories from Poland, this is often called ''Eastern'' Poland; Germany wanted to conquer most of it's neighbouring countries). If we are to fault the Soviet Union for signing a neutrality pact then we should fault the UK too; the Soviet Union were ready to go to war before most western countries too. Do not let political biases from distorting facts.
If you love Jesus 100%... keep it to yourselves, perverts!
Soviets invaded Poland from the east on September 14, 1939. Later that year the Soviets invaded Finland and in 1940 the Soviets invaded Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Soviets killed millions of their owm people in the great purges of . 1937-38. After the war the Soviets started a campaign of terror against the Jews themselves. This was a very brutal regime that killed more than the nazi's, why our goverment choose to align with them, one can only surmise
shareOur government didn't choose to ally with Stalin, Hitler chose it for us. Ideologically, communism was anathema to Hitler, and his master plan from the beginning was to defeat the Soviets. After Hitler declared war on both the United States (after Pearl Harbor, in conjunction with Germany's pact with Japan) and the Soviet Union, we were allied with Stalin by default.
I don't think anyone here is defending Josef Stalin as a human being; there can be no denying that his level of evil was equal to or greater than Hitler's. Also, if he hadn't purged his military of officers he considered to be disloyal, he would have had a much stronger military force. The fact remains, however, that if Hitler had not entered into conflict with the Soviet Union and not suffered the losses and attrition that he encountered in Moscow, Germany may well have defeated the US and the UK, and the outcome of WWII would have been very different. It was the Soviets who liberated Berlin, which is an undeniable historical fact.
U r absolutely correct. in statistics alone, Soviet Union lost the most. 20 MILLION TROOPS, plus another 15 million civilians. But, they were just as criminal as the Germans; killing 4,000 Poles, burying them in a mass grave, and blaming that on the Germans, then raping, and killing over 100,000 women in the Battle of Berlin-there are no statistics of how many women committed suicide. Stalin's 2 top generals [ones that weren't killed before the war in his purges of 'disloyal' military [hitler was just as paranoid] were purposely put in deadly competition to capture Berlin. They lost as many in that one campaign as we did in the entire WAR-INCLUDING Japanese phase of WW2. Their population was only 2/3 the size of the U.S., too.
Ironically, TCM just had this flic on [7/25]. After the flic, they had a 'short' on the "Peaceful Nature" in the USA. First scene was--- Mt. St. Helens !!! and BEAUTIFUL Spirit Lake with a picturesque log cabin lodge, and people swimming, and boating. With the narrator spewing all kinds of adjectives of how "NATURE was at PEACE with the world". This was circa 1950.
The Soviets conquered Berlin; they didn't liberate sheyit.
shareGermany could not possibly have defeated the United States, if by "defeated" you mean "conquered."
And the Nazis had very little ideological gripe with Communism. In fact, they modeled their takeover on Lenin's of Russia and admired much of Stalin's brutality. The Nazis hated Communism solely because so many Communists were Jews. As Hitler and Stalin collaborated on plans to carve up Europe (the real reason for the non-aggression pact), Hitler lamented to Stalin (through proxies) that they could never be close allies, because so many Jews held positions in the Soviet government. Stalin assured Hitler that as soon as he could replace those Jews with "whites," he would.
Soviet basher? That implies that being against the Soviet Union is illegitimate as such. Not in this part of the world, comrade.
The great thing to remember about the Second World War is that it was a three-cornered war. Speaking in (very) broad terms, the three sides were Communists, Democrats and Fascists. In every country involved, the three sides would fight each other, and once control of the country was settled, the three sides would ally, or split up on the international level, according to the need of the moment. They would also fight each other internaly when their countries were at war (see below).
That is why Communist Russia deserves no credit for anything it did, as far as Democrats are concerned. Side with the Democracies over Czechoslovakia (and regret the backdown at Munich), side with the Fascists over dividing Poland and the Baltic States (and ship lots of oil to them to bomb London), cosy back up to the Democracies when double-crossed by the Fascists (and shamelessly demand lots of aid and the immediate opening of a Second Front, regardless of cost or tactical advisability) - whatever the Communists did was for the Communists. First, last and all the time, they were fighting their own corner.
The truce with Japan was no help to struggling China, or the USA's Pacific War. The border clashes with Japan should be seen in that light too - any benefit to us would just be an accident. Certainly, ideological blinders should not be allowed to get in the way of recognising the great contribution of the vast, er, unfree, armies of the Soviet Union in defeating our enemies, but remember they had their own objectives. In several countries (notably China and Yugoslavia) they took the opportunity of war to launch guerrilla movements against governments fighting invaders. This divided the country, and increased the chance of the invaders winning, but it increased the overall chance of Communist victory, and that was what counted.
@bleak I *hope* no one here is defending Stalin as a human being, but am not sure. dohistory and ContinentalOp, tell us which of the three sides you are on?
- Signed,
Soviet Basher Cold Warrior Red baiter (never get called a Brown baiter, why ever not?) and Classical Liberal
@ContinentalOp
The Pact also involved agreements to hand over lots of raw materials for war to the Nazis to help them make war in the west - a little more there than, say, the simple lets-leave-each-other-alone provisions of the 1935 German-Polish non-aggression pact. That suited Stalin, as his idea was to have the two sides wear each other out, then step in and pick up the pieces. See my post above.
Continentalop, try studying history some more. The Hitler-Stalin Pact was no mere "neutrality" deal. They agreed to divide Poland between them and Stalin launched his own attack from the east to implement the deal. Hitler also agreed to Stalin's subjugation of the Baltic states and Stalin agreed to supply Hitler with vast quantities of raw materials to facilitate Hitler's war in the west. Of course both sides intended to renege by attacking the other, Stalin calculating that Hitler would exhaust himself in fighting the French and British, but Hitler foiled his plan by quickly overcoming France. Stalin knew that he would need much more time to prepare his military for the intended attack on Hitler because he had gutted it in his massive purges of the late thirties. Hitler anticipated that due to that weakening he would succeed in a lightning campaign. It turned out both of them were mistaken.
sharevawlkee, I agree with virtually all you say except for we "had to choose which pig to sleep with." Three days after the attack on Pearl Harbor Hitler made the choice, by declaring war against us, following up with an initially very successful submarine campaign against our coastal shipping. So, we really had no choice. In any event, at the time, Hitler probably represented the more immediate threat militarily, so that even if we had a choice siding with Stalin was the better, or least bad, choice..
sharedon't worry about the fossils and old farts of a bygone generation (trying for a pathetic comeback) theyll be dead soon
shareThe Soviet Union did nothing to help in the defeat of Japan in WWII. My father fought in submarines during WWII, in the pacific, and Russia maintained neutrality throughout the war. Russian flag vessels carried Japanese supplies, weapons and war materiel. Russia did not declare war on Japan until AFTER we dropped the Atomic Bomb. Even then, Russia only declared war so it could lay claim to the Kurile Islands for its own empire.
The historical ignorance on here is incredible. Who is teaching our students this pro-soviet garbage?
One moron on here even cites to the Russo-Japanese war of 1905 ! The Russo-Japanese war was fought between Japan and Czarist Russia, not the USSR. Japan defeated Russia and destroyed the Czar's Pacific fleet. It had nothing to do with WWII.
It was the US that supplied the Soviets that enabled them the mass sacrifice of its citizens. America supplied much of the Soviet supply lines. What won WII was the C-47, the Deuce and a Half,the M-1 and the Soviets willingness to send it's people to the slaughter. Had it not been for the men, machines and money of the US, Europe and the Pacific, the world, would look very different today.
Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something.