MovieChat Forums > Mission to Moscow (1943) Discussion > TCM is running 'MTM' 2/8/09 (11:15 AM, E...

TCM is running 'MTM' 2/8/09 (11:15 AM, EST)


For those who've been waiting to see this highly controversial, dumbfounding, dishonest, exceedingly well-produced movie, TCM will air Mission to Moscow in one of its very rare showings on Sunday, Feb. 8, 2009, at 11:15 AM (EST). Check your local listings, as they say. Especially if you've never seen it, this is a fascinating piece of work not to be missed. Just beware its outrageous lies and distortions, all in the service of our noble ally, Stalin's USSR. And don't be put off by right-wingers who simple-mindedly scream "Commie" at anyone who tries to seriously evaluate this film -- a piece of blatant propaganda spouting some unforgivable falsehoods, but an important artifact in evaluating the American approach to the necessary wartime alliance with Stalin against Hitler. Also packed with talent, very well-made, fast-paced, and entertaining -- probably the more so because of its painfully obvious and heavy-handed deceits. (And for which it was roundly denounced by large numbers of influential American liberals -- not conservatives -- at the time of its release. Surprise!)

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This movie actually presented the showcase trials of Stalin as being legitimate!

And that innocent victims of Stalin's paronia were in fact guilty of being part of some great conspiracy!

This is as bad of one the Nazi Germany films. It serves as warning of how low Hollywood can go.

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It is an extremely interesting film. I'd like to get a copy of the original 1941 book by Davies. At that time, the attack on Pearl Harbor hadn't happened and the battle between pacifists and "brothers-keepers" was undoubtedly intense.

By April 1943, when the film came out, the need for actually convincing America to get involved was long past. Russia had already stopped Hitler's armies and was beginning to take back its own territory and we had been at war against Germany, Japan and Italy for more than a year.

Wartime rationing and deprivation were probably beginning to get very old to the American public but the American mobilization still had a long way to go to building the forces necessary to help finish off Germany and Japan. I think the main point was to demonstrate the value of the sacrifices being asked of the American people at that time. The film showed the amazing efforts of the Soviets and Americans could already see that the tide was turning.

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I just finished watching it; and I was amazed at how even-handedly it was presented. Sure, Stalin was a pr*ck; but many (most?)Americans today know next to nothing about the gargantuan effort (and blood!) the USSR contributed to the winning of WWII.

As I watched, however, I kept thinking "Uh-oh!...I'm afraid that the people involved in this film will be made to pay a price once Tailgunner Joe manages to scare Americans with his anti-communist rhetoric." That's why I came to the IMDB site--to see if my fears had, indeed, been realized.

Sure enough....McCarthy did latch onto this film to spout his insane vitriol over everything Russian; and (more importantly) over anything that treated communism objectively. I'm thankful we got over the '50s AND Mr. McCarthy; but the absurd rhetoric of those days still lingers in the minds of Americans today.

"The risk it took to remain tight inside the bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

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You make the same mistake most people do -- confusing Joseph McCarthy with the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC). A TCM biography of John Garfield a couple of years ago had his daughter solemnly pronouncing that her father had become a victim of "Senator Joseph McCarthy and his House Un-American Activities Committee," idiotically failing to realize the utter contradiction inherent in that sentence: Um, Hello -- the Senate and House are two different bodies?

McCarthy never went after Hollywood or had anything to do with hunting Communists in the film industry, the subsequent blacklist, or anything else related to it. He flung charges at people in virtually every other facet of American life, but Red-baiting in the movies was the exclusive province of the bigots and ignoramuses on HUAC. They actually beat McCarthy to the anti-Communist punch by starting their headline-hunting in 1947, three years before McCarthy stumbled onto the issue and began making a name for himself with his false and irresponsible charges (abetted by a press corps also more interested in headlines than fact). The 1947 hearings ended with the so-called "Hollywood Ten" being fined and jailed for contempt of Congress. But the real problems for film came later, when HUAC renewed its assault on the industry in 1951, largely in response to the headlines being garnered by McCarthy on the Senate side. That's when the witch-hunts and blacklist really became pervasive in Hollywood.

The interesting thing about HUAC vs. McCarthy is that while McCarthy was a liar who uncovered no Communists or spies, most of those in the film industry actually were (or had been) members of the Communist Party. The men in the original "Ten" were mostly hard-core Communists who remained unrepentant. John Howard Lawson and Ring Lardner, Jr., were the leaders in plotting the "strategy" -- actually, carrying out the strategy laid down by the CPUSA -- of not answering the Committee's questions but obfuscating, which only backfired on them and cost them any public sympathy; as Edward Dmytryk, who later recanted, said years afterward, they should just have forthrightly admitted their Party membership and basically said to the Committee, "So what?" Lawson and most of the others remained Stalinists throughout their lives, advocating against the political and economic system of the US even as they prospered under it.

In contrast, most of the people hauled before HUAC in 1951-52 were ex-Communists -- people who had joined the party many years earlier when it seemed the good, liberal, romantic thing to do. They were dopes, and most realized it pretty quickly and left the party soon, though they remained committed, and now anti-Communist, liberals throughout their lives. But by 1951 such niceties meant little to the lunatics on HUAC, who saw their anti-Communist thunder being stolen by McCarthy and realized that another, larger raid on the movies was a sure-fire way of grabbing more publicity. Hundreds were summoned and lost their livelihoods as a result of these so-called investigations and the subsequent industry-wide blacklist.

There is no defense for the actions of either McCarthy or HUAC. But don't conflate what one did with what the other did, and there were also differences between their victims. McCarthy slandered, made stuff up, found nothing. HUAC had no business investigating political beliefs; no one, not even the hard-liners among the Hollywood Reds, actually committed an act of treason; being a Communist was never against the law; the whole thing was a farce with terrible consequences. But, though my fellow liberals don't like to own up to it, the fact is that most of the Hollywood crowd accused by HUAC really had been Communists at one time or another. But absent any act of treason this was irrelevant, and as I said, most of them had long before given up their brief party memberships.

To repeat, this justifies none of HUAC's actions or the blacklist, but it is a significant distinction between McCarthy's wholly false charges about people being Communists, and HUAC's unjustified investigations based nonetheless on the reality that most of these people had indeed once been (and in a few cases, still were) Communists.

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You are, of course, exactly right, Hobnob53...and I should have corrected myself.

Thanks for clearing some of the fog out of my mind...and explaining what was actually the case.

"The risk it took to remain tight inside the bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

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You're a gentleman and a scholar, aybayb...and your essential points were well taken.

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The film is being shown tonight in about 15 minutes, if anyone cares. I think I'll skip it, not because it is a bad film but because I have better things to do.

For the most part, HUAC was right about communist infiltration of the film industry. And Joseph McCarthy was right about communist infiltration of the US government. It is only natural that communist sympathizers would demonize both HUAC and McCarthy, and for the most part they have succeeded.

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Watching it right now. Man could those Russkies strut.

Our close ally, then our dedicated enemy. Sounds like Iraq in the 1980s, and then that other thing.

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About HUAC: Although a majority of the people they accused of being Communists had at one time been party members, many were just vaguely leftist symmpathizers who may more properly be called the "useful idiots" Lenin spoke of. And the vast majority who actually had been party members had long since abandoned the party (mostly the people called before the committee in its 1951 "hearings"). Of the original so-called "Hollywood Ten" -- the nine writers and one director brought before HUAC in 1947 -- I believe all but one were still party members (Edward Dmytryk being the exception; there may have been others, however). Among these were the most fanatical people, like Lawson, Lardner and Polonsky. But when you use terms like "Communist infiltration", it sounds as if there were some grand conspiracy of like-minded Commies taking over all facets of the industry. Although they subscribed to the same parroted views, the true Communists in the film industry were too few, dispersed and disorganized to even begin to "infiltrate" the industry. That's a sloppy word.

About McCarthy: While there certainly was a small handful of spies in the American government and armed forces in the 30s and 40s, the fact is that McCarthy uncovered not a single spy, and all his charges were false. In fact, it was Nixon, as a member of HUAC, who uncovered just about the only actual spy found by Congress, when he nailed Alger Hiss. The rest were caught by the FBI and other law enforcement and intelligence agencies. McCarthy was a headline-grabber and a liar, and none of his charges was true, on the historical record.

Finally, to state that "Communists sympathizers" are the ones demonizing McCarthy and HUAC, implying either that everyone who attacks them is a Communist, or a dupe of them, is preposterous. History has denounced (not "demonized") them for their lies and excesses, particularly McCarthy. It is possible to see them for the unprincipled scoundrels they were without being a Communist or a sympathizer. It's just a matter of knowing the truth, and understanding that just because someone is a loud anti-Communist doesn't mean they're right or honest.

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I'm not judging anyone, these events happened sufficiently long ago that what is left is simply a historical discussion.

Just as you said that some of those on the Hollywood blacklist were "vaguely leftist sympathizers", the same may be the case with those who demonize HUAC and McCarthy.

As for whether there was an actual conspiracy, that's a toughy, There was some kind of organization that scheduled meetings and invited film industry workers, and they must have had a plan, but whether the plan was hatched in Moscow, no one will ever know. There did seem to be an effort to get certain kinds of movies made, movies with an ideological slant, but I think not much came of it. Perhaps something might have later, if only because writers or directors might have been susceptible to blackmail because of their hidden associations. (Or there could have been something enormous going on and I just don't know about it.)

McCarthy was a drunk, and a demagogue, just an average Joe who luckily or unluckily latched onto something that earned him a lot of publicity. You are correct to identify Nixon as the one who showed Alger Hiss was a Soviet agent. To the left, Nixon was even more hated than McCarthy, they set out to destroy him and succeeded eventually, though he was guilty of nothing that Lyndon Johnson hadn't done before.

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Well, all I can say is that there are a lot of people who dislike McCarthy and HUAC, not out of ideology or "leftist sympathies", but simply out of an aversion to lies, smears and demagogues. "Demonize" implies that they're being unfairly attacked, which is generally not the case, though I'm sure some people try to do so.

I think your recounting of what went on in certain circles in Hollywood, about trying to get more "ideological" content into films, is quite correct. It's a question of where you draw the line and can legitimately deem something a "conspiracy". I'd agree that the people "handing down the orders" were, by definition, conspiring to bring about certain results, so in that sense there was a conspiracy of some sort. Unfortunately the term is often used or taken in a rather lurid sense, conjuring up legions of agents in a great, organized, lock-step, all-powerful cabal, which in this case I think is vastly exaggerated and frankly impugns too much power to such people. That's why I said a number of people tried to give a political slant to some films and in fact did so, but the results were so disparate, isolated and uneven -- and many of them flew right over most people's heads -- that to call it a conspiracy seems to grant Hollywood's "Reds" power, influence and unity they really never had.

I don't wish to get into Watergate, but the fact is, it wasn't "The Left" (whatever that broad term means) that "destroyed" Nixon, it was Nixon. And equally untrue is the persistent canard that "Nixon only did what JFK or LBJ or others did". Even the Republicans who at first supported Nixon before the "smoking gun" tape was released made it clear that what he had done was not the same as anything done by his predecessors.

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Demagogues are everywhere, and Joe McCarthy was far from the worst. I saw one particular US senator on TV less than an hour ago, going on and on about today's Supreme Court decision. Very calm, very mild-mannered, but not a word of truth in anything he said.

There's the line in "The Untouchables" about the Chicago Way: "if they bring a knife to the fight, you bring a gun". The always seemed to have more defenders in the intelligentsia, in the press, in the academy -- they wrote the history of the post-war Red Scare and made it seem as though the home-grown Communists were just regular guys not much different from the Democrats. And they made Nixon one of the villains, when he was for the most part just a moderate Republican in perfect ideological tun with Eisenhower. But because he outed Alger Hiss, and because he won a Senate seat by defeating the very leftwing Helen Gahagan Douglas, Nixon was painted as the worst sort.

At some point, after his defeats in 1960 and 1962, he realized what he was up against, that he did not just have political opponents in the normal sense, but he had political enemies who would never stop trying to destroy him. He was still ambitious, he was bored with the life of a corporate lawyer, he wanted to be president, and he saw a path to the White House. But he went into the White House bearing more than a normal amount of animosity, and an unhealthy desire to get even with his enemies.

In truth, Lyndon Johnson was far worse than Nixon -- I don't know about Kennedy, he didn't have the time and maybe not the inclination. Everyone seems to have excused wiretaps of MLK, but that's only the most famous name on the list. Lyndon Johnson got away with a lot. Maybe you don't know, but it was only the intervention of Franklin Roosevelt that kept young congressman Johnson from going to prison in the 1930s -- evidence of bribery and vote fraud just disappeared. As president he also played fast and loose with the law, the law was for others and not for him.

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Demagogues certainly are everywhere, no one group or side has a monopoly, and how "bad" a demagogue is -- or whether one even considers a person a demagogue -- is basically a product of political biases. Historically, in modern American history, there was no worse a demagogue than Joe McCarthy, in part due to his influence and fame as much as what he said and did. There were many other demagogic politicians in that era, but none with his reach. (If the Senator you were referring to was Schumer of NY, calling what he said demagogic is stretching the term so far that it becomes meaningless -- by that standard, anything can be called demagogic. John McCain's tirade against the health care bill after the Massachusetts Senate election the other day was pure demagogery, but in the scheme of things it's just routine mindless partisanship.)

Although you were a little unclear, I assume you mean the "they" who supposedly wrote the history of the Red-Scare era are liberals or leftists or some such other intellectual bogeymen. True, there are a lot of people who dismissed or downplayed the threat of Communism, who refused to face the truth about Hiss et al, and so on. But that doesn't mean that the hysterics of the right, where Commies lurked everywhere and were somehow all-powerful, were correct either. Nixon used to use this ploy of whining about how "they" (who?) had threatened him if he made an anti-Communist speech, but that he was going ahead with it anyway. Garbage. The easiest thing in the world to do, politically, in this country in the 50s was a HUAC-style speech, but Nixon always tried to transform it into an act of political courage, when in fact it was the cheapest way to score political points. Nixon was extremely smart and talented and knew better, but was ruthless and dishonest -- more famously than most people. But singling him out as having enemies is preposterous. Nixon didn't suddenly realize he had "enemies" after '60 and '62. He carried on about this in 1946 and from then on. It certainly poured out in the Checkers speech in 1952. All political figures, then and now, have enemies, who will do and say anything to make their point. The only difference is that today they show no restraint and lie repeatedly. But Nixon's own worst enemy was always himself.

To say simply that Johnson was "much worse" than Nixon is nearly meaningless, so broad as to be inaccurate on its face. In what way? In some things, no doubt so. Neither man was an admirable character in many facets of his life, yet each had some positive qualities as well. These aren't cartoons we're dealing with here, and you seem to be bent on demonizing a one-dimensional Johnson as you accuse others of demonizing Nixon or McCarthy. But I would like to know this story about FDR preventing LBJ from going to jail in the 30s for bribery and vote fraud. I've read several biographies of Johnson and never ran across any such story, not even in Robert Caro's exhaustive and unsympathetic biography. Refresh my memory, please.

[Note to other readers: the manipulation and interpretation of history does indeed have something in common with Mission to Moscow...so we're not really too off-target here.]

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This article seems like the best record, from an author Robert Dallek who is known to be sympathetic to Democrats.

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1991/5/1991_5_84.shtml

an excerpt:

"Johnson’s unsavory reputation is well deserved. He was a master fixer who never met an election he couldn’t manipulate. In 1937, when he made his first run for a congressional seat, he broke all the campaign finance laws, and his managers apparently gave Elliott Roosevelt, FDR’s son, a five-thousand-dollar bribe for a telegram implying FDR’s support of LBJ. Someone in the Agriculture Department allowed Johnson campaigners to distribute parity checks to farmers, further identifying LBJ with FDR and a popular New Deal program in Texas’s Tenth Congressional District.

In 1941 Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes helped suppress an FBI investigation of LBJ’s fund raising in the 1940 congressional campaigns.

In 1944 FDR settled an Internal Revenue Service investigation of Brown & Root, a Texas construction firm that put hundreds of thousands of dollars into Johnson’s 1941 Senate campaign. The uninhibited pursuit of the inquiry could have sent Johnson’s closest supporters to prison and ruined his career.

In 1946 Tommy Corcoran, an FDR fixer and later a Washington attorney, helped Johnson secretly obtain the military records of his opponent in hopes of finding something they could use against him in the primary campaign.

In 1948 Corcoran and Attorney General Tom Clark, whom Johnson had helped win his appointment by Truman, apparently lobbied Associate Justice Hugo Black to reject Coke Stevenson’s plea that Johnson’s tainted victory over him in the Democratic senatorial primary was grounds for keeping LBJ off the November ballot.

In his 1954 primary campaign Johnson received help from the Federal Bureau of Investigation against a hopelessly outclassed opponent who commanded less than 30 percent of the vote. When John Kennedy won the nomination in 1960, Johnson aggressively sought the Vice Presidency, something he denied to his dying day but which now is confirmed by abundant evidence. John Connally says that LBJ asked him to arrange a draft at the 1968 Democratic convention despite his March 31 announcement that he wouldn’t run again.

The Federal Communications Commission offers yet another example of Johnson’s behind-the-scenes manipulation. There is telling evidence in the recollections of Arthur Stehling, a Fredericksburg, Texas, attorney and a friend of Johnson, in FBI wiretaps of Tommy Corcoran, and in the pattern of FCC actions that despite his insistent denials, Johnson effectively manipulated the FCC into favorable decisions affecting his considerable broadcasting properties."

end of quote

also from that article:
"“Why do the people like Bobby Kennedy more than they like me?” Johnson asked former Secretary of State Dean Acheson. “Because, Mr. President,” Acheson replied, “you’re not a very likable person.” The hatred of Johnson, someone told the historian William E. Leuchtenburg, springs from the fact that “Johnson took something that was great and important… and … made it small. It’s as though he defecated in the Oval Office.” What people are angry about “is the vulgarization of the presidency.” Johnson, Leuchtenburg concluded, “debased the office he had sworn to uphold.”

Twenty years after he left the White House, the dislike of Johnson had not abated. A November 1988 Louis Harris poll on presidential performance from Franklin Roosevelt to Ronald Reagan consistently ranked Johnson near or at the bottom of eleven categories. Asked which of these Presidents made people feel proudest of being an American, most inspired confidence in the White House, and could be trusted most in a crisis, respondents consistently put LBJ last alongside Gerald Ford and behind Richard Nixon. "

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I've read Dallek's bio on Johnson and vaguely recall this American Heritage article. But first things first -- your quote was, "it was only the intervention of Franklin Roosevelt that kept young congressman Johnson from going to prison in the 1930s..." The details you subsequently cite say nothing whatsoever about FDR "intervening" to keep LBJ out of prison -- in fact, the statement that he would have gone to prison is itself an assumption, not a fact. Your assertion about Roosevelt's alleged actions is, therefore, unsupported by any proffered fact.

That said, the idea that Johnson was a manipulator and even cheat is hardly hot news. This knowledge has been kicking around for decades, during and after Johnson's lifetime. No one, that I know of, defends any of it, certainly not me. But if you think that Johnson's actions were somehow unique or even particularly egregious, particularly in the context of Texas politics in that era, think again. Corruption in Texas politics, whether of money or votes or any other favors, was rife and common. None of this is intended to justify or mitigate anything Johnson did, only put it in context. Had Johnson not become president, his many misdeeds would have been no more remembered than those of hundreds of other Texas pols who never rose above state office.

Moreover, many if not most members of Congress used their influence to help derail political opponents or gain some financial advantage, usually via "fixers" or whatever pejorative term you want to use. Again, there was nothing unique to Johnson in all this, except for the dubious compliment that he may have been better or more relentless about it than most other people. Most of the examples Dallek cites involve the use of influence, which is not necessarily criminal to begin with. This may all be disgusting and some of it illegal, but it was hardly something Johnson alone was guilty of. To repeat, that this doesn't excuse any of his actions, but he was anything but alone in doing such things. Very little of what went on in Congress 50 or 60 or 70 years ago would pass legal muster today, let alone any ethics rules. But a lot of it was in fact perfectly "legal" back then.

Sen. Robert Taft of Ohio, for example, took tens of thousands of dollars throughout his Senate career from wealthy men whose causes he supported in Washington. Taft believed that since he was working in their interests and didn't have the income thay did, it was perfectly reasonable for them to support him financially. Taft rationalized this by saying he couldn't be bribed, that he would have voted in ways favorable to their interests anyway, which was undoubtedly true, but he still took what amounted to payoffs for 14 years as a United States Senator, and never made any apologies for it -- though he didn't publicize it, either.

Anyway, most of the Dallek's examples don't involve criminal activities -- unethical, perhaps, but not breaking the law. Getting powerful people to use their influence is not in itself criminal. Johnson's effort to get Black to quash the further investigation of the 1948 Texas primary was a use of influence and friends, but not criminal. Of course, Johnson notoriously stole votes to secure his win in the 1948 Democratic Senate primary over Coke Stevenson. What's less mentioned is that Stevenson, in time-honored Texas tradition, stole thousands of votes himself, then and before. Most major candidates in Texas in those days made similar deals with corrupt county bosses across the state. Johnson simply out-stole Stevenson, just as in a 1941 special Senate primary, then Governor Pappy O'Daniel out-stole Johnson. All this was criminal, but if Johnson could be prosecuted, so could everybody. There is no reason to single him out, except for his later notoriety and office.

The final two quotes are interesting but in the end reflect nothing more than personal opinions. In a number of ways I agree with some of it, but then, that's just my opinion, too -- not "fact". Nixon, Kennedy, Ford, Bush (41) and other long-time Washington hands, presidents and otherwise, used their positions to obtain favors and gain political or financial advantages over others. Reagan did this in California, and Bush 43, long before he was president, received one favor after another from rich men currying favor with his father, from bailing out his failed oilbusiness to financing his way into part owenrship of the Texas Rangers and allowing him to cash out with unearned millions. Don't hold out Johnson as some lone manipulator single-handedly dragging Washington's ethical standards down.

By the way, Brown & Root is the same firm that, after mergers and acquisitions, is today's Halliburton. Ironies never cease.

Maybe we should at some point drag this back on track regarding Mission to Moscow.

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From a book review of _Scandal_ by Suzanne Garment:

...Almost from the outset of his career, Johnson was a favorite of Franklin D. Roosevelt. In 1941 he fought an unsuccessful campaign in the Democratic Senate primary in Texas, raising and spending $200,000 by blatant criminal tax frauds in violation of the Hatch Act. IRS inspectors got onto him and in due course accumulated overwhelming evidence which could have sent Johnson to jail. On January 13 and 17, 1944, Johnson and his lawyer-fixer Alvin Wirtz went to see Roosevelt in the White House. On the 14th, the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, Elmer Irey, was summoned to the White House, and by the evening of the 17th a new agent was assigned to the case with orders to drop any prosecution and negotiate fines. Treasury Secretary Morgenthau was in no doubt that presidential intervention saved Johnson from prison....

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I don't know either the book or author you cite, but according to two of Johnson's responsible biographers -- the highly unsympathetic Robert Caro, in his first volume on Johnson's life, The Path to Power (pp. 742-753), and the more objective Robert Dallek, in the first volume of his biography of Johnson, Lone Star Rising (pp. 246-253) -- both recount in far greater detail the events quoted in your post. You can look up these passages yourself, but in both men's accounts the IRS was not investigating Johnson, but Brown & Root, for income tax evasion, in the course of which they came across evidence of B&R's payments to Johnson's 1941 campaign. The investigation centered not on Johnson but on the company, which was plainly guilty of tax evasion and liable for both the taxes owed (about $1,100,000) plus penalties of between $300,000 - $550,000. The investigation began in 1942 and culminated as your citation says in January 1944. Clearly, FDR used his influence to have a new investigator named, who quickly found the charges lacking, and then have Treasury Secretary Henry Morganthau call off the investigation on grounds of insufficient evidence, which he had previously refused to do.

According to both Dallek and even Caro, there was no possibility that Johnson would face prison or any direct legal repercussions over this matter, since he personally did not profit from the funds expended on his campaign. Nor did he "raise and spend $200,000 by blatant criminal tax frauds" (is there any other kind of tax fraud besides a "criminal" one?); B&R was accused of tax evasion, the investigation of which led in part to investigations of their funding of Johnson's campaign. The money itself was not "raised and spent" by a tax fraud, which makes no sense. The IRS never alleged tax fraud on the part of either Johnson or his campaign; his campaign received money from a firm that was itself being investigated for tax evasion. This may have tainted the money and revealed other details of Johnson's fund-raising that could have hurt his career, but was not criminal as far as he was concerned.

Both Caro and Dallek say the real problem for Johnson would have been political, in that any criminal proceedings against B&R would have tarred him and deprived him of his major source of campaign funding in the future -- enough, they say, so that Johnson briefly considered retiring from politics and going into business. Neither author cites any remark or belief by Morgenthau (who is portrayed, accurately, as above reproach in this affair) that Roosevelt "saved Johnson from prison", let alone that jail time, an indictment or any legal penalty was even a possibility for Johnson. Nor is there any mention of supposed violations of the Hatch Act, which prohibits the participation in political activities of civil servants and public employees -- and so could not apply to a private firm's activities unless that firm was engaged in such activity with a proscribed person; in short, the Hatch Act could not even enter into this situation as it was utterly irrelevant to it. The fact that Roosevelt intervened may be unethical, but it was -- and basically still is -- routine for all politicians, of both parties and every ideology, another case of having an influential individual -- even the President -- help out an ally for political reasons. It may not be "right", but it is hardly news.

The breathless and rather sloppy writing of the account you cite leads me to suspect the knowledge and ability of the author, quite apart from whatever ideological or political ax she may have had to grind. Her obvious lack of understanding of the Hatch Act, and use of such pejorative terms as "fixer" (one of your favorites, too, it appears), seriously calls into question her objectivity, research and credentials. Both Caro and Dallek are highly competent historians who have deeply researched all aspects of Johnson's life, and while Dallek is reasonably even-handed in his treatment of Johnson, Caro is (notoriously) strongly biased against him, which suits his black-and-white style of interpretation. Yet, he is very good in digging up facts. Their accounts of this event, lengthy and thorough, are certainly more trustworthy than some quick, partly inaccurate, slash job.

Anyway, this site is not dedicated to the excoriation, or even discussion, of Lyndon Johnson. If you wish to continue to do so, may I suggest going the PM route? I will close with just one last thought here, for posterity, and that is, ignoble and devious as Johnson often was, crude as he certainly was, the irrefutable fact remains that when it came to public policy -- the titanic disaster of Vietnam aside, for a moment -- Lyndon Johnson achieved some great things for this country as President, most notably in the field of civil rights. He was a complex and, to many, not very likeable person, but he was not some pure incarnation of ruthless evil who did nothing for anyone else. He lived large and accomplished many good things for millions of people. Unfortunately, his personal demons and drives, his unflagging ambitions, too often got the better of him, and in many ways much of his life was a tragedy, like Nixon's. But no man is simply a cartoon, two-dimensional, all good or all bad, and Lyndon Johnson, for both good and ill, was certainly no cartoon.

Now -- someone -- back to Mission to Moscow????

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This has been an interesting and educational exchange -- I've learned a few things about Johnson which I never would have otherwise.

My original point was not to address LBJ's activities in the 1930s or 1940s, but to compare his activities in the White House with Nixon's. And that only came about because of how Nixon was treated by the left-wing press.

Mission to Moscow? I might have mentioned earlier that I didn't see the film. I only joined this thread after I saw that it was going to be on TCM.

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Well, I've learned many things too, and it's always good to have a discussion with someone who has interesting insights and views and knowledge to propound.

One of my points, which you touched upon, is that use of terms such as "left-wing" press is irresponsible and frought with idelogical attacks, not accuracy or reason. Most newspapers in this country have historically been conservative, not liberal, and in fact in FDR's era some of the most irresponsible press were papers such as The Los Angeles Times and Chicago Tribune, which up into the 1960s were parochial, rabidly right-wing and distorted papers which by their own admission slanted their news -- not just opinion, but news -- toward the Republican Party. Fortunately, the press today, while often sloppy and guilty of pack journalism -- against Dems as well as Reps -- is more educated and even-handed than in the past, although Fox News is certainly a throwback to biased reporting.

Well, we may have exhausted this topic, but it has been interesting.

Now, as to MTM, I'd say, try watching it again sometime. It really is a fascinating piece of history, specifically because of its falsehoods and intentions. I've always found propaganda films interesting because of how they manipulate facts for their purposes -- I have a few Nazi and Soviet films, not documenatries but entertainment films like MTM, that were designed to propagandzie through lies even as they set about telling a story. As long as you stay ahead of such films, understand their lies and purposes, and through other sources find out something about them and their subject matter so as to properly learn and assess the truth, they can be entertaining and informative in their own way. Unfortunately, TCM doesn't run Mission to Moscow often -- maybe once a year -- but next time it's on, do try it. It's also now available on DVD, as I wrote in another thread here, but you probably won't want to be bothered with the disc, though it may eventually become available for download through Amazon or someplace.

Anyway, great talking with you!

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Quote: "Fortunately, the press today, while often sloppy and guilty of pack journalism -- against Dems as well as Reps -- is more educated and even-handed than in the past, although Fox News is certainly a throwback to biased reporting."

You will never convince me of this. FNC is far more "fair and balanced" than MSNBC, for example. It has some very hard-nosed conservative commentators, but they have their own producers and do not share them with the news-reporting programs like Special Report or The Fox Report. NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN all slant their news coverage to the left, and I say that as someone who used to watch ALL of them at one time or another. I don't really watch FNC that often, as I mostly do not care to get my news from TV; but it is where I go when something big is happening.

I gave up on CBS in the early 1980s, when I got tired of hearing about the homeless EVERY DAY and the Reagan Administration was to blame. I quit on NBC in the mid-1990s when EVERY DAY their evening newscast had a pro-gun control story. ABC? No single incident that I can recall, maybe just their replacement of David Brinkley with "Sam and Cokie" and then George Stephanopoulus. CNN, at one time I had two TVs and one was always tuned to CNN, usually with the sound turned down. When I saw bias, I'd send off an email to complain. Eventually I found Ted Turner's "green" agenda was showing up everywhere in their news coverage, and they seemed to take their talking points from the DNC.

I used to subscribe to my local regional daily paper. But it changed editors and now the front page above the fold usually has one or sometimes two stories from the NYT news service. So I cancelled. The NYT doesn't bother to pretend that it has no bias.

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Well, there's no point in arguing about differences of ideological opinions, but the notion that FNC is "fair and balanced" is preposterous. I'm not talking about their commentators, although people like Hannity and especially Beck are just plain stupid individuals -- I mean that literally: ignorant and stupid as well as prejudiced. But Fox's news is equally slanted, albeit under the pretense -- lie -- of being objective. They routinely cut all their stories against Democrats and in favor of Republicans. How else explain that the Bush White House, as it admitted, routinely sent talking points to FNC for use during its "news" broadcasts every day? Or that Congressional Republicans insist on only watching FNC -- because they're seeking "fair and balanced" reporting?

One early example of FNC bias, committed without their, technically, lying: during the 2000 Florida recount, they had side-by-side interviews with Katherine Harris and Robert Butterworth. Harris of course was the FL Secretary of State, a Republican, and nominal chairwoman of Bush's Florida campaign. Butterworth was State Attorney General, a Democrat, and nominal chairman of Gore's Florida campaign. Throughout, Harris was identified soley as Sec'y of State -- no party affiliation given, and no mention of her role in Bush's campaign. Butterworth, by contrast, was identified as "Gore Florida Campaign Chairman" -- no mention of his being the chief law enforcement officer of the state. The effect (apart from the way the interviews were edited) was to cast Butterworth as a political hack making partisan statements without any legal foundation, while Harris was put in the light of being an honest, objective, non-partisan state official giving an unbiased finding on the race (which just happened to be all in favor of Bush). Technically, these idenifications were not inaccurate, as Fox claimed -- but the overall effect was the same as a lie. Nor is this something unique in Fox's news coverage. When two Republican Congressman, Ney of Ohio and Foley of Florida, were forced out of the House amid scandals a few years ago, in each case, FNC identified them as Democrats during a full day of coverage; only the next day did they finally "correct" the record, albeit burying the truth. Time and again there have been examples of their reporters stating inaccurate, incomplete or politically biased "facts", seldom corrected.

As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, you're not entitled to your own facts.

Everyone has their own opinions and biases, reporters, news people, you and me, all of us. I trained as a reporter (and have ben a subject of a couple of minor news stories I know to have been inaccurate or misleading in parts, largely due to the incompetence and poor ability of the reporter) and know there is no such thing as perfect objectivity. The defensiveness of many in the profession, this occasional attitude of being irresponsible or biased or taking sides in an interview or whatever, while denying any such thing, I find often ridiculous if not downright disingenuous. But if the press was mostly committed to a left-wing bias, how to explain the negative coverage Obama's been getting of late, expecially in the last few weeks -- it's been relentless and over the top, to put it mildly...and on Fox, unmistakably smiling and triumphant in tone, by any honestly objective measure.

From the kind of stories and other grievances you listed against the other networks, the NY Times and so on, it's clear that what really upset you was that they did stories, and perhaps assumed a "bias", about subjects and in ways that don't square with your personal conservative views. That being the case, it's equally clear that the real reason you find FNC "fair and balanced" has to do with the fact that they slant things toward your political leanings. Of course, many people only consider news or coverage that agrees with their personal opinions as "fair" or "objective". It's a rarer individual who can detect and be honest and open about prejudice and lies from groups he agrees with. I've seen biased coverage in the Times, for example, even though I more often agree with their editorial policies than not. I have an aversion to any bias I find, left or right, since I'm interested in facts, not in some hack job that "agrees" with me. It's pretty clear that, far from seeking "objectivity", you prefer an outlet that is avowedly conservative in its biases. Pity, because perhaps now more than ever there's a crying need for genuine fairness and objectivity in our public life. To regard the most notoriously dishonest network in the news business, whose political biases are so blatant the RNC as well as the Bush White House have openly used it as extensions of their partisan activities, which was founded by a conservative media mogul and is headed by a former Republican campaign operative and avowed partisan, as a "fair and balanced" news source -- merely echoing their own lying slogan -- is laughable.

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Quote: "there's no point in arguing about differences of ideological opinions, but the notion that FNC is "fair and balanced" is preposterous. I'm not talking about their commentators, although people like Hannity and especially Beck are just plain stupid individuals -- I mean that literally: ignorant and stupid as well as prejudiced. But Fox's news is equally slanted, albeit under the pretense -- lie -- of being objective. They routinely cut all their stories against Democrats and in favor of Republicans."

I do not like Hannity at all, but Beck has been doing some good work lately -- not even talking about current affairs, but investigating the origins of the progressive movement. Nothing stupid about that.

Still, those individuals are identified as commentators, not as news reporters or journalists.

I don't know, maybe what FNC should say is "more fair and balanced than any other cable news network". Would that work?

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No, because Fox isn't at all fair, balanced or objective. But obviously they're selling a product to a narrow constituency (like every other TV outlet, cable, broadcast, of any kind), so like others they fashion their channel, and the way they sell it, to suit the biases of their target audience.

I'm only slightly aware of this "investigation" of the alleged "progressive movement" Beck claims to be making, so I can't judge much about it, except to say that if the past is indeed prologue, it has to be prejudiced, dishonest and uninformed. This is the guy who a couple of months ago endeavored to give a definition of an "oligarch" (I forget in connection with what fantasy conspiracy), by assigning a supposedly descriptive word to every letter of "oligarch"...except, on his studio blackboard, he misspelled "oligarch" (he left out the c), and what he said was hackneyed, unfathomable, stream-of-consciousness, ludicrous hash.

Beck's also the one who started this business denouncing the Republican candidate in the special election in NY23 in Nov. as a liberal picked not by the voters but by party leaders, and backing and praising the Conservative Party candidate -- despite the fact that he had never heard of the guy and knew nothing about him, including the tidbit that he didn't even live in the district. The conservative newspaper in Watertown interviewed all three candidates and denounced this guy as uninformed about the district, and as giving only broad, right-wing talking-point answers to the editorial board's questions, whereupon he whined that he should have been given the questions beforehand (unlike the others) because he didn't realize they'd be so tough. Aw, gee. (The questions were in fact printed in that morning's paper, had the candidate bothered to look at it.) But Beck went to the mat and championed this jerk, bringing in his fellow know-nothings like Palin, none of whom knew who this man was or anything about him either. In the end, the Republican withdrew and endorsed the Democrat, who won. Don't these people even bother finding out whether the person they're backing is smart or qualified, not just that he spouts their cliches? The irony is that while Beck denounced the fact that the Republican had been nominated by the district's county chairmen and not the voters, he failed to mention that this is NY State law (he was right, the voters should be the ones to choose, but the chairmen didn't do something illegal), and he certainly never mentioned that, his rhetoric about democracy notwithstanding, the Conservative Party candidate was chosen by one man, the boss of the NYS Conservative Party. Beck deals in fantasy conspiracies, emotions and misinformation, but if all one ever listens to is Fox, then one is prey for such claptrap.

He's also the one who accused Obama of racism, a moronic statement that not even his fellows at FNC would echo. And for which he wasn't fired, suspended or even rebuked by his network, nor did he apologize or take it back. By contrast, when MSNBC's David Shuster said on air in 2008 that the Clinton campaign was "pimping out" Chelsea in the race, he was immediately called to account by the NBC brass, was suspended without pay for two weeks, forced to apologize on air in a statement run every hour the first day, and was criticized by name, on the air, by his NBC colleagues, including Brian Williams, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow. So much for FNC-style fairness, balance, and journalistic ethics.

One of the big differences I've seen is that liberal politicians or media people usually own up to their misdeeds and pay the requisite price, while supposedly more moral -- certainly moralistic -- conservative pols and media people always find reasons not to apologize, and certainly not to resign or do the other forms of contrition they vociferously demand of liberals -- people such as Senator David Vitter (prostitutes, marital infidelity, lies), Sen. John Ensign (marital infidelity, payoffs, misuse of party and federal funds, lies), and Gov. Mark Sanford (marital infidelity, misuse of state funds, lies), to name a recent threesome. But, being conservatives and "Christians", they know they've been forgiven, so have no need to leave office or do the things they insist others in the same predicament should do. (All three were loud in their denunciations of Bill Clinton, for example.)

Anyway, what does "the origins of the progressive movement" mean? What "movement"? What are his terms and definitions? It's this loose kind of conspiratorial talk -- giving credence to birthers, the tea bag brigades with their often racist signs (usually misspelled) calling Obama a Nazi or Communist, the near-murderous rage directed even against some Republicans, and the like -- and all promoted (including in ads) and praised by FNC "news" people, not just commentators -- that has blackened the good name of serious, honest conservatives, like Reagan and Goldwater, men without hate or lunatic ravings as part of their repertoire...agree with them or not (as I often did not, personally). God save our country from people with the certitude, self-satisfaction and self-anointed righteousness born of abysmal ignorance and disrespect for the laws and norms of society and civil discourse, whose ruthlessness and violence threaten to consume this nation and corrupt our democracy.

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You're wrong on so many facts that it's clear you never watch FNC and only get your information about it from Media Matters or some other far-left source.

The WOMAN (not "the guy") who was hand-picked by the Republican Central Committee in the 23rd District of New York was more liberal than the Democrat who eventually won. The chairman of that committee resigned in disgrace. Also, how do you know the Conservative Party candidate was a jerk? Or what he told the local newspaper in Watertown? are you from Watertown? And how do you know what Beck actually said, if you never watch his show?

I'm not sure about the racism charge, unless it's got something to do with Obama's reflexive criticism of the white policeman who arrested a rowdy black college professor. Obama automatically assumed the worst of the policeman, then "sort of" apologized when he learned the details. Eventually both the cop and the professor were invited to the White House for coffee or a beer. But the fact remains that Obama's first reaction was to assume that the black professor was the victim of police brutality.

As for conspiracy mongering, Beck has been exceptionally careful to document every charge; he must have a staff of at least eight researchers and fact-checkers. He does not make ad hominem attacks, unlike Keith Olbermann for instance.

He has never done a program questioning the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate -- or at least not since the 2008 election, as sufficient evidence was presented prior to the election to persuade any reasonable person. You may be thinking of someone else, there are late-night radio hosts who do that sort of stuff.

Regarding the progressive movement, it's been around since the days of Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Robert La Follette, Benito Mussolini, etc., in the early 20th century. You've never heard of it?

Regarding the Tea Party movement, the swastika on a sign which Nancy Pelosi made such a big deal about HAD A SLASH THROUGH IT. In other words, it was a NO NAZIS sign, not a pro-Nazi sign! That story was distorted nearly as much as the one about a person show who showed up at a Tea Party rally with a semi-automatic weapon. Yes, someone did, and the photograph was widely distributed. But several news organizations EDITED the photograph to disguise the fact that the man with the firearm was an African-American. And that he was dressed in a nice jacket and tie, like a member of the educated middle-class, not a hooligan or Black Panther

Lastly, the term "teabagger", or variations on that term, identify the user as a douche-bag and a person whose opinions are not worth considering seriously. Certainly not on the topic of propaganda, as it identifies that person as one susceptible to the most outrageous falsehoods.

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Some facts:

(1) I've barely ever heard of Media Matters, have never seen it, so I have no idea what they say. Apparently for you anyone critical of FNC has to be some "far-leftist" -- it isn't possible that someone could see them for the liars they often are and not be propagandizing for the opposite extreme.

(2) NOWHERE did I state that the Republican candidate in NY23 was a "guy" -- in fact, nowhere did I mention that person's sex. Re-read what I wrote, carefully this time. The "guy" I referred to was the Conservative Party candidate, as was quite clear, since I was referring to the candidate Beck et al were championing without even knowing anything about him. No, I don't live in Watertown. I read what the newspaper's editorial board said about the Conservative on line and in various papers, and also saw his whiny reaction that he should have been told the questions beforehand. The GOP county chairman who resigned did not do so "in disgrace" -- disgrace for what? That he helped pick a candidate who was then denounced by a lot of outsiders who don't live in the district, or even the state, and know nothing about the people involved? He quit because he came under pressure from disgruntled local Republicans. That sort of thing happens all the time, and for many reasons -- like the county finance chairman in Wisconsin who was forced from his job last year because he had had the temerity to criticize Rush Limbaugh. The debacle in NY23 was an entirely (and proudly) manufactured cause celebre by Beck, whose lead was slavishly followed by many national Republicans who feel they have to toady to his ilk. (The party of "individualism" that insists its members all toe the same line.) A few days after the Conservative lost, he was interviewed by Beck and made noises, encouraged by Beck, about challenging the election results -- of "un-conceding", as I believe Beck put it. Of course, nothing came of that.

(3)I don't know what Beck's racism charge referred to -- it may or may not have been spurred by the cop/professor episode, and that was a stupid thing for Obama to have said or even gotten involved with. But he made it as a general statement, not related to any single incident. He made it not on his show but on another Fox program. Aside from a vague statement from Rupert Murdoch a couple of days later that he (RM) doesn't think Obama's a racist, no action of any kind was taken against Beck, nor did he apologize for or withdraw his comments. This is in keeping with the insistence on the part of conservatives that liberals have to apologize for things that in some cases they had nothing to do with (for instance, the "General 'Betray-us'" crap from whichever liberal blog that was the other year, for which GOP senators demanded the Democrats apologize, though no one in the party had said it and all had denounced it); but when conservatives say or do something stupid, unconscionable or just flat wrong, they never get called on it by their fellows, as per my unrefuted examples last post.

And Beck, like Hannity and certainly O'Reilly, certainly does make ad hominem attacks, though his personal style may differ. I don't know how many so-called fact checkers he may use, he makes so many misstatements and misrepresentations he can't even be called out on all of them. Say what you will about Keith Olbermann (whom I don't personally care much for), but he has not ever been called out on a lie or mindless slur, and when he's made a mistake he's apologized and set the record straight.

(4)Still on Beck, once again, you accuse me of saying something I did not say. Where did I accuse Beck of being a birther? Answer: nowhere...although even you stated he had at one time questioned Obama's birth bona fides. (In fact, it was McCain, not Obama, who wasn't born in the United States.) But many conservatives, including most Republican congressmen, still try to play to the birther movement by refusing either to say that they believe Obama was born in the US, which apparently you acknowledge to be true, or saying that "as far as [they] know", he was born here. Sarah Palin played this game just the other week, saying in a radio interview that people are right to question Obama's birth legitmacy, then beating a hasty retreat to her Facebook page to deny that she thinks he wasn't born in this country. When relative moderate Republican congressman Mike Castle of Delaware refuted a woman's accusation at a town meeting last year that Obama wasn't a citizen, he was booed down by most of the crowd. Anyway, the only possible connection I made between Beck and the birthers is to state that many, maybe most, people in the so-called "teabag" movement are birthers, or at least have suspicions, as their many prominent signs to that effect at their rallies indicate. And since Beck is one of the leading promoters of the teabagger movement, while he may not agree that Obama is not a citizen, he has done nothing to stop such signs and activities at teabag rallies.

(5) When you wrote that Beck was doing an investigation of the Progressive movement, I almost asked whether you were referring to the one that took place a century and more ago -- but then assumed that was too ludicrous a question. Yes, thank you, I have heard of the Progressive movement, and may well know a great deal more about it than you do, having a degree in history and not getting my information from Glenn Beck. I find it hard to believe that Beck is confining himself to something of historic interest only, that is, that he is not trying to link the Progressives of the 1890s - 1920s with liberals or some other right-wing bogeymen of today. I know of his recent obsession with so-called Marxist (or is it his oxymoronic Marxist-Fascist?) art around Rockefeller Center, which to anyone with any education is hardly hot news -- the leftist sympathies of many of the artists hired by the Rockefellers in the 30s were well known then and have never been a secret, Beck's breathless "discovery" notwithstanding. In any case, where you got the idea that Benito Mussolini was a "progressive" is beyond me. (Well, actually, it isn't.) First, the "Progressive movement", as defined by you in citing TR, Wilson and LaFollette, had nothing whatsoever to do with Mussolini or with any foreign leader. The Progressive movement was exclusively an American phenomenon, beginning in the 1880s with the likes of James B. Weaver and William Jennings Bryan, through people such as Hiram Johnson in the 1910s and 20s, and even with LaFolette's two sons, in Wisconsin into the 30s and 40s. But the New Deal largely put paid to the by-then ancient rhetoric of the Progressives of the turn of the century.

To connect Mussolini with this movement is factually inaccurate, ridiculous, and clearly intended as a slur against all the modern liberals who have been cowed by right wing fanatics into thinking that "liberal" is a dirty word, and so dredged up "progressive" as a substitute. Mussolini was a socialist turned fascist, but could in no context be labeled a "progressive" as the word is historically understood. You could as well label Hitler a progressive, for certain of his views. Of course, the term "progressive" was used in other countries and by other political persuasions -- the Communists, for one, routinely used the term to describe someone with like-minded views to theirs (almost always referring to people in the West, less often among their own kind in the old Soviet bloc, where they used the word "socialist"). But these had nothing to do with the Progressive movement in the United States. Henry Wallace's Communist-infiltrated third-party presidential bid in 1948 used the name "Progressive Party", but it had absolutely nothing in common with LaFollette's Progressive Party of 1924, which in turn had little to do with -- and no direct connnection to -- Roosevelt's Progressive party of 1912. Mussolini's fascism had nothing whatever to do with any form of so-called "progressivism", and in any case nothing whatsoever to do with the "movement". There never was any such "movement" as a global, or international, entity or even concept. Every major country had its leftist parties, along with its rigthist ones, and obviously some similar themes arose in each nation. But a "movement" broad and organized and connected enough to warrant linking Mussolini with Woodrow Wilson? Factually wrong, and utterly idiotic. If anything, Mussolini's fascism is closer to Beck's politics than to these other people's.

(6) I'm sorry to make a personally nasty comment, but much of your post above made me wonder how smart you are, or at least how well you pay attention to things. First, there have been many signs featuring swastikas at teabag rallies, not just the one featuring Pelosi you cite as the supposed "lone" such sign. Most of these have featured pictures of Obama with a swastika across his face, with or without diagonal line. There have also been pictures of Obama altered to look like Hitler, and many featuring him with a hammer and sickle -- indicating at the least that most of these fools know nothing about history. (Tough to be both a Nazi and a Commie.) Now, of course these aren't "pro-Nazi signs" -- they're signs accusing Obama, Pelosi and whoever else of BEING Nazis. To say they're not "pro-Nazi", as if that was their intent, shows one to be either stupid or dishonest. They're calling their targets Nazis, not proclaiming their own Nazism...although I expect that some of them may hold views not at all inimical to some Nazi tenets, such as virulent racism. Do you really not get this simple fact? (I'm sure when some irresponsible liberals carried signs slurring Bush as Hitler, you, like all conservatives, took great umbrage, which clearly means you got the point of such signs.)

Worse than all this crap is the fact that Republican politicians have fallen all over themselves addressing teabag rallies, and not one has ever expressed regret at, let alone denounced, signs defaming the President of the United States or any other politician, whether as a Nazi or some other slur; or the signs calling Obama a Muslim or a foreigner. They all claim "not to have seen them". Even if true (which is not credible), does this relieve them of the responsibility of denouncing such stuff afterward? They sure demanded apologies for similar things lodged against Bush. Those signs, of course, they "saw". The gutless cowardice and utter lack of any semblance of principle or integrity by most Republican politicians, cowering before the teabaggers as if they were a majority of this country, or even of the Republican Party, is disgraceful. You want to denounce Obama or his policies, fine. But comparing him to a Nazi, or letting such accusations go unrebuked out of political fear and hatred? For supposedly responsible people, that's unforgivable. There has to be some line of decency and respect that politicians will not cross, even if many of their more lunatic supporters do. It reflects cowardice, cravenness, and an abysmal lack of leadership or civic responsibility.

(Although the Republicans are learning that they cannot, as they seemed to confidently think, control the teabagger movement. At a second such rally day, very sparesly attended anywhere, Texas Gov. Rick Perry and Sen. John Cornyn both tried to address the Texas event -- and both were roundly booed. The trouble in dealing with fanatics is that the fools who think they can harness them for their own purposes quickly discover that they won't automatically do their bidding, either -- not even for people like Perry, or the Republican-controlled Georgia state legislature, both of whom claim, in statements and in a legislative motion, that their states have a right to secede. This is false, but driven by their trying to prove they're more anti-Obama than others. The real word for such advocacy is, of course, treason.)

By the way, if FNC were the unbiased "news" source it claims to be, why the heavy advertising promotions for the teabag rallies last year -- as if they were covering a moon shot? These were staged political events (all such events are) by a political fringe, abetted by Fox news people and commentators, who claimed they were simply covering the news. Do you advertise the news? Give a political rally wall-to-wall coverage across the country? Bill O'Reilly justified it by saying that when the "Million Man March" on Washington was held in 1995, Fox gave that wall-to-wall coverage...which was fine except for the tiny fact that Fox News didn't go on the air until a year and a half later.

(7) Lastly, as to your final point, the term "teabagger" is, as far as I know, used by people in the so-called movement itself. If someone thinks of it in the disparaging terms you suggest (your erudite "douche-bag" remark), then that's that individual's opinion, but I doubt the teabaggers think of themselves that way, even the ones carrying signs like "I am a Christen" [sic], probably a good indicator of their level of tolerance, discourse and understanding. But I confess not getting your final sentence, "Certainly not on the topic of propaganda, as it identifies that person as one susceptible to the most outrageous falsehoods." This sentence reads as a complete non-sequitor to what came before it. Be that as it may, if your purpose was to indicate that teabaggers were not susceptible to outrageous falsehoods, this is patently untrue. One can't make a generalized statement that every teabagger is misinformed or prey to lies, slurs and other name-calling stupidities seen in abundance at their rallies -- any more than one can make a generalized statement that they are not -- but the available evidence is overwhelming that a great many, probably most, very clearly are in agreement with at least a goodly number of the lies, smears and ignorant slanders so vehemently expressed by so many teabaggers.

At a minimum, I have yet to hear anybody, amongst the teabaggers or on the right in general, denounce the scurrilous and bigoted attacks widely in evidence at teabag rallies, including your pal Beck, who likes to claim significant authorship of the movement (if that is indeed what it is). The failure of anyone connected to the teabaggers, whether as a participant, abettor, media cheerleader, speaker or whatever, to denounce the racists, crazies and other lunatic-fringers in the group, and instead keep it focused on honest policy differences, justifiably marks the teabag movement, however you want to spell it, as a radical fringe group who bring disgrace to themselves and their own views, even the few legitimate ones.

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Wow, you put a lot of work into that pile of horse droppings.

Did you know that the slur "teabagger" is commonly used by douche-bags? Probably not, but why not read your message again to see whether it's something you're proud of? If so, then send it off to your local newspaper signed with your real name.

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My apologies. I should have realized that sustained argument is a clearly inappropriate medium for someone who reduces all thought to the use of such terms as "horse droppings", "douche-bags" and similar civil and intellectually challenging concepts. Everything but "nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah". Saves a great deal of trouble over actually trying to refute anything through the use of facts and reason, that's for certain. Anyway, I trust these posts at long last close out this increasingly uninteresting and bizarre exchange (which has long since become inappropriate for this movie's site anyway). Fox News awaits...whatever your real name is.

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Do you really want me to refute, line by line, all that bogus crap? I thought since you already wasted so much of your own time, why should I waste mine.

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I'm not interested in anything more to do with you or your ignorance and name-calling. You can "waste" more of your time sending another mindless reply, but I won't tune in to read it or respond. If anybody else peruses this thread, they can make their own judgments about what we've each said, and how we said it. This is my farewell, at least to any of your posts, which have indeed become a waste. I'll let you have the final word if you want it (as I'm sure you will), since it'll go unread and unanswered by me, and you can feel as though you've "won" something.

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