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I don't understand why women like this movie

posted 18 years ago by jdlund
52 replies | jump to latest

To clarify the subject line, I am not criticizing sappy romance comedies. There are certainly a number of films in that genre I actually like. There is just something I have never understood about the popularity of this movie. Why weren't women offended by the film? I understand the enjoyment of romantic movies, but this was so blatantly misogynistic that I have always been confused at the fact that women I know as well as the ones that comment on this discussion board seem to really like the movie. We have the central character Kate, an ambitious, successful business woman. She, through mystical powers and the like, comes into contact with a man from 1876. He treats her with the chivalrous customs indicative of his culture. She, finding his displays of 'respect' and 'courtesy' flattering, falls in love with him and so forth and so on.

Yet chivalry was never about respect or courtesy. It was a code of behavior that rose from a society that treated women as though they were helpless infants. Chivalry was based in the mentality that women were incapable of taking care of themselves and thus needed a man to take care of them. The whole idea of what it meant to be a 'lady' in the Nineteenth Century rooted the image of femininity in notions of weakness, inferiority, fragility, and purity by the definitions of male society. Basically, being a 'lady' meant being pretty, submissive and silent. At one point in the film Kate declares that she "wants there to be more 1876." In the Nineteenth Century women had absolutely no rights whatsoever, were the legal property of their husbands (or fathers), and were bound by extraordinarily oppressive societal limitations.

So, essentially the film is making the argument that ambitious, driven women deep down want to be the submissive, dominated property of men who treat them like helpless children and would prefer to have the type of love that implicitly conveys ownership rather than having social, legal or personal rights. After all 1876 was a time when a husband could not be legally charged with raping his wife (she was his to do with as he pleased) and a husband could legally abuse his wife viscously without punishment. The film negates everything women have managed to accomplish in the fight for equal rights, equal pay, fair treatment and the ability to express themselves openly and have an identity that is separate from what male society told them to be. The argument of the film is rather cemented when the audience comes to find out that she is really from that society all along. The film's argument is clear: women who are driven to succeed in a man's world and want to make something of themselves without relying on anyone are actually, by nature, everything that the Nineteenth Century told us women are suppose to be. They weren't oppressed; they were naturally meant to be the submissive, weak, childlike, pretty creatures who are owned by their fathers and then given as a piece of property to their husbands.

The movie's gender issues aren't simply problematic, it is truly socially irresponsible and just plain awful. It is not surprising that it was directed and writen by men based on a story by another man. It is the large audience that went to see the movie and rent the movie that has me baffled. I apologize for rambling on as long as I have, and I am not sure if anyone will ever read all of this, but I felt like getting all of that off my chest. In the end, if anyone actually sits through my tyrade, I really want to know why on earth it is that women not only watch this, but actually enjoy the film? By all means, I'll accept people who disagree with me, but it is simply something I have never understood. To me it is like large crowds of African Americans going to see a minstrel show and then praising the humor. I find a woman enjoying this film to be just as puzzling.

[–] smthngabtsusn 18 years ago

I personally enjoyed this film very much. And would love to meet more gentlemen like Leopold. So refreshing when most men are ill-mannered, crass arses who forget that they are with a woman in the first place. I think most women would like to be treated with simple courtesy and manners. And what's wrong with chivalry anyway? Nobody expects to be "owned" by anyone (unless that's your thing) but women should be treated like ladies.(And I think men should be treated as men and not be expected to "get in touch with their "feminine side" Never bought into that bollocks anyway) After all that's what separates the sexes and attracts us to each other is their masculinity and our femininity. Maybe that's why women like this movie. It is so rare in this day and age to actually find a gentleman with manners and total respect for women. That is why we do fall in love with the character of Leopold. He wasn't oppressive, but protective. (when he got her purse back and was shielding her from her sleazy boss's obvious intentions)He opened doors, stood when she rose from a table, (okay not necessary in every situation, but a nice gesture)and respected her position in the working world. He also helped her to see what how she may have been disrespecting herself by peddling "pond scum".And he apologised whole-heartedly when he was wrong. She in turn showed him that he could handle a woman with an opinion that wasn't going to kow-tow to his every whim and opened his eyes about it. They balanced each other out. In this day and age when women are expected to be more like men each day, dress like hookers, get our faces stretched to the breaking point and pumped full of Botox, starve ourselves silly, it's refreshing to see a man who will not only respect us, curves, and opinions and all, but treat us like ladies and less like their mates down the pub. And we in turn can appreciate them for the GENTLEmen that they are.
Yes, the 19th century was a very oppressing time for women. But, this is the 21st Century, unfortunately, women are being treated more like whores than ever and objects to be ogled. And even more unfortunate, many women buy into that thinking that is what men want. Perhaps the more we as women act like ladies and demand to be treated with the respect, courtesy and manners we deserve, maybe the tide will turn and men will have to behave as gentlemen to get anywhere with us as women. Not as helpless infants, but as people who balance each other out in a positive way as Kate & Leopold did.

[–] milamalo 18 years ago

have you ever read 'its a good life if you dont weaken'? its kinda like that where the character loves the early/mid 90's and his grilfriend points out why would you want to go back to a time where there were no rights for women etc.
the guys explains more or less that its some QUALITIES of that time he likes (dont quote me on any of this, its been awhile but the point is...) many ppl like the idea of living in the past the dresses, sword fights...but realistically yah , kate is going to have a hard time adjusting but shes going to enjoy the less fast-paced life (though really the industrial revo is well in motion no?) and moreover the love of her life...thats reason enough to go back.

[–] norn002 17 years ago

I agree, wholeheartedly. :)

[–] scullyone 16 years ago

"I personally enjoyed this film very much. And would love to meet more gentlemen like Leopold. So refreshing when most men are ill-mannered, crass arses who forget that they are with a woman in the first place. I think most women would like to be treated with simple courtesy and manners. And what's wrong with chivalry anyway? Nobody expects to be "owned" by anyone (unless that's your thing) but women should be treated like ladies.(And I think men should be treated as men and not be expected to "get in touch with their "feminine side" Never bought into that bollocks anyway) After all that's what separates the sexes and attracts us to each other is their masculinity and our femininity. Maybe that's why women like this movie. It is so rare in this day and age to actually find a gentleman with manners and total respect for women. That is why we do fall in love with the character of Leopold. He wasn't oppressive, but protective. (when he got her purse back and was shielding her from her sleazy boss's obvious intentions)He opened doors, stood when she rose from a table, (okay not necessary in every situation, but a nice gesture)and respected her position in the working world. He also helped her to see what how she may have been disrespecting herself by peddling "pond scum".And he apologised whole-heartedly when he was wrong. She in turn showed him that he could handle a woman with an opinion that wasn't going to kow-tow to his every whim and opened his eyes about it. They balanced each other out. In this day and age when women are expected to be more like men each day, dress like hookers, get our faces stretched to the breaking point and pumped full of Botox, starve ourselves silly, it's refreshing to see a man who will not only respect us, curves, and opinions and all, but treat us like ladies and less like their mates down the pub. And we in turn can appreciate them for the GENTLEmen that they are.
Yes, the 19th century was a very oppressing time for women. But, this is the 21st Century, unfortunately, women are being treated more like whores than ever and objects to be ogled. And even more unfortunate, many women buy into that thinking that is what men want. Perhaps the more we as women act like ladies and demand to be treated with the respect, courtesy and manners we deserve, maybe the tide will turn and men will have to behave as gentlemen to get anywhere with us as women. Not as helpless infants, but as people who balance each other out in a positive way as Kate & Leopold did."

Totally agree with it. You probably don't get why us woman like the movie, because you are a man!

[–] monicamercedesah 14 years ago

Bravo!!! I totally agree

[–] WOLVERINE25th 18 years ago

Yes, the 19th C had it's flaws, and yeah women's rights and all that other stuff ya said, but it's painfully OBVIOUS in the film Leo's a PROGRESSIVE thinker. Ya know, the type who doesn't want a submissive woman but one who would be his equal and partner. And yeah, the code of chivalry may have started out with bad intentions (like many other things) but it did evolve into where, ya know, women got treated like royalty. And it hadda start somewhere, so maybe, perhaps, it started with Leo.

All I can tell ya is, leave your feminism at the door 'cause ya don't need it here. Ya don't need to stand up for women's rights at every little tiny thing 'cause they ain't always under attack. Chalk it up to historical inaccuracy if it makes you sleep better at night.

Leo's a gentleman, ladies want one, that's why they love the movie. 'Nuff said. It's just a movie, don't read so much into it that's not there.

I'm the best there is at what I do, and that ain't pretty.

[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

I have to confess that I did not read your post, only the title of your thread. Why do women like this movie? Well, you've got Hugh Jackman, Liev Schreiber, and Breckin Meyer...do you need any other reasons?

[–] thebabe3 10 years ago

I totally agree, it is the guys of this movie that make it. Meg would have been perfect if not for the hair! OMG! it was the worst ever for any actress ever! I mean EVER!

[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

After my first post, I decided to go back and read your entire post and I understand what you're saying and agree with the majority of it. I think in the case of Kate in this particular film, she is so blinded by Leopold's gentlemanly ways that she has allowed his charm and charisma to blind her to the rest of what was going on in the period from which Leopold came. I don't think any of this occurred to Kate when she was saying things like "I wish there were more 1876." I think if Kate really had it straight in her head what times were like for women back then, she never would have said that. I guess she might also think being with Leopold might be worth the rest of it but I think she would change her mind after about 48 hours in 1876.

[–] qt_w_booty007 18 years ago

whoa chick slow down. u are realli long winded arent you?
anyways, not all women out there are like you - slap a guy whos opening the door for you and then respond to his shocked face, "i am PERFECTLY capable of opening the door for myself." just hang on.
ok, i believe that every chick out there has a sense of "let me be", too much doting on can b VERY annoying. however, we also have a sense of "thank you for pulling out my chair" in us.

[–] darkslavechaos 18 years ago

I don't want to be treated like a prize, or someone's precious gem. I don't like that and my ideal partner would be more carefree, less formal, less protective and more supportive. I want a career and I don't ever want children, or to 'settle down' per say, so I can certainly see where the original poster's coming from.

Also, not all men in the 21st century are slow acting slobs who treat women as inferior (unlike the upper classes of the 17th century), some respect and love their wives without overprotective tendancies. My dad is fine with the fact that my mum is better qualified than him and had a more successful career, he supports her and most women really just want someone who will treat them as equals as opposed to their inferior, or their superior.

[–] Tanithpanic 17 years ago

I'm a feminist- I've never wanted a husband or kids myself and I believe in equal pay for the same job - but I'd never snap at a man who held a door open for me for the simple reason that I'd never let a door close in a guy's face either. I'll let the guys at the bus stop let me go first if they offer and make a point of thanking them nicely because they were being POLITE and I happen to like nice manners. The older ones do it because they've been brought up to do it, and the young guys do it because they think I'm an old lady! Good point made in the post above, a man treating a woman as his superior is also wrong. Nobody has to be the inferior in a partnership.

[–] floopowder014 17 years ago

I totally see your point. Whenever I wish I could live in a different time period, the two things that bring me back to reality are that there'd be no rock and roll and no equal rights for women. But that's not what this film is about love.
I believe chivalty--whether now or in the 19th century or at any other time-- can exist as a genuine courtesy and not just a message that women are fragile. In the film, Leopold tells Charlie how women shouldn't be treated with 'farce' but with 'sincerity.' Leo also tells his uncle about true love and how he doesn't want to get married until he finds it. Perhaps not all men-- and likely not even the majority of men-- in the 19th century acted gentlemenly out of a true desire that women be treated with respect, courtesy, and kindness rather than out of simple practice or belief that women were weak, but Leopold does; Leopold believes in true love, and he'll be courteous to a woman when he cares for her and feels she deserves his respect. He is gentlemenly to Kate because he loves her. Just look at how he treats the woman he's dancing with when he spots Stuart at the beginning of the film-- he lets go of her, sending her flying across the floor, and doesn't apologize. A stark contrast with his gentlemenliness toward Kate.
Regarding Kate's needing to adjust to the 19th century, it would be naiive to say she wouldn't need to adjust at all, but I believe that the film showed enough to say that she would be happy in 1876 and it is the right time for her. Though prestige excites her, she hates her worklife. As evidenced when she walks past people at the ceremony where she's suppossed to be promoted, she's sick of modern attitudes of superficiality and self-absorption.
I found "Kate and Leopold"-- though it had some flaws in regards to continuity with the science of time travel-- to be a sweet, lovely, and refreshing film, and I did not see it to be misogynistic in any way.

[–] pepi_saliki 16 years ago

women liked this movie b/c we are tired of the modern men. they dont have any respect for us whatsoever and treat us like sexual objects. at least men in Leopold's time....had a sense of being gentlemen like and treating women with sincerity!

[–] stu08059 16 years ago

I really enjoyed this movie, even though I had to raise my threshold of disbelief considerably. But I have to admit, my eyebrows went up when Leopold was going on and on about toast with fresh brioche on it being brought to him in bed. Why didn't the writers have Kate point out that he could have meals prepared with reflection because he had servants and money? Somehow, I'm just not thinking that the servants enjoyed the same level of culinary art that he did.

I guess they really missed out altogether, though. I mean, the writers could have said something meaningful about how every eras has its plusses and minuses. But hey, it was fun to watch.

[–] conchord_phan 16 years ago

There's good and bad in everything. I find this movie unrealistic because I doubt that any woman, today, would adjust to the 19th century. Yes, chivalry is disrespectful - although seems respectful on the surface, with the good manner men had treated women back then. But I have to agree with other posters on the point that women aren't treated with all decency today. Women are depicted as whores and objects of desire, without the kindness. Ha! It's chivalry without the surface of good manners.

If only everyone saw the way I see things. It's pure luck that we are born male or female. If a person were ever to admire another then it wouldn't matter what sexual organ they had, the person would want to please the admired. But maybe that second theory is all because I'm a female, surrounded by men who aren't so stunning as women out there. (To clarify, I don't expect a man to dress in bikini as a woman does.. but it would be nice to see a female singer singing with half-naked men rather than women.)

I don't think we'll ever get "over the hill" of this world being a man's world. For you women out there: Your creator/Your God/Whoever you preach to may have thought you were strong enough to surpass this unrealistic life. ..or it could just be by chance we are one sex or the other, who really knows.

Treat each day as if it were the last. Please be a child sponser for World Vision.

[–] jones8557-1 13 years ago

I loved this movie! I love a movie where the man is a GENTLEMAN! This type of man is absent today. I think this is why I love all the Masterpiece Theater Classic movies.

Yes, I could adjust to having a rich husband, not having to work, and servants who will do anything to please me!

[–] Meg9502 16 years ago

Let's not overly romanticize the past, here. Sure, in the upper middle class to the extremely wealthy (i.e. royalty) women were treated with manners, chivalry, what have you. And certainly, many men of today seem to have lost that chivalry in favor of treating women as sexual objects. But it wasn't all pushing-back-your-chair- and holding-the-door-for-you in the 19th century - much of the population, i.e. those in poverty, treated women like *beep* Women were sexual objects, workers, housekeepers, and NO rights. And the illusion of the pedestal shattered unless you had money and/or nobility. At least today we've got general equality, and it isn't impossible to find well-mannered men anymore, rich or poor. It's all about mindset - a man who doesn't see a woman as an equal, a person, but as something to be *beep* will inevitably treat her like crap. It has less to do with the period, and more to do with the man.

I mean, I get what everyone's saying, but it was only part of the 19th century life, only a part of the population, with such wistfully romantic manners. The other half was just as disgusting and crude, probably worse, as men can be today. Don't generalize.

[–] Laurey_Loves_Curly 15 years ago

This may start off seeming kinda off-topic, but I promise there is a point to this. I was recently at a church camp, and one of the major discussions in the boys and girls cabins during the week is how the guys and girls can encourage and build each other up. Part of what the guys came up with was a beautiful poem which they all participated in reading for us on talent night.

Our beautiful sisters,
whom we wholly love,
who've been hand crafted
by our god above.

This is our message,
our response to you.
Agreed upon by all
in this collective few.

Our opening statement
isn't too insightful,
'cos it shines through so clear:
YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL

With smiling eyes
that silently speak
of your shining souls
both humble and meek.

The gentle spirits
that love through our abuse.
of tongues, hearts and eyes,
that we've let loose.

Your forgiving hearts,
glowing with grace.
Even when hurt
they still give chase.

We, Love, You,
our Christ bound sisters.
Sincerely we want
to be your protectors.

We, Love, You.
For what you are.
For who you are.
For why you are.

And we'll repeat it!
Though it may sound woeful:
WE LOVE YOU
and think you're BEAUTIFUL.

This poem was not written with romantic intent, but by a group of brothers wanting to express their love for their sisters in Christ.

Girls (including me) love Leopold because he can see Kate's heart, not just her exterior. Like these beautiful young men did, Leopold saw past Kate's imperfections and fell in love with her inner beauty. That part of her that took her brother in even though we can see they have obvious differences, that was willing to forgive him for being wrong, and had the humility to see when the advice he gave her was right and follow it. In my experience, even out of my girlfriends who are really not into chivalry, they want a guy who can see not only their unique phyiscal beauty, but also their inner beauty and the qualities that make them lovely women. Leopold saw this, and the only way he knew how to express his love was through chivalry, as this was the custom from his time. I think men's expressions of love today come down to the men as individuals - every man will respond differently to what his heart tells him. I still believe their should be equal respect men to women and vice versa.

Also I am a big one for chivalry, it absolutely melts me every time!

Well that's my rant for this evening!

Laurey

"Come on Jack! We could win the turkey" - Paperback Hero

[–] EventHorizon333 16 years ago

See, I liked the movie- but what annoyed me was what Kate put up with from her boss. He's the one who really annoyed me- overall harmless, but things were inappropriate.

I have no problem with chivalry to a point. I used to have fun racing one of my boyfriends to the door. Same thing with a couple of guy friends who always try to open the door for me, but it's done with well meaning fun in my heart, because if I get there first, I open the door for them... And they find it funny.

Thing is, nothing wrong with chivalry, if the guy sees the woman in all other things as an equal- the guys who do it normally just feel it a way of expressing their feelings towards the lady they like/love. That it's a sign of respect now.

But, I like a back and forth thing. The guy I'm seeing is more than welcome to pay for me, but- if I am falling in love with him, or love him, I'm going to want to treat him to things too. In relationships, somethings need to be discussed before decisions are made- from both sides, just because he might pull out my seat, doesn't mean he can just decide the law of the land.

Things like that.

But I know many women who have a problem with chivalry, who do get insulted by it. I don't. Then again, I also feel that if a woman is for equal rights, which I am for- we should accept things like us being able to be drafted as well as the men... Equal rights should mean equal responsibilities. Am I glad I can't get drafted? Absolutely. Thankfully guys haven't been drafted in this war yet either. I'm just against the draft, but that's diverting from the point of the rest of the post.

www.lost.eu/6e82c

[–] chatterley333 16 years ago

I didn't find this movie mysogynist. Certainly in times past women weren't treated as equal but it was a time when ladies were treated with respect and cherished. Perhaps it was condescending but I suspect the sexes believed they were like different species and not to be compared.....at least until they married and many men discovered that their wives were actually smarter than they were.

You asked about the appeal. I suspect it tugs at our most basic human responses that come from primitive mankind when women were nurturers and gatherers and men were hunters and protectors. I recall after the birth of my first child when I came to understand the unconditional love a mother feels for her child. Likewise my husband told me he had this overwhelming protective urge for his wife (me) and child...that he would fight any battle and lay down his life for us. I believe these to be natural, fundamental responses that has little to do with the 'safe' liberated lifestyle we enjoy today.

In saying all that (yes I am a hopeless romantic), I thought the film was crap. Tho it was pleasant looking at the leading roles, it could've been wrapped up in about 40mins. It might be that I baulk at fantastical time travel themes. It's not neccessary to involve the supernatural when a romance between two ordinary people is magic.