Distressing soul merge


This film is fine until Mr. Jordan decides to leave Joe in Murdoch's body and erase his memory of being Joe. It is decidedly unangelic to "kill" someone's soul, his/her identity, his/her life that way. We humans aren't interchangeable. Joe was taken from his body before he died--he deserved another chance as Joe. Those who believe in nothing but their five senses will object on the grounds that the movie is a fantasy, that G-d, angels and a spirit world don't exist. I happen to be a believer, but aside from theological factors consider this: There is growing tendency to categorize human beings as nothing more than smart machines which have no unique value or claim on life. That doen't bode well for any of us.

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Yeah, when I first saw this I could see the obvious sadness of what had happened. To the filmmakers' credit, I don't feel they tried to gloss this over. The movie has the feel of a mild black comedy. Joe would have much rather have stayed Joe.

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I think that the popular cope out from the film makers would be to come to a sugary end. That the film does not satisfy every wish of the audience it is to their credit. I tremor to think what they would do now...

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This was remade several years ago with the guy from Reds, Warren Beatty, and James Mason as Mr. Jordan. It sucked.

Nothing exists more beautifully than nothing.

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[deleted]

I think the Warren beatty remake was far superior for the acting. The relationship between Joe and Max was far more compelling and I still cry every time I see it when Joe becomes the other guy at the end. Even though Joe gets the girl at the end of both films, poor Max is left holding the bag because he knows about Mr. Jordan and the whole mixup. Either Joe should've been able to maintain his identity or Mr. Jordan could've made Max forget too. At least in this original Joe still has his sax so Max knows it is him and they are going to be working together.

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I agree. This is a great movie with what would seem to be a major flaw. Murdoch is 'killed' in the ring and it's at this moment when Jordan exchanges Joe Pendleton's soul for Murdoch's. Then, shortly after the fight, Mr. Jordan inexplicably 'reinserts' Murdoch's soul back into his own body while Pendleton/Murdoch is taking a shower.

So, the question remains, what happened to Joe Pendleton's soul? Since it's still Robert Montgomery on the screen, it 'looks' like Pendleton is still within Murdoch's body, but it's actually Murdoch's soul back in his own body.

The biggest problem is Mr. Jordan's remark to Pendleton/Murdoch that "Murdoch was told of the fight and was pleased". This means that Murdoch's soul had been lifted and went to heaven.

Frankly, one wonders if Murdoch's soul had been complaining about the entire situation after Pendleton had gotten his body, so Jordan, having tired of the whole mess, simply reinserted Murdoch into his own body, erased any memory he had of going to heaven, kept Pendleton's memory of the fight, and simply eliminated Pendleton's soul in its entirety. In fact, there might even be a subtle allusion to cremation as an improper means for which to maintain the departed's remains. Since Pendleton had been cremated, does this mean that his soul no longer gets to exist?

OTOH, Jordan was in a situation where he probably couldn't let Pendleton run around with memory and knowledge of the afterlife. So, Jordan did the best he could in eliminating as much of Pendleton's memory by merging it with Murdoch's. The question then becomes what happened to the real Murdoch's soul?

Even more curious would be what happens when this merged Pendleton/Murdoch dies and presumably goes to heaven. Maybe it would be at this point when Pendleton gets his memory back and becomes a separate, whole entity again. This could have been explained by Jordan as he's talking to himself when he makes the 'merge' when Pendleton/Murdoch in the shower. Jordan's final line could have been "You won't completely become Joe Pendleton again until after you die at your proper time."

Regardless, it was a superb way to draw the audience into the sadness of the final scene with Murdoch (looking like Pendleton) talking to Evelyn Keyes. For it to have been as Jordan had promised to Pendleton early in the movie, Pendleton/Murdoch would have retained his entire personality and memory intact, but I guess that just wasn't possible.

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I just saw this movie and I thought it was perfectly fine.

Murdoch's soul wasn't placed back in his body. It was Pendleton's soul, he just didn't have the memories from his old life. Murdoch's soul remained in heaven. Just because a soul doesn't have his memories make it incomplete.

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I agree with krabbypattie. I just watched it too and other than being reminded that this movie was outstanding on so many levels, thought about the very thing this thread is about.

If you recall, Murdoch's body, so to speak, recognized Max, his Sax and of course Bette, but consciously could not put it all together. His "soul" recognized that these three were vital to his eternal life and put them into Murdoch's earthly one. It fits in well with the concept of reincarnation, where one's past lives are revealed through meditation or some other means.

My only criticism was leaving Max hanging! Why couldn't Mr Jordan give him a sign that he wasn't going bonkers??

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> Murdoch's soul wasn't placed back in his body. It was Pendleton's soul, he just didn't have the memories from his old life. Murdoch's soul remained in heaven. Just because a soul doesn't have his memories make it incomplete.

...and it is precisely at this point that believers diverge from nonbelievers, as foreshadowed in cineaste1939's original post. Because I don't believe in an immortal soul, I cannot separate "memories" from "personal identity" in my head, so I still have a problem with the concept. To me, you ARE your life experiences. No point discussing the validity of either of our philosophies (we know where THAT will lead - just look at the Golden Compass forum!) but I just wanted to point out why some people have more trouble with this plot element than others.

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You are exactly right. If you have no memories of "you" and memories of Murdock, then what of you remains. Nothing. An interchangeable soul? Does who any good? And the Invisible Man beaming down on the sides showing all's well. Nuts. If Murdock has all his memories, what's he doing up in heaven? Are there two of him and no Joe? Fantasies must have some sort of logic. And it seems very Calvinistic that everything is destined ahead of time, so all's well.

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Joe wanted a career as a great boxer and he also wanted Bette. But the only way to achieve both wishes was to get a body. Mr. Jordan (Claude Rains) erased Joe's memory (but not completely), because he can only achieve all of his wishes in the identity of someone else. So Mr. Jordan picked Murdock's body and erased most of Joe's memories. But he didn't erase the "illusion" of Joe, few parts of his memories, and Joe's soul. That's why he remembers Saxophone and slightly remembers Bette.

People may ask why Mr. Jordan erased Joe's most of memory. This is because Mr. Jordan wanted Joe to get what he wanted the most - Bette. If Joe had his complete memory, then people including Bette will think that Joe (in Murdock's body) is gone mad. This will prevent Joe from getting Bette. Look how people reacted to Max Corkle (James Gleason) when he said it was Joe in Farnsworth's body. They thought Max was mad.

In the end, we still see Joe with a "partial memory." Joe still has the same soul and same illusion. Only most of his memories were erased. And Joe was given the identity of Murdock and Murdock's memories to survive in this world and live happily with Bette and have a wonderful career with Max. But the soul belongs to Joe. Not Murdock. That's what I think.

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i'm an atheist, but I'm willing to play along with the assumptions of the movie.

I do think, however, that this ending is an unsatisfactory compromise ... we get our sense of identity from our memories ... that's why Alzheimers is such a devastating disease,

Joe seems to be left only with Murdoch's memories, which means Joe has been effectively erased, except for some sort of vague feeling of a memory lost.

The movie is great, but the ending doesn't really gel.

But you ARE Blanche ... and I AM.

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I'm with you krabbypattie. I always thought that Pendleton carried out the rest of his life in Murdoch's body, having no memory of his previous life as Joe Pendleton.

Thankfully they did not go for a saccharine ending that tied up all the questions. The fact that there are these debates about the end 60 years later are a compliment to the writers.

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...only if they intended it to be unclear...

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Thankfully they did not go for a saccharine ending that tied up all the questions. The fact that there are these debates about the end 60 years later are a compliment to the writers.

I agree with you, MovieKnut, they tied up enough and left enough unsaid to keep it interesting and spark debate, even today, all these years later.

For me, I would say that believers can take comfort in that Joe and Murdoch, whose souls were matched, according to Mr. Jordan, would meet again in the hereafter, each as their own individual souls.

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YOU'LL NEVER ENJOY A MONUMENTAL FANTASY FILM LIKE THIS AS MUCH AS PEOPLE LIKE ME... YOU SOUND LIKE SOME GUMP WHO HAS TO CATEGORIZE EVERYTHING. THIS FILM IS FAR MORE BELIEVABLE THAN THE JUNK THEY MAKE TODAY, ANYWAY.

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I had no problem with it. Joe would not have been as happy remembering he was once not only one other person but two others :) ....this way his life is his own, no regrets other than his own decisions, no other life to compare his life to, in the "actual" sense.

How many Amish does it take to screw in a light bulb????

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It is weird that anyone is confused (or has a problem) about this concept since it wouldn't be much of a story without it. The whole point is the interplay between free will and destiny; and that our soul (or essence) will show through any superficial covering (identity-memories) and will transcend any setbacks or changes.

The story is meant to be allegorical. Accidents, mistakes, evil, or just general circumstances can rob us of what was to be our destiny. But to our soul (or essence) this does not matter-just like Moonlight Graham in "Field of Dreams" we find a substitute for what we can't have. What we do with it is up to us (free will).

The only thing different in this film is that Joe Pendleton is robbed of his destiny by forces that have some power to give it back to him, although not in exactly the same way it would have been had they not made the mistake. And to further compensate they give him a connection with Betty Logan.

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This film is one of my all times, and I still have trouble getting around this one.

1) This was Murdoch's time to die so he's gone on 2) Mr. Jordan made a copy of Murdoch's memories and identity for Pendleton and submerged Pendleton's own identity 3) WHY did he have to do that? It felt really unfair. I thought the idea was that Pendleton had died too soon so he had to go on living.

Now, I was raised by a spiritualist mother, and this is a film with a spiritualist theme and deals very matter-of-factly with walk-ins. That belief system by all means allows for Joe retaining his own identity while sharing Murdoch's memories. In real life, there are people who feel they are doing just this with a departed person. I suspect they didn't go with this because "it would have been too confusing to the audience". Phooey!!

I'm all right, I'm alllll right!

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Yeah, I agree with the OP on this one - I thought this was a big ripoff, frankly. Very unfair to Joe, and just really bogus. Who's to say that Murdoch's destiny wasn't to be the champ as well, and Mr. Jordan just decided to kill two birds with one stone?




I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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I tried to explain it once. So what part of "allegory" don't you understand?

"Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy." Or in this case soul/free will and identity/destiny.

Probably the best scene is at the end, when the lights go out in the arena tunnel and Miss Logan connects with the protective quality in Joe's voice. In the dark there is no superficial identity to confuse her.

I know that thinking is sometimes a lot of work, but try it this one time. This is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning. If you are lazy and just take it literally you are missing a good share of the reason the story is being told in this fashion. Complaining about this story device is like complaining about "The Red Badge of Courage" having a main character who is mostly referred to as "the youth", since being a nameless youth is the whole point.

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Wow. Rude much?



I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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I disagree with the OP, though I can understand the concerns. If people really want to understand it, they should read all the comments, including ones that try to explain it, such as Sonysuu and Aimless-46.


Now here’'s my explanation:

Joe is living as someone else now. People obviously do not know that Murdoch is dead and would go bonkers if they did, therefore Joe wouldn'’t be able to return. Remember Joe'’s reaction when he won? He kept saying, "“That'’s not me, that'’s Murdoch."” It couldn'’t be helped that he won in Murdoch'’s body since his own body was gone; nonetheless Joe would have still gone on thinking that the victory was never his.

Prior to this Mr. Jordan probably wasn'’t thinking of erasing Joe’'s memory of being Joe and knew how much he wanted Bette and the victory, but realized that Joe would always be in agony and denial since people know longer knew him as Joe except Max (whom everyone thinks is nuts)

Mr. Jordan didn'’t want Joe to live his second chance in someone else’'s shadow and since Joe is known to be gone to the world and is now known as Murdock, the only practical solution would be to change some of Joe'’s memories into Murdock’'s- his identity, his career up till now, etc. However, Joe'’s soul is still there; he doesn'’t exactly remember the saxophone, Max, or Bette, but the part of him that compels him to them is Joe. From what I remember in the movie Murdoch was also a “straight” and “clean” guy, a similar character to Joe, so that helps.

It also helps that the memory of Joe’s/Murdoch’s death date is also erased. Think about it, a lot people would rather not know when they’re going to die- it would hinder their life.

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He still gets another chance as 'Joe'. He is Joe. Murdoch is dead, Mr Jordan said it himself. He's up in heaven. One of the major points of the movie is that the body is just a vessel for the soul. People trying to bring questions of belief into it are missing the point. Its a fictional movie and in this fictional movie, there IS fate, there IS a soul, there IS a heaven. Whether they exist in real life is up to interpretation but in the world of the movie it really isn't. Joe's soul is who he is, his basic goodness, the thing that makes him live his life as he does. By the end of the movie, Murdoch isn't put back into his body. He's dead. Joe is left in his body. Does he have a different set of memories? Yup. I'm sure when he dies he'll get his entire life in thoughts back. But he can't keep them. He knows things that a person can't know and live a happy, fulfilling life. He knows when he will die. What's to stop him from doing crazy things knowing that no harm will come? For a brief time they can keep an eye on him, they can't forever, they have a job to do.

Joe will get the girl he loves, he'll get to be champ like he always wanted, he'll get to live a good life as a man who is very much like he is. The film makers go out of their way to show that they are very similar people. Why? Because its important we realize that Joe isn't getting gipped. Sure, he lost a lot, but we knew that the second we knew he couldn't go back to his body. He gets a lot too. He gets everything he ever wanted. Not the way he wanted it maybe but as close as could be at this point.

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Bing148 summed it up pretty well... In the movie it makes sense what happened. You can't go switching out a body and soul without some repercussions and making a few hard choices. Joe still is there in soul, there are hints of it by little things he can not quite figure out but has a vague memory of. They also hinted earlier in the movie that this isn't the first time it's happened where they made a mistake. You can't have people running around on earth with knowledge of heaven and when you are going to die and all that...that would make a mess of everything. In order for Joe to fuction as Murdoch it was the only way. As in life most bad mistakes can not be fixed...only patched up to a certain point. One plus in this version is that Joe/Murdoch and Corkle still get to work together where that really wasn't the case in the remake. I'm sure over time Corkle would see things in Murdoch that are Joe.

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I never thought it to be that complicated. There's more or less 3 separate phases/personas involved: Joe (original life), Murdoch (original life), Joe living as Murdoch (Joe's soul being placed in Murdoch's body).

I always assumed things went something like this:

* Murdoch died and his soul went on to the afterlife. It is not modified in any way.
* Joe's soul was placed in Murdoch's body.
* Mr. Jordan "blocked out" Joe's memories of being Joe and replaced them with Murdoch's memories for the duration of Joe's life as Murdoch.
* When Joe (as Murdoch) dies, all of his 'original' memories (life as Joe, time as Farnsworth) return to the surface.
* In the afterlife, soul IS Joseph Pendleton, but he also has memories of his time living AS Murdoch (and presumably all of the memories of the original Murdoch's life up to the point when Murdoch died).

As for anyone that says "I don't believe in the afterlife, so if Joe's memories are wiped out than he ceases to exist"... That belief refers to our universe. In Joe's universe, it's already been established that there IS an afterlife with souls, so those arguments don't hold up when speaking of Joe's universe.

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