Is it cliche to say the most overrated movie of all time - Citizen Kane (1941) Discussion

It's cliché, repetitive, over-stated, under-thought and just plain tiresome.

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[–] doug65oh 8 years ago

Well, you know, perhaps it is – although I’m not sure I’d call it cliché. What is in fact clichéd I think is the overwhelming desire we see so often nowadays is to dismiss Kane or any other popular book or movie we don’t like as “over-rated.” It all depends on who’s doing the rating at any given time, and that’s all that can really and truly be said about the matter. Time and again I see things dismissed as “over-rated” in rants extending for hundreds of words, close reading of which only begs the questions, “Really? Is that the very best you can do? Not very original today are we?”

I don’t watch the film religiously, but I do enjoy a viewing now and then of a quiet afternoon. It’s a great film. In terms of comparables I don’t believe there was one truly, once upon a time – unless some case could be made likening it to the Mercury Theatre production of “Julius Caesar” done in the summer of 1938.

In both Caesar and Citizen Kane what do we have but a newfangled telling of what is actually a story as old as Caesar himself if not older. Friends, Romans, Countrymen, this much we know: That somewhere beneath the pyre where great Caesar was burned there may (and I say may) lie one small trace of ash, that which in succeeding ages prove that him we mourn today was not a god but a person of flesh and blood, as are we all.

Literary hogwashing aside, what do we find in Charlie Kane? That (as a half-crazed Dane once reportedly mused) is the question. That’s the beauty of the thing for my nickel: Not one of the characters portrayed in Kane really knew him although in some cases they’d known him for years. What was it Jed Leland said? “Well, I thought I was his friend, but maybe I was just a stooge…”

They all knew Charlie in ways, but his death has shaken them almost to the core, revealing not so much a “Who was he?” story but rather a “Who am I?” story.

If Citizen Kane suffers from anything as years pile upon years, I would say (again, for my own nickel) Welles’s bloated ego/reputation is as responsible as anything else. He left us a wonderful legacy, but in the end (like Charlie Kane and the rest of us) he was a human being.

It’s not a film fit for zombies, that’s for sure!

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[–] bruce-129 8 years ago

"Citizen Kane" is the cliche best movie, it is constantly mentioned as the best movie of all time, thus my characterizing it as cliche. Historically it is an important movie, I'll grant that, I never meant not to, but it is a study in a the myth of the rich man. It is pandering to the audience in my opinion ... we common men supposedly want to believe that all rich people are missing something vital to character and a good life. While that might be true for lots and lots of rich people, it is a cliche.

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[–] dsliquid 8 years ago

"we common men supposedly want to believe that all rich people are missing something vital to character and a good life."

Hmmm, no? It's the complete opposite, which is why movies like these are important! Most people think that wealth, status and power are what make us happy, which is why "we" strive so hard to get those things.

The truth is that they don't make you happy at all. Sure, some very wealthy people are happy, but that's not because of their wealth. There are completely different things that really matter!

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[–] TheArtOfBeingRandom34523 8 years ago

It's both cliché to like it or to say that it is overrated.
I think that it's technically amazing, but it just CAN'T love it.

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[–] bruce-129 8 years ago

I remember liking it the first time I saw it in the 70's in school as a teen.
It is a teen movie, with fairly quaint simple ideas. But I could not ever sit
through it again, and even find it annoying for its simple-mindedness and
a kind of coldness. It catches something well,

I love classic movies, but to me this may well be classified as a technical
classic, but in terms of emotion, I agree, it is hard to love. We have a local
theater that plays only old movies, from the 20's to the 50's, maybe a 60's
once or twice a year. They change their films twice a week. So I have seen
a lot of old movies that are all very good. The older movies have a heart,
consistency and focus that is completely absent in today's movies. So,
part of being a classic would be hitting that note. I think young people of
today do not know what they are missing, or what a classic even is in some
cases. Sorry to be condescending, which I am sure that sounds like.

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[–] TheArtOfBeingRandom34523 8 years ago

Well yes, Citizen Kane is shot in a rather cold way, but this might be intentional.

Your definition of old movies is simply spot-on, althogh it's not always true, old movies just have that magic and that charisma that gets you into the movie even if you've seen it 10 times.

I also find this to happen with 80s movies, but in a different way.

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[–] Symarip 7 years ago

I think young people of today do not know what they are missing, or what a classic even is in some cases. Sorry to be condescending, which I am sure that sounds like.

Yeah, there's that, and then there's the fact that your post is nothing but a bunch of generalizations.

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[–] jasonschultz62 8 years ago

On of the greatest films ever made in my not so humble opinion. In the top 5 for sure.

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[–] bruce-129 8 years ago

You like the movie, that is fine.

I am just saying that to me, it is more historically memorable, like an old building
that was revolutionary in its day, but that would not serve a useful purpose today.
For theme and story, cinematography, score, etc I would give it a 6/10, but it is
a classic, in the sense of "Birth Of A Nation" that one might want to watch once
to have seen it, but as things progress that becomes more and more of an effort.

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[–] CapnKaos 7 years ago

While I'll admit it's cliche to say it's one of your favorite movies or it's in your top 10 of all time simply because you've heard it's so good, it's not cliche to say it's one of the finest movies ever made. Simply because it's true.

Citizen Kane is one of those rare movies that I've given a perfect 10 to in terms of score. Part of this is due to the technical side of things as Orson Wells pioneered certain film making techniques in this movie. Things like deep focus were first used in this and now it's used everywhere. The use of high, medium and low angles. Tracking shots. Montage editing. POV shots. The masterful use of sound. The lighting. The list goes on. And that's not to say that he created all of these but he was the first to use them in such a way as to bring them to the people.

Then there's the dialogue. It's not the "theater" dialogue as you'd see in a movie during that time. If you've ever seen a movie from the 30's or 40's the characters have a way of speaking that isn't completely natural. I've always called this "theater acting" as that was what movies were up until that time. They were plays put on in front of a camera and they felt and sounded like it. The dialogue in this movie is sharp. It's fresh at least for the time. It feels a little dated today but remember, this was almost 75 years ago. It was a paradigm shift back then.

Orson Welles was not only the director, but the star, producer and writer of the movie. Can you name me one person today that is capable of all four things at the same time? That's a lot of work. The man was a perfectionist and it shows.

So no, it's not the most overrated movie of all time.

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[–] bruce-129 7 years ago

The problem with this movie, and the reason that, according to modern American
culture and beliefs, that this movie is cliche is that it is a simplistic story told with
too much drama. Everyone likes to think that really rich people are miserable and
yet look who we just elected President. That is why this movie is meaningless, except
for its historic value, it panders to the simple American people, who used to be nice
and are not more or less very ugly all around the world.

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[–] theuserformerlyknownasfrantruff 7 years ago

I've always thought that the true "message" of this film is that you can never truly know a person, that everyone plays the part of several different people depending on who they are interacting with, and that once you are dead only those impressions remain, regardless of how wrong (or accurate) they may have been. The "lonely at the top" story has never been the main appeal for me (although I do like it).

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[–] bruce-129 7 years ago

that is a valid impression, but then why was the movie about a super rich successful guy, contrasted with the people around him? Who cares if he was just a little kid inside if no one xould stand him. I think you cannot ignore the larger aspects of a movie. By the way ... did you know that Donald Trump said this is his favorite movie?

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[–] theuserformerlyknownasfrantruff 7 years ago

It was about a super rich guy because Mankiewicz wanted to write about Hearst and Welles loved the Shakespearean "giant destroyed by hubris" trope.

Kane's nostalgia for his childhood is not supposed to justify everything he did, just to offer a possible explanation (and, again, that's just how Kane himself saw his life, he may just have been trying to justify his actions to himself). By the way, Bernstein seemed to idolize the man, and Thatcher painted him as an idealist destroyed by the world, so not everyone hated the guy.

Yeah, I know it's Trump's favorite film. The man has got good taste in movies, at least :P

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[–] CapnKaos 7 years ago

The problem with this movie, and the reason that, according to modern American
culture and beliefs, that this movie is cliche is that it is a simplistic story told with
too much drama.

How is any of that cliche? Do you know what that word actually means because I think you don't.

Everyone likes to think that really rich people are miserable and yet look who we just elected President.

You might like to think that but I don't know of anybody that likes to think the rich are miserable. Honestly this sounds less like a critique of the movie than your own personal feelings towards the rich.

Speaking of which, what is "really rich" according to your criteria?

That is why this movie is meaningless, except for its historic value, it panders to the simple American people, who used to be nice and are not more or less very ugly all around the world.

You obviously don't get it if this is how you think.

There are three types of people that like Citizen Kane. The first are those, like in my original post, who say they like it because they heard how good it was and they know the meaning behind Rosebud. There are those that like it because it's a well made, well acted and well directed film. Then there are the film nerds who analyze everything about it and get off on how it was made.

With the exception of the first group, I wouldn't call the other two "simple". And you're also excluding everybody who isn't American. I'm sure there are Canadians who like it. I'd also be willing to bet that a lot of Brits, Kiwis and Aussies like it as well. Then the fact that it's been translated into just about every language in the world, I'm sure you'd be able to find fans of this from all over the globe.

Seriously. This is coming across more like you feel this way and you're imposing your reasons onto everybody.

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[–] bruce-129 7 years ago

> How is any of that cliche? Do you know what that word actually means because I think you don't.

Grow up, you're too rude and low-brow to have a discussion with, without insults and hyperbola.
Good bye - ignored!

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[–] CapnKaos 7 years ago

Yeah that's what I thought. It was a simple question but you walked too deep down the rabbit hole to admit it so you feign outrage and block me.

Real mature there Brucie.

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[–] TwoThousandOneMark 7 years ago

Ask a teenager in the year 2060 how influential the iPod was, let alone iPhone. They'll laugh in your face.

...my essential 50 http://www.imdb.com/list/ls056413299/

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 7 years ago

I wouldn't say that it's THE most overrated film ever. If I made a list of top 50 overrated films, Citizen Kane would make the list for sure, but there are others which deserve that title as well.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen = 

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[–] bruce-129 7 years ago

Such as, for instance??

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 7 years ago

For example, I like quite a few Hitchcock films more than I like Rear Window. Yet Rear Window seems to be a favourite among many film instructors. Come to think of it, if a mystery/thriller wasn't directed by Hitchcock, I doubt that the majority of film instructors would consider showing it to their students.

But anyhow, Rear Window would make my top 50 list.

So would Saving Private Ryan, which I have never liked.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen = 

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[–] bruce-129 7 years ago

So, you're saying "Rear Window" is more over-rated than "Citizen Kane"?
It's not one of my Hitchcock favorites, compared to say, "Vertigo".
I never considered "Saving Private Ryan" a classic really, or "Rear Window"
either, those also-run Hitchcock movie are more notables or favorites.

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[–] theuserformerlyknownasfrantruff 7 years ago

Rear Window seems to be the consensus third greatest Hitchcock film (after Vertigo and Psycho) and shows up on top 100 lists a lot, so yeah, it's a classic. I agree it's overrated, though.

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[–] bruce-129 7 years ago

I had no idea "Psycho" was rated so high, I thought the movie was terrible
and exploitative, not to mention stupid. I did like Vertigo and some other
earlier movies from Hitchcock.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 7 years ago

So, you're saying "Rear Window" is more over-rated than "Citizen Kane"?

Am I? Where?

~~~~~
Proud to be Canadian! 🇨🇦 

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[–] theuserformerlyknownasfrantruff 7 years ago

Come to think of it, if a mystery/thriller wasn't directed by Hitchcock, I doubt that the majority of film instructors would consider showing it to their students.

I've never been taken film course, but I imagine film noir such as "The Big Sleep" and "The Third Man" or Jean-Pierre Melville's movies would be screened there. Tons of techniques to learn from those films.

Can't remember much from Saving Private Ryan, except that the bookends in the graveyard and the scene were that general quotes Lincoln to justify the mission should have been cut.

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[–] clore_2 7 years ago

I had one employee who took NYU film classes and he was introduced to Lang, Wilder, Siodmak, Ulmer and Preminger in a series about the impact of German impressionism. He and I would spend lunch hours together discussing the films as well as my offering additional suggestions based on non-emigres such as Hathaway, Neill, Norman Foster, Nick Ray.

It ain't easy being green, or anything else, other than to be me
  

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 7 years ago

Which 1920s and 1930s whodunits did he see?

The Ninth Guest?

Murder at the Vanities?

The Black Camel?

Eran Trece? (Yup, there are great foreign language whodunits out there.)

Le Mystere de la Chambre Jaune? (ditto)

Secret of the Blue Room?

The Thirteenth Chair?

The Thirteenth Guest?

The Cat and the Canary (1920s, 1930s)?

The White Cockatoo?

The Terror?

Mystery House?

While the Patient Slept?

Murder by an Aristocrat?

The Kennel Murder Case?

The Greene Murder Case?

The Dragon Murder Case?

And how about thrillers from that time period?

Murder by the Clock?

Seven Keys to Baldpate? (I recommend the 1929 version)

Before Dawn?

The Unguarded Hour?

Or were these types of films beneath him?

---------------------------------

I hope he's not one of those people who limits himself to predictable adaptations based on predictable Cornell Woolrich literature.  (Rear Window, plus several radio plays.)

~~~~~
Proud to be Canadian! 🇨🇦 

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 7 years ago

I do beg your pardon. I forgot that hard-boiled detectives seem to be liked by film profs.

However, I was talking about whodunits. I was talking about isolated house/hotel/train films where some rich matriarch/patriarch is murdered for his/her money. Secret passages. Portraits where the eyes move. Maybe there was no rich old fart in the house. Someone else was murdered for another reason. And I'm not talking about the high-end adaptations, like Murder on the Orient Express (1970s). I'm talking about 1920s and 1930s B-movies such as The Greene Murder Case, While the Patient Slept, The Ninth Guest, etc. I'm talking about stars such as Lyle Talbot, Patricia Ellis, Dorothy Tree, Donald Cook, Ricardo Cortez, Robert Barrat, etc. I should have been clear about that from the start. (And yes, I know that The Maltese Falcon is technically a whodunit.)

~~~~~
Proud to be Canadian! 🇨🇦 

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[–] amyghost 7 years ago

Re: Is it cliche to say the most overrated movie of all time
image for user MsELLERYqueen2
by MsELLERYqueen2 » 2 days ago (Mon Jan 30 2017 15:15:07) Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since June 2004
For example, I like quite a few Hitchcock films more than I like Rear Window. Yet Rear Window seems to be a favourite among many film instructors. Come to think of it, if a mystery/thriller wasn't directed by Hitchcock, I doubt that the majority of film instructors would consider showing it to their students.

But anyhow, Rear Window would make my top 50 list.

So would Saving Private Ryan, which I have never liked.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Give it a rest. You know absolutely nothing whatsoever about 'film instructors' or film studies. You just spout the same cliches over and over that you've heard from someplace. You don't have the faintest idea of what's shown to students in these classes and your head would probably explode if anyone ever acquainted you with the variety of films that are studied in these courses.

50 Is The New Cutoff Age.

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[–] col_rutherford 7 years ago

Whether or not something is "overrated" is subjective. The word is used when someone doesn't like something as much as other people do.

I think Citizen Kane is deserving of acclaim. It boasts great acting, writing, cinematography, editing, and production design. It has a bold and innovative visual style. The story combines a mystery with a complex character study. I personally find the film to be very entertaining. Despite the film's dark and downbeat themes, it has moments of humour and even a song and dance number.

It doesn't matter to me if people don't think that Citizen Kane is the greatest movie ever made, but if they believe it's not I am curious as to which film they think is more deserving of that distinction.

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