MovieChat Forums > Dumbo (1941) Discussion > How are the crows racist?

How are the crows racist?


Whats the difference between them and a modern character in a computer animated film wearing chains and being dressed up like a gangster rapper?

Its a stereotype yes.But maybe black people wouldn't be stereotyped as gangster rappers,and gypies wouldn't be sterotyped as fortune tellers if they just stopped doing it.The irish get alot of stick for drinking.The list goes on.

I don't think disney was targeting black people in an attempt to get you to join the kkk.All characters in modern films will be some kind of stereotype its just how they work.

reply

It's not just because of the "lingo" and accent. Last I remember, (if I'm not mistaken) one of them was called "Jim Crow" and since the crows are like,
African-American....Jim Crow laws.

All the world will be your enemy, Prince With a Thousand Enemies. And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, full of tricks, and your people shall never be destroyed.

reply

The laws were named after the character "Jim Crow" from minstrel shows, so Jim is probably named after him. Which isn't any better, really.

Here there be FROGGERS.

reply

What are FROGGERS?

Here is the original Jim Crowe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_D._Rice

I found this bit really interesting: "Rice also performed as the "Yankee" character, an already-established stage stereotype who represented rural America and dressed in a long blue coat and striped pants." (This is the 1830's.)

And then there's this:

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/yankee/

The American author E. B. White came up with a funny summary of how to keep the term straight. It shows how, in the end, who is and isn't a Yankee is all about the geographic perspective:

To foreigners, a Yankee is an American.
To Americans, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To Easterners, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter.
And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.



reply

So what you're saying is that it's not racist because we still have racist stereotyping in movies today????? That doesn't make sense. It's possible for old stereotypes AND modern stereotypes to be racist ; )

reply

What alot of people don't get is that these things wouldn't be stereotypes if they weren't based in fact. Not all black people were/are like that, but having a stereotypically black character doesn't automatically translate into racism. There are lots of stereotypes; The manly, adventurous Australian, the loudmouthed New Yorker, the fat trucker, the suicidal goth, the rich, snobbish, tea-drinking British guy...the list is endless. Does that mean every time a movie contains one of these stereotypes it becomes hate speech?

The Crows in Dumbo are nicer to Dumbo than most of the other characters. They take pity on him and help him become famous. If they are meant to be broad generalization of the black community than we'd be forced to conclude that Disney is saying Negroes are nicer than white people.

reply

What confusis the isue is the fact that the voice artist for "Jim Crow" was white.

reply

Belated reply; I couldn't help myself. Just think: I created an account on this site for this sole purpose.

Not only was the voice actor for Jim Crow white, but he was nicknamed Jim Crow as a joke. Now, I'm aware that many people (oddly enough, most of them white themselves) get extremely up in arms about racism, or their perceived notion of it. As a womens advocate regarding sexism and, to a lesser extent, racism, allow me to DEFINE what racism is, a point I have not yet seen on this board: hatred or intolerance of another race or other races, or discrimination; that is, treating someone of another race differently (usually in a cruel or harmful way) because of their race. I understand that many self-proclaimed advocates for racism are defensive, however.. the nit-picking and searching for something to get angry about isn't being defensive. Rather, it's the opposite: aggressive - and rather offensive, as well.

A common statement made on these boards was this: "The movie was made in 1941. The portrayal of black people was accurate to the time." I have yet to see a response to this; I don't know if that's because no one is capable of finding a coherent reply, or because there IS none. People seem to get angry about anything possible that has already occurred; not to say this is a wrong way to look at history, but simply incorrect *in this instance.* The Disney production was created based upon life *at that moment in time.* To get angry NOW is not only foolish - have you realized that we have different ideas at this point in history? - but a waste of effort. Instead of getting angry over how America used to be, why not put the effort into making sure we learn from the mistakes and better ourselves? Are you people that caught up in trying to right "wrongs" from over sixty years ago?

A common tactic I have seen is to get overwhelmingly angry about a preconceived notion regarding racism - does anyone else remember the issue about "Chief" being considered a racist term (against Native Americans) when in fact the word Chief is actually FRENCH? - and bowl over opposition. If the opposition persists in disagreeing and arguing their point, the cry of "foul play, racism" comes in. Claiming injury due to racism is usually a winning tactic, but it's a cheap shot; it implies that you have nothing else to argue your point with except for a very impersonal, vague and generally senseless accusation.

Having watched Dumbo fairly recently once more after not having seen the movie in over fifteen years, I will admit that I was at first shocked - for a split second. The shock was mainly because I did not recall any of these details as a child; the lyrics of the Roustabout song, the "stereotypical black speech" of the crows.. it escapes children. And that's something people need to keep in mind when trying to bash a childrens movie: it's on par with a fairy tale. Has anyone ever heard of Bettelheim? His opinions of fairy tales are very intriguing; basically, it eases children into realizing the world isn't all spun sugar and rainbows. It shows the darker aspects of the human nature in a way that isn't too intense for the child, but shows them hope, as well. Interesting viewpoint; I wish I had time to talk about him in more depth (but this isn't a class!), but I need to get to bed and I'm sure most of you are lost at this point anyway.

I hope my general message got through.

reply

Yes, your well written message got through. I haven't seen a reference to Bruno Bettelheim in years. Today I have mixed feelings about the crows, but when I saw the film as a child I unconditionally loved their help and thought they were very cool.

reply

Verbose. Consider editing.

reply

Your logic is faulty and ridiculous. Stereotypes are for lazy asses whether they're based on truth or not. That's like saying "well I added these two numbers here up and got 2 so any numbers added up must also be 2". World doesn't work like that hon. Stop being lazy and take the time to get to know individual people for who they are.

~the greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return~

reply

Fascinating assertion. Roger and the Nanny in 101 Dalmatians are nice white people and are neither opressive nor cruel, but they are hapless (though not childlike) when compared to Pongo and Perdita. Lady's owners, too, are not cruel but they are hapless when compared to Tramp. John (Johnny’s dad) and the Grandmother in Song of the South aren't hapless, but they aren’t as competent as Uncle Remus in nuturing Johnny, and Remus is clearly celebrated as the hero (along with Brer Rabbit, his alter ego). I wouldn't have labeled Disney as subversive but you bring up some good points.

reply

The thing with the black crows is pretty innocuous in my opinion. It doesn't cast them in a discriminatory or hateful light; they are actually heroes, giving dumbo the confidence to fly. They have a wonderful vaudeville sensibility which was very popular at the time.

reply

heroes who talked like idiots. i love stereotypes. and thanks for writing that book in the previous post. yay racism! and, yes, because it came out in 1941, all is ok! they could say whatever about black people, and it was carte blanche! honestly, give me a facking break.

reply

[deleted]

Happy again to see the stimulating assertion that Disney effected white baby boomers en masse during the 1950's and 1960's with his cleverly subversive motion pictures and television shows, for the collective good. Perhaps Warner Brothers did similar subversive work using Bugs, Daffy, Porky and company. Without them and the exciting fare of Marvel and DC comics and Mad magazine, fairy tales from the Brothers Grimm and the like would have remained terrifying and there would have been little to balance the world-views shoveled out by the largely reactive relgious and educational institutions of the time. Perhaps Uncle Walt did help us to expand our minds and avert nuclear holocaust, however indirectly. A very generous assessment of Disney indeed.

reply

[deleted]

Hey, maybe Walt Disney was a guy who wanted to created entertainment that can be enjoyed by everyone. Its a complicated theory, I know!

This is IMDb, so I really shouldn't except intelligence from some of its members, but I hope everyone realizes why "HUR, WALT DISNEY IS A RACIST NAZI" or "HUR HUR DISNEY WAS A CREATOR OF CYNICAL ENTERTAINMENT, SUBLIME, TRYING TO BRAINWASH PEOPLE WITH HIS VIEW THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE ANIMALISTIC CREATURE PORTRAYED BY THE CROWS IN THE MOVIE, DON'T ASK ME WHERE I GOT THIS, JUST LISTEN" sound really stupid.

reply

[deleted]

First off this is a kids film. Who gives a ratsass if this film has JIVE TALKING CROWS. Get over yourselves people. Yes it was 1941, was it right back than, depends on your view. Is it considered right in todays time, NOWAY.
There is something that blacks, whites, chinese, irish and all others alike need to face, we all at one time in our history have been treated as slaved, its just that blacks were last on the list and feel it was worse. Did anyone know that the irish were treated worse than a black slave, and that most of the chinese were used as sex slaves.... people love to soak in nice tub or sorrow and eat their petty cake. $hit happens people grow up and get along. If not than just don't bother people.

reply

"Did anyone know that the irish were treated worse than a black slave"

Oh ya zakima2 there were so many irish getting beaten half to death, having their children sold away by force & being killed when they tried to run away from their masters, are you *beep* retarded?

"who died and made you danny?"

reply

well, i didn't think they talked like idiots. i thought they were cool. and i did not mean to suggest that just because it came out in 1941, anything goes. not at all. i was just saying that the crows had a popular vaudeville quality. vaudeville is great. it was the early "black" culture of traveling musicians and entertainers, created by black people. white people tried to imitate vaudeville because it was good, just like they imitated blues and jazz music. it would be like the same as putting a hip-hop style song in a movie today. also, i didn't write the long post. that was another user.

reply

Those of you who think people on this board are over-the-top in seeing racism here...after reading this:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/127832/racism_misogyny_and_an imal_abuse_in.html?cat=40

they will seem pretty innocuous.

http://thedancingimage.blogspot.com/

reply

Thanks for the link. Good to be reminded of how important it is for some to place politically correct lenses over their eyes and see what they wish to see in an exercise to gain an affirmation of self-worth and greater political power. This is what wide-eyed college kids did back in the late 60's and 70's (I was one of them) and over the years has spread to the larger pockets of the population as an accepted form of wisdom. Should one voice an objection to this form of psuedo-intelligence, he or she may be readily reprimanded by a goverment funded authority figure (teacher, professor, bureaucrat, etc) or by members of a government entitled special interest group. With the relentless spread of federal government power, political thinking disguised as science is sadly becoming the norm.

reply

We perceive it as racism today,because that is usually the reason behind such portrayals.We don't bother to put ourselves into the mentality of that era-Dumbo WAS made in the early 40's- or consider the possibility of art imitating life and not stereotypes.I actually found the crows' song lyrics to be rather clever,like the wordplays on horsefly and rubber band and whatnot.The crow's accents,as well as their dialect was probably pretty accurate,what with segregation still in effect in many places.The only black people that white people interacted with were probably from a rural setting,since the cities were still segregated.The way they portray the black "stereotype" in this movie most likely had no negative connotations attached;that was just how people were.If you listen,and think about it a bit more,instead of just glancing at it and shouting racism,you might see that there is no negative stereotype there.The "stupid way" of talking,as we see it to be,is actually how they spoke,and it wasn't considered to be stupid then,just different.The crows' personalities,how they seemed slightly sarcastic,but willing to humor Timothy and Dumbo,is how people acted and still act.They're wary of far-fetched concepts,but willing to keep an open mind,even as they don't believe it(the sarcasm and disbelief in 'When I see an Elephant Fly'.)If you really look at the movie,you'll see that there's no racist stereotypes in the crows.The sad part is that people today inherently look for something that widely offensive or condemned,or they assume the worst case scenario,so we assume that the writers and animators were racist and wanted to sneak something into a children's movie.Pretty pessimistic attitude,actually.

reply

[deleted]

As a kid, I never really thought of the crows as 'Black.' Sure, they were crows, but I didn't think of them as being stereotypes.

Though I'm in the group that likes them because they actually take pity on Dumbo, and offer to help him.

Then again, most of these 'stereotypes' I never made the connection with as a kid.

"HAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMM!!!!"

reply

[deleted]

Great post, snz13, particularly your comments on pre-WWII demographics.

reply

[deleted]

As some others have said here, it wasn't so much racist as it was a blatant stereotype. Also, as others have said, it wasn't uncommon to the 40's and wasn't created with any kind of malicious intent. If anything, the film decries the prejudice or discrimination of others because they're different.

The crows, although befitting the jive-talking Sambo, minstrel show caricatures of blacks, were supposed to be seen as something positive. They were accepting of Dumbo when others weren't and they encouraged him. Obviously, their portrayals wouldn't be acceptable today since we're aware of the suggestions of those stereotypes, and how they helped negatively shape perceptions of blacks. Back then, however, they were seen as a positive.

I doubt watching this movie today would alter a kid's perception of any group of people--primarily because they're animals, but also because this is not the only representation that they see as would probably have been the case in the 40's. I'm not even sure if I thought of the crows as being black when I was a kid. Regardless, you can't hold these movies to the same moral standards of today. There's no way to accurately represent an entire group of people but obviously today we're more aware of how certain portrayals, even if true in some cases, may not be done in the best tastes or interests of everybody.

reply

[deleted]