MovieChat Forums > The Man in Grey (1946) Discussion > 116 minute version vs 90 minute version

116 minute version vs 90 minute version


Has anyone seen both versions or does anyone know what was cut from the original British release (which was 116 minutes). I have looked everywhere for the 116 minute version without success. If anyone has a clue where to get the 116 minute version I would appreciate it.

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Not sure what was cut out, but the longer is about. It was shown by BBC2 on 29/8/1994 and ran for 1 hour 51 minutes (i.e. 116 minutes sped up for PAL).

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I watched it today on chan.4, & stopwatch timed,without adverts,I clocked it at 87 minutes.Halliwells guide lists a running time of 116 minutes & although I worship Margaret Lockwood,I found the whole thing a bit turgid!

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The shorter international version was made after the longer British version had proved to be a success in London (to the utter amazement of its distributors who were convinced they had a flop on their hands!). To make the film more playable to international audiences more than twenty five minutes were later trimmed to create a print that ran for approximately 90 minutes.

This shorter international cut is sadly the version that has been shown most often ever since, even in Britain. The shorter print was more popular with cinema exhibitors when the film was re-released and screened periodically throughout the forties and fifties. A shorter running time meant that cinemas could squeeze more screenings in per day and therefore take more at the box office.

When it comes to television screenings, if they are a commercial channel like Channel Four (or their digital subsidiary Film Four who screened it most recently) they usually screen the shorter version. With a shorter running time of 90 minutes (87 minutes at PAL speed, with an approximately 4% faster frame rate than cinema projection speed), a commercial channel can fill a 105 minute transmission time slot with the film itself and at least three commercial breaks.

When B.B.C 2 screened 'The Man In Grey' in 1994 they showed the full length 116 minute version (running on television at 112 minutes at PAL speed). The reason for showing the rare longer version was simple. The B.B.C are not a commercial channel and could therefore fill a 112 minute time slot with the full length print itself, without having to slot in commercials that would have extended the time slot to approximately two hours and ten minutes on any commercial channel.

The full length print is exceedingly rare nowadays. Even the British video release from the nineties (now deleted) was the shorter version! A few prints were struck from the longer original British cinema release print in 1943 and retained (one is now owned by the British Film Insitute) and some are in private hands.

Back in the 1960s, one of these prints found its way into the hands of a cinema enthusiast working for the B.B.C who was responsible for selecting prints of old films for television screenings. This archive print has been screened occasionally by the B.B.C over the years, but when last shown in the nineties was in a degraded condition (poor definition, hissing and crackling damage to the soundtrack, and inumerable scratches, etc.)

The shorter version screened by Film Four is actually in much better condition. However, the cuts (actually made in 1943, after the brief original release) are substantial.

Cuts include:
Several lines and shots in the opening auction scene. A great deal of Martita Hunt's dialogue as the schoolmistress in the school scenes. A lot of the expositionary dialogue explaining Hesther's (Margaret Lockwood) social background. Scenes showing the developing friendship between Hesther and Clarissa (Phyllis Calvert). The introduction of the Gypsy woman character. The introduction of the servant boy Toby. A scene on Rohan's (James Mason) wedding day where he purchases a prize fighting dog. Dialogue between Hesther and Clarissa when they meet again. A line is cut for reasons of censorship in Rohan's insults to Hesther "You are a strolling player, with a reputation that would not bring discredit to a woman of the streets!"

The fairground scene is heavily shortened. Rohan's references to his prize fighting dog are cut because the earlier scene with the dog was also cut. Two uses of a certain offensive racial term have been cut out of the shorter version . Shots of the fairground hawkers, sword swallowers, low-life etc, were cut for reasons of timimg.

Cuts are made to later dialogue scenes between Clarissa and Rokeby (Stewart Granger), and scenes between Rohan and Hesther. Also cut are some of Hesther's solo moments where she debates her own actions.


I have both versions in my collection as a basis for comparison. The longer version is preferable, but with poorer picture quality than than the shorter (which now has the advantage of being screened digitally). We can only hope that the full length print will one day get a proper restoration and re-release on DVD. Don't hold your breath though. It would have to be profitable for anyone to bother.


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Thanks so much for the extended description of what happened to the 116 minute version of The Man In Grey and to the description of the deleted scenes. An extremely kind person has shared her copy of the 116 minute version with me so I have now seen it. The movie makes more sense with the restored scenes. I have a very good copy of the shortened version. I wonder what has happened to some of James Mason's other early movies, such as Troubled Waters and The Patient Vanishes (aka as This Man is Dangerous). Do you know if the BFI has copies of those films? It's odd how some of his early films have made their way to VHS and DVD while others, maybe more worthwhile, have just vanished.

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[deleted]

Hallelujah! I just pre-ordered it and let's hope for the best! This has been a banner year for release or re-release of James Mason films (The Reckless Moment, The Deadly Affair, The Shooting Party (all English releases), The Man Between (Germany), They Met in the Dark (Germany), and Julius Caesar (US). The new release of Julius Caesar is a beautiful print. Duke, if you are a Mason fan and would like to correspond, please email me at [email protected].

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Drat. We can't get it over here in Watts.

Nothing is more beautiful than nothing.

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Any hope at all that we can get the extended version in the US? I saw this movie when I was a teenager, and recall just loving it, and would love to see it again. I'm quite certain I saw it on TCM, but I don't know which version I saw. I'd really love to see the longer version...so if anyone has any info on where to get it in the US, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

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Film4 (UK digital channel) is currently showing the full version of this.



"Tinkerty tonk," I said, and I meant it to sting.

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Also to show on Film4 on 15th August 2007 at 13.00

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No, they are showing a slightly shortened version. Not as shortened as the version they were screening earlier this year (see my postings above for a list of the cuts between the 116 minute and the 90 minute versions), but they have made two cuts for censorship reasons.

Two uses of the racially derogatory 'n' word have been cut out by Film4. The old B.B.C print screened in the nineties included this dialogue and was fully uncut.

Ironic that Film4 would censor a film from 1943! Television channels also regularly have problems with the use of this word when screening the war film 'The Dambusters'. Film4's standards are rather inconsistent however, as they screened 'Kind Hearts and Coronets' uncut a few months ago, with its three uses of this offensive racial term intact on the soundtrack.

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The BFI are currently showing the edited version of this film!!

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Set Rita Free!www.petitiononline.com/bkalbum

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...but that was a mistake that has now been rectified.

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Set Rita Free!www.petitiononline.com/bkalbum

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Having just seen the BFI screening -- which is indeed in appalling condition, with words partially missing from the dialogue due to splices -- I have to say that this news of a shortened version probably explains why I was disappointed enough, alas, to downgrade my earlier rating of this film. It would almost certainly have been the Channel 4 transmission that I originally saw, and I'm afraid that speeding up the action very likely did benefit a film which came across as unexpectedly flat on the second, longer viewing. (Also, any reduction of Toby's role could only have been an improvement; the child actor involved is simply not very good, and every time he opens his mouth he sounds as if he is reading his lines.)

I remembered the film as a full-blooded melodrama like "The Wicked Lady", but the picture screening at the National Film Theatre this week seemed to share little of the humour and spirit of its successor, which I enjoyed very much. Phyllis Calvert does a very good job of making the incredibly sweet-natured heroine believable, though -- and she isn't half lovely....

~~Igenlode

Gather round, lads and lasses, gather round...

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[deleted]


Each to their own, but I think it's wonderful.

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Set Rita Free!www.petitiononline.com/bkalbum

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Have to say, having watched the longer one again, I am inclined to agree with Igenlode. TMIG doesn't have quite the spirit that TWL or even Love Story has - it's still good, but lacking in pace and humour. There are some very good moments, however, and it's worth seeing.

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Set Rita Free!www.petitiononline.com/bkalbum

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[deleted]

Movie girl: I wonder why that is the case with James Mason's earlier films.
A friend of mine recently spoke with someone at the BFI and one of his lost
films can be seen there in a screening room. I would love to see James Mason's early films too! Troubled Waters and The Patient Vanishes are on my list! If I get better info. can write back to you.

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I can answer your questions about the early Mason films.

BFI has a copy of CATCH AS CATCH CAN - which can be viewed only in the Reuben Library in London; TROUBLED WATERS and BLIND MAN'S BLUFF - which are in bad shape are kept in a vault offsite and cannot be viewed by anyone; BFI does not have copies of PRISON BREAKER or THE PATIENT VANISHES (which is considered a "lost film")

I watched CATCH AS CATCH CAN and found it very boring, a quota quickie at its worse. However, Mason was real eye candy, so I bravely suffered through.

What I'm looking for are the 6 episodes of Play House 90 that starred Mason. So far, no luck. The sad thing is that the performances were live and many were never taped.

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Thank you for the very informative, accurate description, duke-verity!

I have seen the original version in Lisbon, at the Portuguese Film Archives, a copy borroughed from the National Film and Television Archive (UK). There was a warning that the copy had a persistent low noise in the soundtrack, and I noticed it but nothing that would make one wince; also the picture looked a bit faded, otherwise it was an OK film, considering it is ageing since 1943.
I do join the group of fans pleading for a good DVD quality re-release, for different reasons, namely the cuts you refer.

As time goes by, what looked racial slur to some censors looked perfectly historical fact to me, and no unbiased references. I, too, grew up with the idea that a black man is just that, a black man, like a white man is just a white man; but my education was in a non-segregation society, in a country that abolished slavery well before of the UK or the USA. One *beep* was a black man, not an animal lower than a street dog!

The opening auction scene, the introductions of the Gypsy woman and of the servant boy, Rohan's scream at his wife that she is a «strolling player», all the fairground scenes (namely the subdued eroticism of the attention given to the topless male wrestlers by the ladies in the crowd...), are so important to the fluidity of the story, and the ambience in which the two male leads lived that I can't figure the film without them!

I can not remember the scene you mention of Rohan's (James Mason's) purchase of a prize fighting dog, however. Eventually it was the only cut in the film in the particular copy I mention above. At the fairground, there is a peculiar scene in which Clarissa tries to watch some ground action from behind a wall of shoulder-to-shoulder people watching something (off camera), and that may be the dog fight otherwise excised by the censor's scissors.

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Thank you for your comments, Artemis-9.

The scene where Rohan purchases a fighting dog comes just before the bridal chamber scene on Rohan and Clarrisa's wedding night. The scene is in the 116 minute print, but cut from the 90 minute version. There is no actual dog fight scene in either version, just this purchase of the dog, and an exchange of dialogue in the later fairground scene referring to the animal's earning power in Rohan's wagers.

If you want a DVD copy of the full length version (including the two uses of the dreaded 'N' word) you can get it from the Network DVD U.K. It runs at approximately 112 minutes (25 f.p.s, 4% PAL speedup: with nothing missing from the print).

You should be able to get a DVD of this version through Amazon, or through networkdvd.co.uk. It also has the theatrical trailer, and a television interview with James Mason, recorded shortly before he died.

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Movie girl: I am a big Margaret Lockwood fan and would love to have the longer
version as well as the shorter. Have never seen it. I do have some old VHS with a little crackling noise and maybe the prints are not perfect, but are
very watchable. So those little imperfections would not get to me maybe.

I have lots of Margaret's films and do love 30's and 40's great British films. I would be happy to send you any you would like from my collection.

I just noticed your post is from a few years ago, but hope you will see mine here.
Thanks!

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Begorrah! Criterion, that paragon of restorers of distinguished films, has recently released the 116 minute full version, together with "Madonna of the Seven Moons" and "The Wicked Lady", in a set entitled "Eclipse 36: Three Wicked Films from Gainsborough Pictures". It's available from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, www.criterion.com, and other sources.



"Believe not what you only wish to believe, but that which truth demands"

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Movie girl: Thank you so much for the information. I will check with Amazon right away about obtaining the longer version of The Man in Grey!

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Movie girl: Thank you so much for the information. I will check with Amazon right away about obtaining the longer version of The Man in Grey!

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