AN INSULT TO WALES! - How Green Was My Valley (1942) Discussion

[–] Dances_with_Weasels 19 years ago

You have a valid point. However, I think it is probably because an Irish accent is easier to imitate.

Are you going to pull those pistols or whistle "Dixie"?

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Jimwhitley6 19 years ago

The reason they filmed it in California instead of Wales was because in 1941 the Atlantic was crawling with U-BOATS. There was a major war on, and any American transport going to Britain was subject to attack. And don't feel so bad about the accents, I'm from the South and my own countrymen can't do a proper accent :).

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[–] bingbongboyo 18 years ago

Actually, it was because the South Wales valleys were being bombed night and day by the luftwaffe. It is a romantic vision of Wales by the Americans, yes, it is ridiculous with the accents etc etc, but we should be proud that a film about Wales, that puts Wales on the map around the World, is so revered and is still regarded as a classic. just look at other classics of the time, Gone With The Wind, Grapes Of Wrath etc, accents are not important, it's the story that's important, and for that reason it is still a very good film about a small Welsh mining village. By the way, i'm very Welsh! Maybe a re-make is in order? 3 hour epic shot in Wales and with Welsh actors? With enough money surely it would be a lot better? 12 oscars here we go!!!!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] dononiall 18 years ago

No idea! But a quick 'shot from the hip' I would say Anthony Hopkins and Richard Burton ....?

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] drella666 18 years ago

Whenever any non-Welsh person attempts a Welsh accent, it comes out sounding Pakistani...

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] SDockorockerty 17 years ago

"Whenever any non-Welsh person attempts a Welsh accent, it comes out sounding Pakistani..."
ITS SO TRUE! That happens with most of my accents tho.

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[–] anghmho 13 years ago

You would have some difficulty casting Richard Burton, as he has been dead for quite some time. Anthony Hopkins? Well, yes, but he's a little long in the tooth now.

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[–] partnerfrance 18 years ago

Err....The Laurence Olivier version of Henry V?

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[–] partnerfrance 18 years ago

Oops : it didn't actually win that year (Best Years of Our Lives did).

[Scratches head] : I hope this isn't a joke and you aren't referring to "Tom Jones"!

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[–] cherylclair 17 years ago

I really pray that no one ever tries to remake this film. It's bound to be a dismal failure. This is a classic and you just can't remake a classic. Look what they did to Cyrano deBergerac (I know it isn't spelled right)and Cheaper By The Dozen. To say nothing of Father of the Bride. Cyrano was a true classic, filmed the way it was written. A beautiful love story, beautifully told. Hollywood turned it into Roxanne, with Steve Martin and Darryl Hannah. I have nothing against those two actors, but it sure was a long way from the story written by Edmond Rostan. Come to think of it, Steve Martin was also in the remakes of Cheaper By The Dozen and Father of the Bride. He's a funny guy, but not in a league with Jose' Ferrar, Clifton Webb & Spencer Tracy.

Oh Jerry,don't lets ask for the moon,we have the stars.

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[–] canuckteach 17 years ago

I agree that the film is long-overdue for a re-make. For one, as beautiful as the 1941 John Ford production was, I just didn't 'get' the romantic overtones - I think these could, in modern times, be dealt with frankly, but tastefully. Sadly, a typical Hollywood production with big name stars often falls short in taste, and the 'accent' departments. At least, filming on location wouldn't be a problem!

I think it would have to be a UK Production--there are plenty of fine actors still available: Helen Mirren, Ralph Fiennes, Anthony Hopkins, Kate Winslow, Hugh Lawrie (hey: I'm not financing it - I can nominate anyone I want - lol). Another great thread would be: who to cast in the re-make? Since most film watchers under age 50 don't know the original, it's up to 'us'. However, I think the Brits are more likely to turn out 6-part mini-series in a PBS/Masterpiece Theater type of production, rather than a general-release film -- something like 'Pride and Prejudice'. DVD sales to us older 'classic film' buffs would yield a profitable windfall.

I think the original post by geo-uk was a bit of a 'flame' - but that's ok - we're gifted amateurs here at IMDB and we can handle it..! I can sympathize a bit with the 'accent' objection, but film producers often use 'devices' or 'agreements' in cinematography. Why do the Germans in 'Great Escape' speak English with a 'German' accent? How come the Indians in Westerns speak English? How come no one ever has to go to the bathroom (lol - even on 'Survivor'!)? The audience has to play along with that a bit. Technical advisers or 'accent' coaches can only do so much, but some directors are less indifferent than others.

Finally, I think the beauty of the Ford film is that the events depicted - change from a sweet pastoral lifestyle, to a cold industrial one - was only a few decades past. Compare that to now - *sigh* - how green was our valley then?

:-) canuckteach (--:

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[–] bhogle-2 17 years ago

I am not in favor of a remake except for the possibility of Masterpiece Theater. If they made a movie, they would have Angharad and Mr. Gruffud falling into bed with each other and the Morgan father and sons cussing each other out. It would also have graphic gory scenes in the mine accidents. Not that those things didn't happen, but I have enough imagination without seeing all the details. Leave the 1941 version the classic it is (for crying out loud, it won 5 Oscars) it would be a travesty to try and remake it.

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[–] cagordon22 15 years ago

OH, JImwhitley6, have you got THAT right! first of all, how many different "Southern" accents are there? And I can pick out a Yankee playing a Southerner quicker'n a duck ona June bug.

But if you can't get a real Southerner to do the accent, hire a Brit. Cause guess what? Most Southern US accents are just BRitish/English/Scots/Irish/Welsh accents s l o w e d down cause of the heat!

Don't get me started on Kyra SEdgwick's accent on "the closer"! Love the show, love her, but that accent.....seriously, y'all?

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[–] flavia18 15 years ago

More like it's because it's the same with every other culture an outsider tries to imitate: it's never going to work well enough to please the culture being imitated.

But the OP is wrong: it's not an "insult" to wales - it was as good an attempt as could be done at the time - especially because it was wartime, and they couldn't film in Wales.

Those who study history are doomed to watch others repeat it.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] DukeToshiro 18 years ago

Well John Ford was Irish and so were many of the actors/actresses who were in the film. I'm not from Wales, but Anna Lee seemed to at least attempt a Welsh accent. Was she totally off as well? Just curious, as I don't have much experience with hearing Welsh accents.

Welsh music is great, though.

I'm a cotton-headed ninny-muggins.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] g_dekok 18 years ago

Well, let's start with the "Irish accents". Seeing as John Ford (who, btw, directed the movie!) was originally from Ireland, and he patterned Sara Allgood's character after his IRISH mother, there's that.

Now, this movie was made in 1941, and during WWII, seeing as the war was raging, it would have been pretty darned difficult to build the set, and film over in WALES. There is a good documentary on the DVD, that is a "making of HGWMV", and it does explain quite a bit. Granted, I'm not too fond of the interview with Anna Lee (WAY too much makeup on her), but 98% of it was quite interesting.

If one doesn't like the movie, then one doesn't have to watch it, does one?? I happen to enjoy it very much, and thought it was very well done. Also, just for the record Rhys Williams (Dai Bando) was indeed Welch, and he helped with the accents for those who were not Welch. Why don't you go ahead and do a remake?

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[–] ericskeen 18 years ago

Would anyone know if the BBC colour remake of this is available anywhere? I saw it on TV about 20 years ago and would love to get that copy on DVD as well.

-Eric

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] xzcgb 16 years ago

g_dekok does not do justice to the point raised. By taking short cuts with the accents because his -John Ford's - mother was Irish does not address the question at all, that is merely a researched observation on g_dekok's part. Considering the film's budget,Ford's professionalism AND the obvious care taken in portaying accurately other aspects of the welsh valleys (e.g. the music, the mine, the streets, the chapel and general location) it is right for film fans like myself, from Wales, to wonder why the heck didn't they make a bit more effort with the accents.
If you lived in Welsh valleys in Victorian times it was a fact that irish immigrants were seen as different by the local Welsh natives,and there was infact an 'immigration issue'(stealing our jobs etc) as there are today with other peoples...that is one reason why lack of accuracy is in this case is relevant.
I can say that and also say at the same time that I like the film a lot...it made me cry. And I think this is, at the end of the day, down to Ford's direction, plus the script is full of little touches that highlight the emotions of these poor but proud people.e.g. the game of communication between the mother and young Huw using their walking sticks, whilst both are bedridden, banging on the floor/ceiling of their respective rooms. The simple happiness of this family is conveyed elegantly.
But, i think, more than anything, it's the protrayal of the father that Donald Crisp gets just right, and his accent is pretty good, and the love that's conveyed by him towards his family ESPECIALLY young Huw. Roddy Mcdowell, while not having a great accent, is such an amzing film presence, visually and emotionally.
The final scene, down the mine, is absolutely brilliant...and heartbreaking. I think all these great things overall do make it a great film, and just about outride the annoying use of irish accents.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] richard.fuller1 18 years ago

I'm watching How Green Was My Valley for the first time right now. I'm American, my mother is English, but she was born in Pontypridd (they moved before she was a month old).

I've watched enough of the old Irish movies and have seen a very few Welsh related movies, such as The Christmas STallion (might be found under a different title, but it was filmed in Wales), with Daniel J. Travanti, as well as a comedy called, Run For Your Money, among a few others, to realize right off the bat that this dear film isnt terribly accurate with its dialects.

I mean, Sara Allgood, whom I've seen in another movie and thought she was awful, and Barry Fitzgerald?

Roddy McDowell hasnt said two words, it seems, probably because he would come out as English and nothing else.

Now if the director was Irish and wanted to base the mother on his own mother, that's well and good, but don't do a movie about Italy or Spain and make the mother Irish, for crying out loud.

The movie isn't having a rich Welsh feel to it either.

I've watched a movie called "Checkerboard" that was filmed in Italy and is supposed to be about American racism. Low budget, it was filmed in Europe and is so inaccurate with its depictions, I find it hilarious and worth watching for that reason alone.

But this is Best Picture "How Green Was My Valley".

I would be expecting a bit more than this. Ah, I'm only an hour into this film. I'll make my mind up at the end.

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[–] bradford-1 18 years ago

If you want "authentic" Welsh accents, go watch THE LAST DAYS OF DOLWYN! Maybe Rhys Williams, who was hired to help with the accents, did the best he could. According to the trivia notes, the picture was shot in 2 months, so I guess he didn't have a great deal of time for individual instruction...

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] overseer-3 18 years ago

I agree. It's the spirit of a picture that matters, and How Green Was My Valley delivers that spirit in spades.

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[–] shagya49 18 years ago

It was not brilliant but had some good points. Perhaps in comparison to what is being made today it's understandable that people would see many old films as being better. What annoys me about 'Valley' is the boy Huw who goes down into the pits when he has the ability to get away from this place. As an educated man he would have been in a better position to "strike a blow" then by "romantically" suffering. I was in Wales in 1967 and saw the slag heaps which, two years before, had rolled down over a primary school and killed everyone inside.

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[–] dimpledonut 18 years ago

Yes, I agree this film is good, the story is decent enough and the script is interesting. HOWEVER, the representation of Wales and the Welsh aren't the best. One thing that annoys me more than anything are the shocking accents. I live in the Welsh Valleys, where this film was meant to be set, and I fail to recognise a single convincing portrayal of my accent throughout the entire film. This really spoiled it for me.

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[–] billyed 17 years ago

Perhaps there weren't that many really good Welch actors available in 1941 to do this film like John Ford wanted it done. The majority of the cast, with the exception of a few, were Irish.
This was war time and I don't suppose he could have sent to Wales for people who spoke Welch, so he depended on the Irish to do the job.

I, for one, thought it was a very moving, poignant film, about a family, dominated by the patriarch, with an even stronger mother. Then tragedy strikes and their life is never the same again.

Sorry the Welch people on this board took offense at the accents..I think that's the best they could do at the time.

"Oh my God! Where did that orchestra come from??"..

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[–] eddie07 17 years ago

Welsh, not Welch; Or 'Cymraeg' if you want to spell it in 'Welsh'.

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[–] cgiovannone 17 years ago

People from Wales are Welsh not welch. Welch means to evade an obligation.

If you want to hear what genuine Welsh accents sound like, then watch Twin Town or Very Annie Mary(Annie Mary herself is a bit dodgy though, as she is played by Rachel Griffiths)

It's a bloody euphonium!

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[–] cherylclair 17 years ago

I agree. The real problem I have is with a commenter who said the the "head deacon" was played ludicrisly by Barry Fitzgerald. Idiot. It was most certainly not Fitzgerald. It was Arthur Shields, who does bear a resemblence to Fitzgerald. He was also in The Quiet Man, playing the Anglican Vicar.

Oh Jerry,don't lets ask for the moon,we have the stars.

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[–] billyed 17 years ago

I agree. The real problem I have is with a commenter who said the the "head deacon" was played ludicrisly by Barry Fitzgerald. Idiot. It was most certainly not Fitzgerald. It was Arthur Shields, who does bear a resemblence to Fitzgerald. He was also in The Quiet Man, playing the Anglican Vicar.

Fitzgerald and Shields were real-life brothers. Fitzgerald's real name was William Joseph Shields. They were both in "How Green...","The Quiet Man" and "Plough and the Stars"..

"Oh my God! Where did that orchestra come from??"..

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[–] Bagpiper1989 17 years ago

I agree! Thank you, Mhearn.

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[–] bhogle-2 17 years ago

Many of the old classics are not appreciated by anyone under 50 and certainly no one under 40 because they have not watched many of them. I can remember when I was a child, before cable TV, there was The Late Show and the Late Late Show on Sat. Night. They would rebroadcast the same movies on Sunday afternoon and I would watch them. I started out watching these movies as a child and find that watching them takes me back. I have an 18 year old daughter who can't stand to watch them because they are black and white (for the most part). I was raised on The Three Stooges (and still love them) and we didn't have our first color TV until I was 12 (1965). LONG LIVE TURNER CLASSIC MOVIES!!

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[–] richard.fuller1 17 years ago

bhogle-2: "Many of the old classics are not appreciated by anyone under 50 and certainly no one under 40 because they have not watched many of them. I can remember when I was a child, before cable TV, there was The Late Show and the Late Late Show on Sat. Night. They would rebroadcast the same movies on Sunday afternoon and I would watch them. I started out watching these movies as a child and find that watching them takes me back. I have an 18 year old daughter who can't stand to watch them because they are black and white (for the most part). I was raised on The Three Stooges (and still love them) and we didn't have our first color TV until I was 12 (1965). LONG LIVE TURNER CLASSIC MOVIES!!"
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My nephew would say the same thing about the awful remake of Psycho. It was better than the original because it was in color.

sigh.

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing tho. I'm sure had I seen this movie and who knows what else as a late movie, I would have extremely fond movies of it.

As it is, I seemed to watch more sitcoms, Saturday morning cartoons and made-for-TV movies, so that is where all my fond memories lie.

I wonder if a movie such as this ever did air as a late movie and me dear mum wanted to watch it, but she figured no one else would be interested, so she didn't bother to try and stay up.

She wasn't much into movies, so she may not have bothered, but she always had a fascination with To Sir With Love, and when she learned Patricia Routledge of Keeping Up Appearances was in it, I decided to send off for it and let her see it again in well over 30 years.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] richard.fuller1 15 years ago

bingedrinkingisamazing attempts: ""British".

The Welsh are British. You mean English.
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What I successfully said was fortunately not shrouded in obscurity, unlike your response.

I do believe anyone who is Scottish or Welsh refers to themselves as such, and not as being British. I think only the English refer to themselves as such, so hence my statement.

Elaboration would be welcomed next time. Otherwise don't bother with a response.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] richard.fuller1 13 years ago

bingedrinkingisamazing: Some do, some don't. Either way, you're wrong.

*****************************************************************

THANKS, FRIEND!!!

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[–] peterbullard 18 years ago

Another (partial) explanation could be that all accents have changed in the last 65 years - just listen to American accents in other moves from the same period, no-one speaks like that anymore.
Also, why does such a small thing make you so angry? Seems like an over reaction to me. Americans have to put up with feeble efforts from the likes of dear old Bob Hoskins to sound American and they don't seem to get upset. Of course, they are confident of their identity and place in the world. The Welsh seem a bit overly sensitive. I wonder why.....?

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[–] zygoticmynci 17 years ago

I caught some of it on TV earlier and I kept asking myself why most of the cast sounded either Irish or Scottish. No wonder why so many Americans are confused about our existence!

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[–] reasonformirrors 17 years ago

When I came across this thread I thought that the OP was trying to say that Citizen Kane should've won best picture and he/she just spelled Orson Welles' name wrong.

#59

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[–] apathymotivated 17 years ago

In response to everyone bashing the film for not using authentic welsch accents, let me explain. John Ford came onto this film already after the book had been published and an adapted script had been written. Ford agreed to shoot the film for $1 million and in B&W, instead of the 4-hour color film that was originally intended. The film was going to be shot in Wales, but WWII made it impossible. The film was shot in Malibu, California. It was shot in black & white because it would be cheaper and was the only way they could make the location look like Wales. The REASON the film has what many of you think of as 'terrible welsch accents' was because they were not attempts at welsch accents at all.
John Ford was Irish himself and impressed some personal experiences on the story, making it almost semi-autobiographical. Ford made the characters and rituals more Irish because he jokingly said the only thing different between the Welsch and Irish were that one was protestant and one was catholic. He told his actors to use Irish accents and the songs and dances they did were Irish as well.
Keep in mind that at the time the pro-union subject matter and impact of WWII was a much more important and controversial matter to the filmmakers then the authenticity of accents.
One of Ford's personal touches added to the film was the books Huw read when in bed. Ford caught dyptheria as a boy and was bedridden. The books he read during that time were the same he had Roddie McDowell's character read while recovering.
I'm American, not Welsch or Irish, so obviously i don't take offense to any of this, i just think it was an artistic decision made by Ford and i support it.

"...And I'm all out of bubblegum!"

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[–] quildarener 17 years ago

The singing at least was Welsh.

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[–] oresttheoiboy 17 years ago

Wales ain't so bad, at least it is better than Swindon.

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[–] barryrobin 17 years ago

"...Wales ain't so bad, at least it is better than Swindon."

Now that's funny!; Thanks for making me laugh so much.

To those not familiar with why this is screamingly-and ruefully- funny, you'll understand by noting that in the dictionary under the phrase "armpit of the universe" it says See Swindon.

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[–] naz_griff 17 years ago

I actually don't think that this film is an insult to wales at all. Although the accents were a bit off, I saw a clip of some mining thing in the Rhondda and the sounded totally different to now. Coming from a cole mining family as usual, I thought they did a very good job at capturing what mining meant. It would be really good though if someone could do like a sequel or something showing what Wales is today - and with Welsh actors too!

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] check_your_face 17 years ago

I agree the accents heard in this film are not really Welsh,
but mixture of Irish or English (I felt they were from like London or somewhere)
I read that John Ford wanted to set this beautiful story in
Ireland, his homeland. But his wish never came true.
That's why you see a lot of his nostalgic longing for
good old Ireland in this film.
See the book 1001 films You Must See before You Die

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[–] MovieGeek1971 17 years ago

This movie IS an insult to Whales. I watched the whole thing and I didn't see a single one! What the hell is up with that?

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[–] check_your_face 17 years ago

It's not about Whales or Moby-Dick. Or are you just kidding?

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[–] eviljanet 17 years ago

This movie IS an insult to Whales. I watched the whole thing and I didn't see a single one! What the hell is up with that?

lmao, too funny!

~*~**~*~
Drinking and smoking go together like porn and nachos.
AIM: eviljanet

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] angharad83 17 years ago

who do you mean exactly?

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[–] nicklove 17 years ago

I live in an ex mining villiage in the heart of a welsh valley in s.wales, there hasnt been any irish immigrants who worked the mines as far as im aware, and during that time i doubt anyone would have spoken english let alone have an irish accent.
I did feel a little let down by this film being filmed nowhere near wales nor acted by any welsh actors, but atleast this film realised that wales does exist (the film even had a mention in an frasier episode)

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[–] 17 years ago

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