Rick's revenge on Ilsa - Casablanca (1943) Discussion

[–] DocCasualty 12 years ago

"Lonely situation"? Did you miss the part where Ilsa truly believed Laszlo was dead? Surely you're not suggesting that being widowed is the same as being away from your spouse for a long weekend?

BTW, while I too believe that Rick and Ilsa were sexually intimate, that is a matter of some interpretation.

"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

Yes, Ilsa believed Victor was dead when she was in Paris and had her affair with Rick, but Laszlo was right there at her side in Morocco. She may sneak off to Rick's office late at a night with the intent to get those letters of transit, but really, how surprised was she when she wound up in Rick's arms? Yes, too, the film gives a wink and a nod to what happened next between the two, but we, 21st Century fans of the film, can safely assume it was par-tay time.

Still, all that's well and good. Stuff happens. What doesn't need to happen is Rick telling Laszlo what happened. Clearly, Laszlo's a man who loves his wife and trusts her. He says he knows what it's like to be lonely, and is willing to forgive any transgressions she may have made ... in Paris. It should end there. But thanks to Rick's "confession," Laszlo now has to re-consider his wife's fidelity. Look, all Rick has to do at the airport is say, "Here are the letters of transit. Good luck." No harm, no foul. Laszlo, Rick and Ilsa all win. Laszlo can accept the fact his wife had an unfortunate, but understandable, affair in Paris. Now he's got the Casablanca indiscretion to think about, too, when Ilsa knew he was not only alive, but at one point in the room downstairs. Rick's insistence on telling Laszlo what happened at his office the previous evening can only foster doubts in a husband's mind, no matter how trusting the husband has been. And worse, Rick makes himself look like a good guy for telling of his intimacy with another man's wife right to the other man's face.

And even worse is there's nothing Laszlo can do about it. What, is he going to forfeit the letters of transit, create a scene on the tarmac while the Nazis are racing to the scene? It's better to be a live freedom fighter on his way to Lisbon than a dead jealous husband on an airstrip.

reply

[–] GoodSOVeryVeryGood 8 years ago

You completely missed the point and sorry to say got it really really wrong …

First off, Rick and Ilsa do not rekindle their sexual relationship when she visits him at the Cafe when Laszlo shows up with Carl after the meeting. What Ilsa does is confirm to Rick that she left him to go back to her husband but that she never stopped loving him, and he realizes he too loves her. Rick was bitter because he thought Ilsa had betrayed him in Paris.

At the end Rick tells Laszlo that Ilsa went to his place the night before to get the letters of transit, and that "she did her best to convince me she was still in love with me but that was over long ago, and for your sake she pretended it wasn't and I let her pretend". What he's telling Laszlo is that Ilsa is as in love with Laszlo, as Laszlo is with Ilsa (which he tells Rick the night before), and that she was willing to fake it to Rick in order to save Laszlo. As an aside, this is what the young woman does in the cafe when her husband is gambling trying to win enough money to get them out, when Rick has him win twice with 22. Rick uses the same narrative as the girl did, that when you love someone enough and want their safety, you'd be willing to pretend to anything.

When they do the singing thing in the cafe, Rick sees what a leader of the movement that Laszlo is, and when he sees how much Laszlo loves Ilsa as much as his cause, Rick realizes that he and Ilsa's "problems don't amount to a hill of beans" and that there is a much greater purpose than their feelings for each other.

But to be clear, at the end, Rick confirms to Laszlo that Ilsa loves him and that what they had in Paris was over long ago. It is to ensure that Laszlo does not foster any thoughts that Ilsa sacrificed the man she loved (Rick) for him.

Watch it again.

reply

[–] PillowRock 12 years ago

Rick's planted doubts in a husband's head about his wife's fidelity

No he didn't.

That statement (the concept of "planting") implies that Laszlo had been blissfully ignorant up until that point. He wasn't. Laszlo clearly states before he is arrested that he has known since their first visit to Rick's that the two of them were involved and uses the phrase "in love" to describe Rick and Ilsa. Laszlo even suggests that Rick and Ilsa use the letters of transit as a couple (in order to get Ilsa out of harm's way).

Rick isn't creating a new doubt. He's taking an already existing doubt (which left in the unspoken subtext of a relationship tends to fester) and brought it up to the surface where it can be dealt with openly (which increases the chance that it can heal and be overcome).

reply

[–] bhoover247 12 years ago

I never have been a big fan of the "Let's tell everything and then we will all be happy" way of thinking. I agree that Laszlo didn't want to hear about it and it won't help his future with Ilsa.

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

Laszlo WAS blissfully ignorant when he went to the underground meeting and left Ilsa in the hotel room. He didn't know she would sneak off to Rick's to get the letters of transit. He had no idea she was upstairs in Rick's office while he was downstairs getting his wound tended to. He would've remained blissfully ignorant, too, if Rick hadn't decided to spill the hill of beans all over Laszlo's feet at the airport. Indeed, Laszlo may know Rick loves Ilsa, but that's because of the affair they had in Paris when Ilsa thought Laszlo was dead. A situation Laszlo understands and forgives.

Rick and Ilsa re-kindling their romance (sexual intercourse implied) in Casablanca when they know Laszlo is alive and well is less forgivable, although we allow that it's unfinished secret business from their past. However, Rick telling Laszlo of this tryst (when Laszlo tells him he doesn't want to know) is a bit of knife twist. Even though Laszlo says he understands and walks away with his wife, Rick has set off a time-bomb in Laszlo's mind that must go off the next time he has to leave Ilsa for any extended time.

reply

[–] bhoover247 12 years ago

Yes Rick should have kept his mouth shut. Ilsa was following the thinking of the girl from Bulgaria the beautiful 17 year old actress Joy Paige who said to Rick "And he never knew, and the girl kept this bad thing locked in her heart. That would be all right, wouldn't it?"

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

Indeed. Also in the Joy Paige scene Rick says most bitterly, "Nobody ever loved me that much," when told that her husband's happiness is the only thing in the world that matters to her, which is, of course, echoed by Rick later telling Laszlo that Ilsa loved her husband so much she slept with Rick on Laszlo's behalf.

Yes, bhoover247, Rick sure has reason to want to get that dig in at the end. And don't forget, Rick tells all this to Laszlo while Rick's holding the letters of transit. If Rick wanted to "confess" even more gory details of what happened between him and Ilsa in his office the previous night, what can Laszlo do but stand there and take it? He may love Ilsa devotedly, but he wants to get out of Casablanca even more.

I have a feeling that flight to Lisbon's going to be a very silent one between Ilsa and Victor.

reply

[–] thesnowleopard 8 years ago

Yes Rick should have kept his mouth shut. Ilsa was following the thinking of the girl from Bulgaria the beautiful 17 year old actress Joy Paige who said to Rick "And he never knew, and the girl kept this bad thing locked in her heart. That would be all right, wouldn't it?"

If Rick thought it were possible to keep a bad thing locked in your heart and not let it poison your relationship, he'd have vouched for Renault and not rescued Jan at the roulette table. Renault was willing to give the Bulgarian couple exit visas if the wife slept with him or if they somehow got the money, so what Renault had proposed to her was a viable solution. Rick just thought sleeping with Renault was too high a price, much higher than such a young girl believed at that time of her life.

I don't really buy that Ilsa sleeps with Rick that night. In Paris? It's open to interpretation, but I can see it. It was Paris. It was right before WWII. And it was a very passionate affair.

In Casablanca? No. Her story to him about her marriage and ditching him in Paris is not especially post-coital, and Rick seems to have already decided to forgive and help her by the time they kiss right before the suggestive tower light segue (which could also simply be a reference to how all of the characters are living furtive lives that could be exposed and destroyed at any time). It's not in character for him to force her to whore herself out to him once he's forgiven her and she doesn't seem the least bit bitter afterward. *If* they slept together, it was out a passion that carried them away for the moment.

As for why Rick tells Lazlo, he has to make it clear to Lazlo that his suspicions (because come on--Lazlo isn't an idiot) are groundless. As Lazlo tells Ilsa, he's understanding about her believing she was a widow and very "lonely" in Paris. He's European and it's WWII. Sex is sex. But love is a whole other thing. He's still willing to sacrifice himself to let her go off with another man, but it *would* be a sacrifice.

What Rick tells Lazlo at the end does not line up at all with Ilsa's attitude from the moment she can't shoot Rick until the end. Rick is the one who is opaque until that last speech. He just lied to Louis. Will he lie to Lazlo, too? He does, but it is in a fashion that lets Ilsa off the hook. She chose Rick (albeit in a way that would also save Lazlo's life), but Rick plays it to Lazlo that she was just trying to get those transit letters. When she finds out he's sending her with Lazlo, she freaks out because as far as she knows, Rick's facing certain death if he stays.

Lazlo sees through the lie, but he accepts Rick's sacrifice (which he was himself prepared to make) and accepts Ilsa's ultimate choice to go with Rick's plan and leave with Lazlo. Why? Because Lazlo is a generous soul who doesn't let his ego get in the way of recognizing the huge sacrifice these two are making for both his safety and happiness. I'm not sure that Ilsa ever resolves which man she loves more, but the ending is probably the least cynical solution to a rather sordid situation that nobody intentionally created.

Innsmouth Free Press http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 12 years ago

I never have been a big fan of the "Let's tell everything and then we will all be happy" way of thinking.

I don't see the ending as that simplistic. Rick now cares about making things right whereas before he was only in it for himself.

"Starscream cookies are more than meets the icing!" --Nostalgia Critic

reply

[–] DocCasualty 12 years ago

Indeed. Sometimes (often?) the truth hurts. The OP has taken a negative view as to Rick's intentions in saying what he did. I don't deny the viability of that viewpoint, thought I don't agree that it is the only one, nor that it was the intent of the script. Ultimately, honesty is the best policy. Feel free to disagree.

"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 12 years ago

Well this has been discussed before, I think Rick was trying to make things alright with Ilsa and Laszlo and Laszlo realizes this. That's what he means when he responds with "Welcome back to the fight, Rick."

"Starscream cookies are more than meets the icing!" --Nostalgia Critic

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

Good point, but I think Laszlo's line welcoming Rick back to the fight is irrelevant to what's going on in the love triangle. I think Rick's confession would've had relevance to Laszlo and Ilsa if, for instance, Laszlo had returned to the hotel room and found Ilsa missing or found some sort of change in her personality. Then, Rick telling Laszlo Ilsa was with him the previous night might set Laszlo's mind at ease. But Laszlo knows nothing about anything until Rick tells him.

By the way, all praise goes to the writers and director who gave CASABLANCA'S story enough richness that we can have a thoughtful debate on this topic.

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 12 years ago

Well it's Laszlo's way of acknowledging he understands, like a knowing wink. But yeah I agree we can have these debates because the story was so nuanced. :)

"Starscream cookies are more than meets the icing!" --Nostalgia Critic

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

I think Laszlo's so happy to get his hands on those letters of transit and get out of Casablanca he would've kissed Rick's ring and shined his shoes if he was asked. But, yes, Laszlo is cordial to Rick after the confession. But to be fair, the lesson Rick's dishing out is not meant for Laszlo, but for Ilsa. Remember how he puts her on the spot when he starts confessing his tryst to Laszlo. "Isn't that right, Ilsa?" Rick asks. She can't believe Rick is introducing this subject, but once the cat's out of the bag she has no choice but to go along. I think Laszlo's last line is "Come along, Ilsa," which is when he turns his attention to her and he starts to think about what Rick has said. I mentioned earlier that the look Laszlo gives Ilsa as they walk to the plane can be construed more than one way.

My contention remains Rick's honest, heartfelt airing of the truth is not meant to get Laszlo mad at him, but to get Laszlo to think about his relationship with his wife.

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 12 years ago

I don't really read anything into Laszlo's look other than he's just trying to see that she's OK. If anything Ilsa's the one who looks unsure.

"Starscream cookies are more than meets the icing!" --Nostalgia Critic

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

That look by Laszlo can definitely be interpreted two ways. I like my way better because he just found out his wife is even less faithful than he originally thought. He's either thinking, "My wife had sex with another man to save me. How wonderful!" or "She had to do what she had to do. I'd better get it out of my mind."

Whatever his thought process, how is Laslzo going to feel the next time he has to go off on a mission and leave his wife behind?

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 12 years ago

Whatever his thought process, how is Laslzo going to feel the next time he has to go off on a mission and leave his wife behind?

Hopefully his mind will be on the mission, hehe. ;)

"Starscream cookies are more than meets the icing!" --Nostalgia Critic

reply

[–] npaxton-3 12 years ago

I do not interpret Rick telling Laszlo about that night as revenge on Ilsa but quite the contrary. He knows that the question of how Ilsa was able to get the letters of transit would eventually come up with the couple. He is telling Laszlo that yes, something did occur because your wife loved you so much she was willing to go to great lengths to make sure she got those letters and I (Rick) played along. If Laszlo had any animosity it would be directed at Rick for taking advantage of a desperate woman.

Rick also told Laszlo that he and Ilsa did not love each other, "that was over long ago", so Laszlo would think that what Rick got was merely sex and not love. He therefore protected Ilsa from ever blurting out the truth in a moment of anger or for Laszlo to ever ask her what happened that night.

Rick, who said that nobody loved him enough to do an extraordinary thing for him, ironically sacrifices his happiness by sending Ilsa to the United States where she will be safe.

reply

[–] wrfarley 12 years ago

Well, I don't think the "sex" part is entirely meaningless. "Yes, Laszlo, what Ilsa and I had was over long ago. Last night was just meaningless sex between two old friends. I'm sure you understand when I tell you your wife let me do her for your sake. By the way, so I don't seem like a total pig, here are those letters of transit."

reply

[–] tango09212 11 years ago

i don't think he sacrafices his happiness , i think that he lost himself , and when she came back he found who and what he was, yes he loved her but , but their is more to life than the love of a women , its the love of one self , there will always be other women , but finding who and what we are last forever , what a great film , bravo

reply

[–] Opwiz 9 years ago

Honesty is the best policy but Rick did lie to Laszlo in the end (about Ilsa not loving him) - unless we assume that they are both smart enough to understand he was making an excuse for them to leave without feeling bad about it.

reply

[–] wrfarley 9 years ago

Rick turned a simple solution into a difficult one by "explaining" what Ilsa was doing with him the previous night. Laszlo wouldn't have even known that his wife had left their hotel if Rick didn't spill the beans.

"You said you knew about Ilsa and me... but she came to my office last night. She tried everything in her power to get those letters of transit. For her sake, I let her pretend." Geez, if that isn't twisting the knife I don't know what is.

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 9 years ago

Laszlo wouldn't have even known that his wife had left their hotel if Rick didn't spill the beans.

Laszlo already gets it and he understands. He knows he can never be the husband Ilsa deserves when his priorities are fighting the war. That's the whole point of Rick's speech at the end - their love issues are nothing compared to saving the world.

Just watched my first episode of Dukes of Hazzard - Down with censorship!

reply

[–] npaxton-3 8 years ago

But Laszlo earlier had offered Rick a lot of money for the letters and Rick told him he wouldn't sell and to ask his wife why. Laszlo suspects that there was something between the two when he questions Elsa about Paris. When they are at the airport he must have wondered why Rick is now giving them the papers when he earlier refused. Knowing this subject would come up, Rick told the lie to Laszlo about what his wife did. Rick said he knew she was pretending to love him to get the letters and he let her pretend even though that affair was over long ago. After they were on the plane Louie even commented about Elsa going but she knew what Rick said was a lie about them no longer caring for each other. Whether Laszlo fully believes the story surmising that Rick will be in danger once they leave and he will be implicated in helping them or whether he understands that Rick is giving up Ilsa to him even though Rick still loves her when he welcomes him to the cause, we will never know. This movie becomes greater every time I watch it.

reply

[–] sokeyt 12 years ago

Victor is a cold fish, and both he and the - actually more sentimental - Rick know that the problems of three little people don't add up to a hill of beans in a world where the Nazis are exterminating millions.

Forget it Sherlock, it's Chinatown. What a day, what a day.. dum, dum...

reply

[–] AliciaHuberman59 11 years ago

Call me naive, but I don't think Rick and Ilsa had sex the night she pulled the gun on him. They reminisced, sure, but I think that's as far as the rekindling" went. I agree that Rick was very bitter ("No one ever loved me that much."), and was planning on taking her away from Lazlo, but had a change of heart after she said "You'll have to do the thinking for both of us, for all of us" and then his expression suddenly changes, as he knows he has to do the "right" thing and then says "I will". That's when he decided he was going to let her leave with Lazlo.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

Beg to disagree, but even by Hollywood's 1940's moral code, there can be almost no doubt went on between Rick and Ilsa before the fade out of her falling into his arms and the fade in of Rick standing by the window smoking a cigarette. The tension between them has been eased so much that it is almost like they are back in Paris. Also, if the missing scene was simply a conversation of reminiscence then why not show it, especially since this is a film that relies on its crafty and incisive dialogue to tell the story? No, Epstein brothers were too sharp as screenwriters to give their characters that easy an out.

reply

[–] AliciaHuberman59 11 years ago

I'm sure you're right...I'm naive...and I "project", lol.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

It's not like the scene's not open to interpretation, but I think it's the way it's meant to be. No, you're not naive. You're an idealist, like Rick.

reply

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] GotMilk00 11 years ago

I completely disagree with the premise of your post. Everything you're saying is based on the assumption that Rick and Ilsa had sex. I've seen the film many times and have never believed that was implied. You're making the mistake of imposing 21st century ethos onto 1940s culture. I don't believe it happened and think you're reading into it loaded with too much of bias created through a modern lens.

reply

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

Well, by that thinking, I guess Rick and Ilsa didn't have sex in Paris, either. From what I've read, there was such a thing as sex in the 1940's. It's only because of the Breen office that sexual scenes could be "suggested," but never shown in movies, that is, after the Hays code went into effect in 1930. The scene in question in CASABLANCA clearly implies a sexual encounter after the fade-out of Rick kissing Ilsa, intercut with a lighthouse shining a beacon, then cutting back to Rick at the window smoking a cigarette. They are far more relaxed in each other's company after we return to the scene. This same "fade out/fade in" device on an intimate couple is done often in films of the late 30's and 40's. The film, DOUBLE INDEMNTIY, uses the same technique in the seduction between Fred MacMurray and Barbara Stanwyck (also with the characters smoking after we fade back in on the same scene).

This is not an accident, either. The writers, the Epstein brothers, were smart and sophisticated, and certainly would have never shied away from such a rich complication to their plot. I get the feeling you think that the idea of Rick and Ilsa having sex in the office makes the scene "dirty" rather than romantic, which is probably why the encounter is discreetly implied, so that it could be read two ways by the viewer. But have no doubt, it's right there beneath the surface.

Here's an article on the "philosophical" angle of the office scene in CASABLANCA.

http://www.philfilms.utm.edu/1/casablanca.htm

reply

[–] turtletommy 11 years ago

Farley I've re-read this entire thread you started and I commend you for putting forth your view on this subject so persuasively- and not backing down when tut-tutted about it. In fact I have a whole new interest in and appreciation for the film after reading your take on the particular interaction(s) between Rick, Lazlo and Ilsa. It's really quite remarkable stuff going on. Interesting article too.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

Y'know, turtletommy, it comes down to the fact we really "interpret" great films rather than simply "seeing" them. I read Brando's biography a few years ago, "Songs My Mother Taught Me," and one of the things I remember most about the book is Brando writing that everybody's favorite film is the one where they identify with the lead character. He cites, for example, that his "I cudda been a contenduh" speech in ON THE WATERFRONT is usually touted as a great piece of acting. He says there was less acting involved for him in that scene than some of the scenes with Eva Marie Saint. It's what viewers project onto the speech that makes it memorable. Everybody feels they were cheated somehow in life, and yes, given another shot, they, too, could have contended for the golden ring. The viewer is doing the acting with Brando - not that he doesn't deliver the lines beautifully, but it's our personal projections that give the scene it's emotion.

In CASABLANCA, we read the ending as noble, and it definitely is. Rick gives up Ilsa when she tells him she is willing to give up her husband, Laszlo, for him. Rick has a day to think this over; and I think the audience would have accepted Rick and Ilsa getting on the plane, until it realizes that Laszlo would have been dragged off to a concentration camp (this ending was, in fact, considered by the writers). Rick instead realizes honor and duty to freedom must come first (don't forget the film takes place on the eve of the attack on Pearl Harbor), and gives up the one true love of his life.

But the Epstein brothers are such sharp writers in that they don't give the characters the simple way out. In lesser hands the scene would have been Rick sending Ilsa and Laszlo off with the letters of transit, killing Major Strasser and going off to war with Louis. All well and good, the audience goes home satisfied. So, I always want Rick to stop as he tells Laszlo more than Laszlo wants to know. He should stop talking at "but that was over long ago;" but he pursues the explanation beyond what's called for, telling Laszlo that Ilsa was with Rick the previous night trying to seduce Rick on behalf of Laszlo for the letters of transit. Of course it was just a calculated seduction on her part to save her husband's life, but for old time's sake Rick went along with it.

I've probably given more weight than necessary to the theory that Laszlo would later become angry with Ilsa over the Casablanca indiscretion. Laszlo is an even-tempered worldly man, who clearly loves his wife. But within the sentimentality of the tarmac scene, Rick's dialogue is both heroic and, for himself, therapeutic. This is why some posters have a quarrel with me. They want to see themselves in the scene, and if Rick is so cynical to tell an unsuspecting husband that he was with the man's wife the previous evening, it's very hard to sign on to that; so most viewers over-look or ignore that bit of dialogue, or argue with me for proposing it.

reply

[–] jrsloopy 11 years ago

I always got the impression that Ilsa doesn't really love Lazslo, at least not as much as she loves Rick, she's with him because she believes in his cause and wanted to fight for something bigger then them.

reply

[–] npaxton-3 11 years ago

Don't forget there was a shot of the phallic like lookout tower with its light revolving suggesting the passage of time. It reminded me of all those movies that fade to waves crashing on the shore, fireworks erupting, or a train entering a tunnel. They indeed got back Paris that night.

reply

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

when rick says "no one ever loved me that much", he realizes he's lying to himself about that - or at least begins to see a bigger view of the situation than he had before - and immediately starts acting to set things right in his world.

the more i think about it, the more this seems like the key turning point in the whole film.

reply

[–] AliciaHuberman59 11 years ago

I'm sorry to differ but I think he's at his most bitter when he says that. I think it's when he agrees to "think for both of us, for all of us" that he sets off to make things right.

Ilsa thought her husband was dead when she and Rick had their affair and she did the right thing by going back to her ailing husband when she found out he was alive, even if it meant breaking her heart and Rick's heart, and it was every bit as difficult for him to let her leave with Lazlo at the end.

reply

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

oh sure, he's at his most bitter all right. but within minutes he's saved the bulgarian girl from captain renault's clutches and helped laszlo defy the germans with la marseillaise. in a blink, he's gone from sticking his neck out for nobody to meddling in everybody's business. by the time ilsa asks him to think for both of them, his mind has long been made up.

ilsa kept her marriage secret from rick because there's a good chance he would have done something reckless instead of leaving paris for safety. she was the one who made the tough choice in paris and kept the secret to protect rick - the exact situation the bulgarians are in in casablanca. rick couldn't bear the explanation from ilsa, but when the bulgarian girl spells it out for him he sees it instantly.

yes, it was difficult for rick to send ilsa and victor off on the plane at the end, but it shouldn't be surprising.

reply

[–] sanddragon939 11 years ago

Just saw the movie for the first time yesterday!

I suppose repeated viewings will further enrich my perception, but on the surface at least I was under the impression that Rick simply told Lazlo about what Ilsa did simply because he wanted Victor to know the extent to which his wife was willing to go in order to serve him and his cause. I think he was paying Ilsa a tribute by letting Lazlo know the true extent of his wife's loyalty and dedication. The incident with the Bulgarian girl, where her husband could never know the lengths to which she was willing to go to help him, touched Rick to the extent that he wanted Ilsa's loyalty to Victor to be known to her husband.

reply

[–] AliciaHuberman59 11 years ago

I think the fact that that was your first viewing gave the clearest reading of all. Thank you!

reply

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

i think that's quite possible. whatever his reason, rick is trying to tell victor of ilsa's loyalty, not disloyalty.

and further viewings of casablanca are always enriching. :)

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

I don't know about this "All for one, one for all" conclusion. Rick only starts thinking clearly again after he has sex with his old paramour. Up until then he's a spurned, bitter ex-patriot who "sticks his neck out for no one."

We're supposed to assume that once the sex is out of the way, Rick can think rationally and come to the rescue of Ilsa, Laszlo and himself.

There are two ways to look at this: a. after his tryst with Ilsa in his office, Rick forgives and forgets his hurt and sends Ilsa to Lisbon with her husband so he can continue his work with the security that his wife is nearby and supportive.

b. after the tryst, Rick realizes he is still in love with Ilsa, and can only have her by handing Laszlo over to the Nazis. Even Rick's not that cynical; so he chooses to send Ilsa off with her husband. Still, on the way out the door, Rick can't resist "getting a little of his own," and decides to tell the unknowing husband of the tryst he had with Laszlo's wife the previous evening. Saying it may make a difference later on.

There was never any reason for Rick to tell Laszlo what went on his office the previous night; no reason at all. Laszlo said he didn't need to know, but Rick told him anyway. That, my friends, is cynicism, writ large.

reply

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

except... even before his tryst with ilsa he's already rescued the bulgarian girl from renault and helped victor tweak the nazis (causing his place to be shut down as a result). hardly the actions of "a spurned, bitter ex-patriot who 'sticks his neck out for no one'", eh?

laszlo's a worldly european who's willing, and expecting, sacrifices to be made. when he says that no explanations are necessary, it's because he already knows the situation. there's already no doubt, what's happened has been accepted and victor's moved on. so rick's explanation was primarily for ilsa's benefit. while it's plausible and laszlo accepts it, it gives ilsa no alternative but to get on the plane. the perceptive captain renault points out the she knew he was lying, he knows who the message was directed at, and it wasn't victor.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

As a worldly Europen, I'm sure Laszlo accepted Rick and Ilsa's affair as a matter of life's course. But Rick telling Laszlo about the previous evening with Ilsa is a detail I'm sure Laszlo could have lived his entire life without knowing. Says Rick, "You said you knew about me and Ilsa, but what you didn't know was that she was with me last night..." Uh-oh.

And it gets worse: "She tried everything in her power to get those letters of transit" is a line encrypted with sexual innuendo that no man should say to another about the other man's wife.

Then Rick finishes by telling Laszlo, "She tried to convince me we still had Paris... for her sake I let her pretend." Oh, boy, I don't care how worldly Laszlo is, that statement's gotta sting, not to mention opening up a whole new can of worms for the Laszlo household after the war.

reply

[–] paveltkachev90 11 years ago

I agree with wrfarley , but it would be desirable to correct this point of view a little, like what i think))). It seems to me that Ilsa wasn't absolutely sure that loves Rick more then Victor, when she asked him to make decision for all of them, don't forget that she show the same love feelings to her husband, few minutes ago (that time she was honest too), Rick seems rather acute that to understand it therefore he thought up the cunning plan))). Yes in Rick still there lives the fighter for just cause, but let's assume that he wants to be overcome for the girl who got confused and can't solve whom loves more. Now she says that it is Rick, tomorrow it could be Victor again & she leave Rick again. Certainly Rick could realize that plan which he offered the policeman, but after that Ilsa's such act hardly again would fall in love with him (she is the girl of the high moral principles, btw she is not ready to kill for them, Rick for example))). And now we will present that Rick made conversation with her husband not in order that she suffered as himself, but for that in years three or four to appear again in her life. During this time a lot of things will change (France will be freed from nazi, her husband probably become a politician etc.) however anyway in her family life start problems (absolutely optional will begin that because of Rick's "words" to her husband), it is possible because her husband that kind of men who would lead other, and such can't lives for one person, he lives for all (I hope I wrote clear enough). She must want to come back those feelings, she felt in Paris and in Casablanca too and she will fell to Rick's embraces only now completely having love feelings only to Rick.
I think the episode with the Bulgarian girl contributed to this, one way or another.

===Happy end.===

P.S. Thanks of Epstein brothers for the movie. Awesome. I'm glad that i saw it. It would one of my favorite.

P.P.S. Pardon my English, I know it is not good ) Thanks

reply

[–] VonFisch 10 years ago

(Almost two years later) but I think you brought a different perspective. If I read you right, Rick said what he did in planning for the future. He left it open that hopefully, Ilsa and he will come together in the future.

reply

[–] wrfarley 9 years ago

Possibly, but since he's going off to war, Rick is possibly sacrificing his life for the greater good. While I thought I was the only one who took a different slant on the ending of the film, as I posted above, there's an article actually dedicated to this contrary viewpoint.

reply

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

mmmhmmm...you realize that the degree of vindictiveness you're attributing to rick is totally out of character, don't you? moments before rick springs his supposed nasty revenge on victor and ilsa, he's expecting to be carted off to the local concentration camp - willingly - so they can escape together.

i think your idiosyncratic reading of the situation, while interesting, reveals more about yourself than the characters in casablanca.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

No, this has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with Rick's dialogue at the airport. Again, Rick's job is to give the letters of transport to Victor and Ilsa, wish them luck and send them on their way. No harm, no foul. Rick's taking an extra couple of minutes to explain to Laszlo the situation between Rick and Ilsa, which Laszlo says he's not interested in hearing, is an unnecessary grace note.

Now that I think about it, maybe it is more about me. If my wife met a paramour she hadn't seen in years and managed to straighten out their age-old differences after a sexual tryst, and then told me about it. No, I can't say I'd be a happy camper.

reply

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 11 years ago

If my wife met a paramour she hadn't seen in years and managed to straighten out their age-old differences after a sexual tryst, and then told me about it. No, I can't say I'd be a happy camper.

Well you're not a freedom fighter with other things on this mind. At least I assume you're not? Lol ;)

"Starscream cookies are more than meets the icing!" --Nostalgia Critic

reply

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

True, but freedom fighting is not generally a 20 year career. Victor's going to have to face Ilsa and deal with their relationship at some point after the war.

reply

[–] joechar4444 11 years ago

That's why he did what he did.

reply

[–] mxzt 11 years ago

I think Laszlo knew all along that his wife may have had an affair when he was in the concentration camp and thought was dead.

Laszlo seems like a strong character man, seems very secure of himself. I highly doubt that affair effects him at all negatively. He completely understands why she done it and now meeting the guy she fell in love with and finding out he's such a stand up guy like himself. And now seeing Rick went out of the way to help them out.

I'm sure Laslo happy Ilsa was being taken care from Rick during the the long period of time Laslo & Ilsa weren't together.

And remember the scene where Victor ask his wife if she was lonely in Paris? And he says "I know how it is to be lonely". He didn't have to know an answer, he knew she would of been lonely and probably fall in love with someone else. It was simply a rhetorical question.

By the end of it all, I think both Victor and Rick have deep respect for each other and both have such strong love for Ilsa.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

Many posters seem to be missing the point. It's not that Rick had an affair with Ilsa in Paris (which Laszlo obviously knows). It's that Rick and Ilsa re-kindled their romance the previous night in his office in Casablanca, and then told Laszlo what happened.

reply

[–] phantom2-2 11 years ago

except rick tells laszlo that the rekindling didn't take hold, and that whatever there was between rick & ilsa before is now gone.

renault is shrewd enough to pick up that rick is lying - or at least that ilsa thinks otherwise.

whether laszlo also believes rick's story (he's looking at rick for the most part, not ilsa, so might not pick up on her cues), or is merely satisfied with how it's all worked out in his favor in the end, it's impossible to tell.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

That's true, but Rick didn't need to tell ANY story to Laszlo. What Laszlo had only speculated about the affair is spelled out by Rick ("You said you knew about Ilsa and me, but what you didn't know was that she was with me last night...") Really? How is Laszlo helped by this intel?

reply

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sstarl1324 11 years ago

Hmm, married several times and each one cheated on you huh? I have seen this flick a dozen times and never once thought anything of the sort. But then again I am not an insecure person and so don't see things like one would.

Remember Rabbit Ears with tin foil?

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

Lighten up, kiddo. It's a movie.

reply

[–] wrfarley 11 years ago

New thought. What was a forgivable relationship between Rick and Ilsa in Paris (because Ilsa thought her husband was dead) becomes unadulterated adultery in their Casablanca encounter. Rick and Ilsa now have a living, breathing Laszlo to think about while they are in Rick's office "catching up."

In the article I posted earlier, is the suggestion that Laszlo allowed Ilsa to see Rick, knowing it might lead to a re-kindling of their romance, because getting the letters of transit was more important to him than his wife's fidelity.

reply

[–] nutsberryfarm 10 years ago

that's sly.

Veneration of Mark Twain is one of the roots of our current intellectual stalemate

reply

[–] wrfarley 10 years ago

The Epstein brothers slipped a lot of irony into this sentimental screenplay.

reply

[–] oscarunger 10 years ago

"She did everything in her power to make me think we still had Paris. For her sake, I let her pretend).

I know Rick/Ilsa had sex, I just didn't know this line was giving that info away, I thought it was more "she came to my room and was begging me..." etc...

reply

[–] elena-28 10 years ago

I like this thread very much, and it made me think, which is always a good thing (I think...). Ultimately, I though, I disagree with the idea that this was revenge on Rick's part, and I offer this little moment as evidence:

Ilsa says, very sotto voce, to Rick: "God bless you", toward, or at the very end, of this last encounter. Ingrid Bergman gives Ilsa a wonderfully-transparent expression from the time of her breakdown in Rick's room till the end of the film. Her expression and her tone don't reflect, for me, someone who has just received an emotional body-blow.

Victor never struck me as cold - to me he is extremely dedicated to a very important cause, personal as well as political. He has lived through a great deal, suffered a great deal, taken on a lot of suffering. To me, his bearing is controlled and restrained because he must keep control or break down - but you can see how he channels passion in his speech at the police station and also, of course, in the song contest.

Renault not only knows that Rick is lying but he says that Victor knows it too. It's a key moment to me, and a lovely one, when, as the propellers start, the camera catches: Rick looking at Ilsa; Ilsa looking at Rick; then both of them focusing on Victor (it's a wonderful triangle, with love and respect flowing very tightly between the three of them. Victor, as much as Ilsa, is a "love focus" for both Rick and Ilsa).

And then Victor asks, gently: "Are you ready, Ilsa?" He's leaving the ultimate decision in her hands. *This*, to me, is the test, if there is one, of where her loyalties will ultimately go. And if she chooses Rick, Victor will let her go. And if she chooses Victor, he will know that she is there with him to stay.

There will be no other love affairs because Ilsa loves a particular type of man, a man like Victor or like Rick. These men are very few and far between. In the universe of _Casablanca_, there are only two, both within Casablanca and out. For me, the events of Casablanca have matured Ilsa and bonded her more closely to Victor - and to Rick. It is a "different" Ilsa who leaves with Victor, but, for me, a more grown-up one, who comprehends more fully her importance to Victor.

Very rushed on my lunch hour and apologies for any lack of clarity in this hurried post.

reply

[–] fguerra1 8 years ago

elena thanks for your explanation. it was very clear.

reply

[–] wrfarley 10 years ago

Yes, that line is the crux of the problem. Another way for Rick to say it would be, "She was trying to seduce me on your behalf, Laszlo, and even though I knew it was a calculated seduction I went along with it so as not to hurt her feelings."

reply

[–] pepperdog61 10 years ago

To me, Laszlo's doubts are going to be even worse if Rick says nothing. Let's credit Laszlo with enough intelligence to realize how strange it is that Rick would do a sudden about-face on doing business re: the letters of transit. And Laszlo knows Rick's initial adamance in not doing business is directly tied to Ilsa ("I suggest you ask your wife").

Laszlo's GOT to suspect something went down between Rick and Ilsa for Rick to suddenly drop his unyielding stance on the letters, and silence is great growing weather for doubt and suspicion. At some point Laszlo's going to want some sort of closure and by then it's going to fall to Ilsa to provide it, something she's made clear to Rick she doesn't feel emotionally equipped to do ("You'll have to do the thinking for both of us, for all of us").

Rick, at least, provides a plausible-sounding narrative (I'm pretty sure Laszlo is smart enough not to buy a "we just reminisced like old friends" tale or something similarly innocuous), which gives Laszlo something to wrap his head around while relieving Ilsa of having to explain herself.

reply

[–] GiaJake 10 years ago

Wrfarley - I enjoyed your post, but disagree. After watching Casablanca for maybe the 100th time, it finally dawned on me why Rick told Lazlo so much at the end. Imo the reason Rick felt compelled to do so was because of Louis. When Louis said something like, Oh you're surprised at my friend Ricky. It seems love has triumphed over virtue, Rick knew he had to set Lazlo's mind at ease if he began to reflect on Louis' comment after the war. Why would Louis know Rick was in love with Ilsa, unless Rick told him that? This way it looks as if Rick were pretending all the way around, with Ilsa, Louis, his employees and whoever else. Down the road Lazlo could also pretend that Rick was playing a part too. Btw, Rick saying I let her pretend, signified to me attempted seduction for the letters, not sex. Jmho.

reply

[–] priscilla-hopkins 10 years ago

I was always shocked that Rick told Louis that Ilsa was Lazlo's wife. He could have let that slip to the Nazis. Ilsa made it clear that not even their closest friends knew. I think everyone knew Rick might just be playing a part.

reply

[–] mikekrit62 8 years ago

Like many others, I don't agree with your premise because it relies on ignoring too many important plot points in the story.

Rick then spills to Laszlo he not only had an affair with his wife in Paris, but they conjugated just the previous evening in Rick's office ... while Laszlo was downstairs!

I don't agree that they "conjugated" anything that night, unless you believe that it's likely a man would have sex with a woman late at night, and then get fully re-dressed into a tuxedo and bow tie to carry on post-coital reminiscing afterward.

reply

[–] bhoover247 8 years ago

An excellent point. I could see David Niven getting redressed into tuxedo and bow tie after late night sex but not Rick.

reply