PRO SOUTHERN RACISM!!!!


ONE OF THE WORST HOLLYWOOD MADE HISTORICAL BULL#*%$ EVER THROWN AT THE FILMGOER!!!!!!!

reply

I disagree. Errol Flynn is great!

reply

I agree. It makes all the anti-slavery characters rabid fanatics and lets the pro-slavery types come off as reasonable moderates, as when Errol Flynn's character says the South will take care of slavery in its own way and in its own time. Even for 1940 the pro-Southern bias is amazing.

reply

Could this script be an attack on communism?

By analogy, of course. But I found this one puzzling years ago, and puzzling as I watch it right now. The 1939 message might have been that you can go
crazy behind your righteous cause, and get labelled "a bunch of fanatics".
To quote the dashing slaveholder Jeb Stuart, as hoked up by the dashing Errol Flynn.

While doing this post I found Bosley Crowther's original review, which can be crammed into one sentence:

"Yet for any one who has the slightest regard for the spirit — not to mention the facts — of American history, it will prove exceedingly annoying."

reply

I don't really care why they produced such false and sickening claptrap. Its portrayal of John Brown is shameful!
Knowing that NeoCon revisionists get most of their education from films and television, TCM should know better than to show a movie with happy, healthy slaves and abolitionist crazies starting the Civil War!
There are other movies with these stars that don't incite historic whitewashing of important events.
PULL THIS FILM FROM YOUR ROTATION!

reply

[deleted]

You're advocating censorship? Really? Want to burn a few books while you're at it, Adolf?

reply

Santa Fe Trail is full of contradictions. Having its protagonists state its unknown wherever whose right or wrong yet the narrative clearly is in favor for those who did not question slavery and portraying John Brown as a lunatic. The ending with Brown's famous last words being focused upon for significance before glossing over his statement with the happy conclusion of a wedding. What a ridiculous film.

"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not".

reply

Isn't it possible that John Brown had the proper motive, but his methods bordered on lunacy (in the film or in real life)? Still, even if the movie had him flying on a rainbow with a purple unicorn at the end, the film shouldn't be destroyed because of it.

reply

I too have been active in various causes but they've all had zealots who.went too far. As have I more than once!

reply

Indeed, the film is historically inacurate. But It may prompt a more critical an reasonable view of the events sorrounding and leading to the Civil War.

We tend to assign a certain level of determinism to historical events, as if they were pre-determined. The case of the US Civil War is one of those. The war led to thousands of deaths, and great wounds among americans for years to come. It is no coincidence then that the real motive of the war, to preserve the Union, has receded to the other one of the Abolition of Slavery, to at least try to atone the great loss of life with a high moral crusade.

Other nations abolished slavery without recourse to a Civil War or high loss of life. Lincoln went to war to preserve the Federal Union; his feelings toward the african-american population were not exactly the ones of a liberator: he suggested voluntary migration back to Africa.

The truth is, each state had the right to secede the Union when it chose to. Massachussets was about to, and other states ratified the Constitution only after letting it be clear that they could secede. In this regard, Lincoln acted illegally. So much that ater the Civil War, Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy, could not be found guilty if tried for treason.

Lets look at history with more critical eyes

reply

I didn't see this film as pro-South. In fact, I was quite surprised by how careful it was to put across the anti-slavery view. Take Kit, for instance, isn't she one of numerous characters to say that what Brown fights for is undoubtedly right, but his methods are definitely wrong? That isn't pro-South - its a fair point. Custer as well has his only disagreement with Jeb over the issue of slavery, making it clear he believes it is wrong. For the 1940s, I thought it provided a surprisingly balanced point of view.

Gene Hunt: She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot

reply

As a Civil War buff,I enjoyed playing "spot the errors."Custer was only 15 in 1854,Longstreet and Picket had left West Point year earlier,Jeff Davis didn't have a daughter named Charlotte, Stuart didn't marry a Yankee,and Brown was hanged in 1859.I do see him as a dangerous maniac who did more harm than good and believe that the South should have been allowed to secede.

reply

[deleted]

''I do see him as a dangerous maniac who did more harm than good and believe that the South should have been allowed to secede.''

And keep their slaves...HURRAH FOR DIXIE!!!!

If you are sick of the ''I love Jesus 100% signature'', copy and paste this into your profile!

reply

in an otherwise intelligent & insightful post, you refrain the notion that slavery was not the front-and-center issue of the rebellion, and the war between the states over the question of the ability of the states to rebel against the union.

i have never understood the reluctance of people to acknowledge that slavery is what overhung the era. slavery was THE CAUSE OF the conflict. absent the conflict over slavery, the question of secession and rebellion never arises.

i'm not minimizing how central slave-labor was to the southern economy, and how unthinkable it must have been for southerners or, indeed, the nation as a whole to confront a reformation, but that was the central problem of the age. not disunion, the consequence.

reply

I saw this movie as a kid years ago and actually thought that John Brown was some raving maniac until I got older and actually found out who he really was. No one can tell me that movies do not have a impact on how people perceive things if they do not know better. Apart from the performances of Raymond Massey which was great. I find this movie in the same category as something like Birth of a nation, When the Van Heflin character is demonized in the very first minutes of the movie I knew we had a big problem.

Then the scene he is reading a passage from John Brown you would of thought it was the 1854 version of the Satanic Verses and he gets expelled from West Point for it!

One of the people who wrote a comment about this movie said this movie does not play sides I am not sure what movie they were looking at, but it certainly was not this one. I cringed at during the scene with the slaves on the train trying to get into Kansas. The men and women who risked their lives taking the abolitionist positions they did along with the slaves who were victims of such a atrocity were hero's and this movie tried to make them into some type of renegades. Shame on Warner Brothers and the people who feel this movie was great. Yes it is entertaining but it is dangerous. There is nothing right about slavery , nothing. The way the movie tried to advance Stuarts characters position with him making statements like there is no right or wrong position about slavery is dumb because the fact is that he supported the south and slavery. And then they did not go far enough making Brown a monster they had to have him kill a group of free staters too.

reply

"I ...actually thought that John Brown was some raving maniac ..."

Some of his actions were decidedly over-the-top, regardless of how righteous his cause may seem in retrospect. Ossawatomie Massacre, anyone?

reply

To be fair to Brown, the Battle of Osawatomie was initiated and the massacre of the towns citizens was commitedy by pro-slavery raider John W. Reid. Brown was actually defending the town - you've really got your history turned upside down!

Is it possibly the Pottawatomie massacre you're thinking of?

Don't get me wrong; Brown was obviously a vigilante; a loose canon. If anything, history has shown us time and again that a one-man crusade of violence has never led to any good...

reply

dear tisdalebalt, adlockhart19475, marbleann, and especially sdparkershannon ("Pull This Film From Your Rotation!"): you -- are -- let's see, how can i put this gently -- umm -- IDIOTS! sorry, other dear readers. i'm usually not so rude, but some people...

this movie was very entertaining -- NOT historically accurate, definitely NOT undated -- but entertaining. if you don't understand the difference going in, then there's probably not much help for you. and why is it that you oh-so-open-minded pc folk are always the first to demand censorship? especially if something "offends" your precious, and probably bigoted, worldview. could it be you're not really oh-so-open-minded after all? well, since i'm such an oh-so-nice fella as well as an oh-so-open minded movie fan, i'll give you all the benefit of the doubt -- maybe you're not idiots. maybe you're just throw-out-the-baby-with-the-bathwater people. a lot of those around. and as well-intentioned as some of those people are, they're much more dangerous than people like me. caution freedom lovers: political correctness, especially regarding race and culture, is the new fascism. and going back in time to judge others by today's standards is okay. banning movies and other works of art/entertainment is not too far removed from burning books. and dismissing them, as several of the above posters did, not because of their artistic/entertainment shortcomings, but because of social/political objections, is usually the first step. a good example that comes to mind is disney's 'song of the south.' that movie has been pulled (i.e. banned) while tripe such as the spike lee-produced 'csa: the confederate states of america' is hailed as "sharp satire." the latter is a much more bigoted, racist film than the former, but i would want neither banned.

reply

See it is people like you that have contributed to the dumbing down of this nation. Yes this move was made years ago but it is still being seen and you can buy it in any video store. The movie used historical characters, not fictional characters in the movie and they are portrayed in a way that was not consistent with history. If they are going to use historical characters, well at least get their history right. I am not for banning of any movie. Where you got that from only the stars in the sky knows. First I want to mention that the actor Raymond Massey seems to had tried to his best not to make John Brown a raging maniac but Warner's tried their hardest to not let Massey at least insert some decency to the character. And it was a entertaining movie,which makes it more dangerous.

What I am against is that the movie studio knowing that movies are very powerful and influential distorted history. It would of been a lot different if they used fictional characters. But no they did not and they did not for a reason. They wanted the viewers to believe and support their viewpoint. They actually made it seem like slavery was not such a bad thing and John Brown was some type of devil and the person who betrayed him was redeemed. They even made the fellow classmate who supported the abolition of slavery look like a troublemaker who needed to be kicked out of the Academy. And he paid for his beliefs by dying like some type of coward. Look at his name, Rader, his name even branded him. How dare them. He was a fictional character though. Isn't that odd? They made it seem like preserving slavery was some type of heroic quest. Did you see the scene when the slaves were on the train? You thought that was ok?
To top it off this studio is the same one that made the Native Americans look like some animal.

The studio knew that slavery was barely mentioned in the schools like the holocaust was barely mentioned on the schools in Germany. They made the man who thought slavery was a terrible thing a raving maniac. To this day people still think that John Brown was some type of devil. No one would call Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys terrorists in a movie. But believe me those men were not any different in their actions then John Brown, not one iota. But for some reason when it came and comes to showing the evils of slavery or fighting against it those great men are made to be something less then normal. Yes it is a movie but movies are very powerful. If you went one year to any school you would see how they even show movies in classes as teaching implements and I am sure this movie had been used as one and you think we are idiots. Well like they say people who are truly crazy never know they are. Now go look up a shrink.

I had to add this. I am not for any banning anything, even if I do not agree or or it insults me. See people like you accuse us of doing the same exact thing you are doing. Why would you feel CSA should be banned simply because the Sound of the South is? Is this just a game of tit for tat for you? If you were really correct you would not want anything banned AT ALL. I think Sound of the South should be on the market. I felt the movie White Dog should of not been taken off the market because of the NAACP or Amos and Andy which suffered the fate it did because of them also. I believe everything should be free to see or read or hear. See if one thing is banned sooner or later they come looking to ban something I like.

I cannot even put CSA in the same category as Santa Fe Trail simply because it is explained that the movie is about how life might have been if indeed the Confederate won. Do you actually think if they won black people would enjoy the same freedoms as they do now? Do you seriously believe a black man, Spike Lee, could even think about producing such a movie or produce anything other then offspring for the slave owner if the Confederate won? See you cannot blame a film maker for assuming a system that debased black people and treated us like property would indeed be any different if allowed to carry on if indeed that is the way the system was? I think Lee was only the executive Producer of C.S.A. but that is not important. IMO Bamboozled was far more powerful and very telling. See only racist do not like to see how diabolical the system of slavery was and they are bothered by movies like C.S.A. and they really do not like if people comment on how movies have distorted the system by making it seem it like it was not so bad. If you think being politically correct is making sure slavery is shown in the light it should be, well, so what, call me politically correct. Since when is that a bad thing? I would think being a bigot is a lot worse.

reply

your government school education/indoctrination is showing. you did not read my post very carefully. i am not in favor of banning csa or any movie based on political objections, just the opposite. that you would imply i am a bigot and contribute to the dumbing down of america based on my statements say more about you than me. when someone has a weak argument re: a racial topic they always resort to that, or the 'r' word, which i commend you for not using.

there are too many erroneous statements in your post to respond here, and this forum is supposed to be about santa fe trail and we're really getting a little off-topic, but i'll mention one. you are correct, spike lee did executive-produce csa (which in hollywood lingo means he put the package together, got the movie made, financially and otherwise). but you should do a little research into this talented but very racist man, whom you seem to admire. some say he is just a high-profile jock-sniffer, but that's beside the point. after watching and reading several interviews with lee i am convinced he is much worse -- and more influential -- than the people who made these older, now politically incorrect films. (btw, i don't think too many teachers are using this film to teach history, and if they are, then they are at fault and not the filmmakers.) just to give you one of many examples re: mr. lee, he said of actor charlton heston, apparently unhappy with his nra involvement, "shoot him with a .44 bulldog." he later said it was a joke but refused to apologize. imagine for a moment if heston had said that about lee or some other prominent black person. he wouldn't have of course because he had more class in his little finger -- trigger finger if you prefer -- than lee has in his entire undersized body. you may also be surprised to know that heston supported and marched with mlk (see this link: http://caveatbettor.blogspot.com/2008/04/charlton-heston-martin-luther-king-jr.html), something they don't like to mention in black studies classes.

i detected a glimmer of hope for you in your post, but only a glimmer. otherwise i wouldn't waste my time responding. i suggest the following to you in all sincerity: 1. when considering racial issues, or anything else for that matter, try going outside the box and not relying only on what you have been taught in school or taught by your parents and friends. 2. get (some of) your news and historical information from sources other than the mainstream media (npr and pbs offer some wonderful programs but are hopelessly biased and pc) 3. a book that addresses some of the racial issues discussed here is 'the ten things you can't say in america' by larry elder (a black man). can get it for 1 cent at amazon.

good luck and keep an open mind to all ideas.

reply

But you are implying simply because people make comments on certain activities there is something wrong with that. Now I believe that Charleton Heston was wrong in support of the NRA. But there are many things that I believed Heston was right about. Such as him being big supporter of civil rights.

It doesn't make a person bad if they disagree vocally about something no matter if it is politically correct or not. But by no means do I advocate shooting Mr Heston, and only extremest would. See the problem with people like you is that you take extremist remarks and act like they speak for all of us who felt Heston was mislead with his support of the NRA. Or you take one radical remark a person states about one issue and uses that statement against them for every single thing they believe and brand them as a extremist or being politically correct, which BTW is not a bad thing IMO if it is a good stance. That is unfair and wrong. People will state Al Sharpton is a extremist simply because of one incident and some pro black stances he has taken, which BTW I agreed with. But when he ran for President even the Republicans he ran against and debated loved and respected him.

For example I do not believe that those anti choice nuts who block women from having abortions or blowing up clinics speaks for the average anti choice person. And just because Heston made some extremist statements about guns does not mean he is a extremist about other issues. I would hope you would feel the same way about people you may disagree with sometimes. All I ask is people such as yourself turn down the heat when you are speaking about people who might disagree with a position you believe it. That's all.
But when it comes to issues like a Pro slavery or antisemitic stance in a movie or in life I do believe vigilance is in order.

reply

Whatever you want to say about Heston in later life,
can never take away from him that he was a huge supporter
of civil rights in the fifties and sixties. He was a
major force behind the 1963 March on Washington, when
many "celebrities" shied away from being front-and-center
in this arena.

He also backed Peckinpah against the studio during the
making of Major Dundee. Even gave up part of his salary,
which permitted Peckinpah to shoot extra material. And
he was outspoken in condemning the studio for taking
the film away from Peckinpah in post-production.

This is in no way to defend his stance on the NRA and
assault weapons. Ugh ...

But he was a complicated and, in his personal and
professional life, a very gracious man.

reply

I agree completely. I find most people if they have half a brain cannot be judged because of one stance they take. Most of us are complex so I cannot condemn the whole person if they take one stance I am not crazy about. Unless they are some type of bigot.

reply

"All I ask is people such as yourself turn down the heat..."

my heater is pretty low. in fact i have to check the pilot light from time to time to make sure it's on. on the other hand, take a look at just the title of the original post in this thread (above) which you have been writing in support of, and which i strongly disagree with.

"See the problem with people like you is that you take extremist remarks and act like they speak for all of us..."

"people like you", "people such as yourself"? by making statements like that you contradict the very point you are trying to make. how do you like it when someone says "you people" and lumps all black people together? i agree with your premise -- before you contradicted yourself -- that people are complex and shouldn't be judged by one quote or opinion and lumped in with others who may be extremists. that's basically what i meant earlier by not "throwing out the baby with the bath water." you've assumed i have a particular political orientation based on my comments about this movie and about spike lee, and you would probably be wrong. my opinion of spike lee is based on much more than one comment or opinion. i still acknowledge his talent in spite of his racism, and i liked "malcolm x" for the most part.

i personally abhor abortions but believe the final choice has to be the woman's. i also, as heston did, support the rights of gun owners within reason (i currently don't require my own personal howitzer, but who knows what the future may bring. the more someone wants to take my guns away, the more suspicious i am of their motives, and the more adamant about my position. a few history lessons will make any reasonable person feel that way. the same thing may have happened to mr. heston.) these opinions do not make me a "baby killer" or a "gun nut." enjoying "santa fe trail" for what it is, without any guilt, and wanting to ensure that it remains available, certainly does not make me pro-slavery or even "racially insensitive." it makes me a lover of freedom. something few of the negative posters here seem to have an understanding of.

i have now spent more time replying to posts about this damn movie than the original screenwriters probably did when writing it. and they were PAID!




reply

herc_takes_five wrote: "just to give you one of many examples re: mr. lee, he said of actor charlton heston, apparently unhappy with his nra involvement, "shoot him with a .44 bulldog." he later said it was a joke but refused to apologize. imagine for a moment if heston had said that about lee or some other prominent black person. he wouldn't have of course because he had more class in his little finger -- trigger finger if you prefer -- than lee has in his entire undersized body. you may also be surprised to know that heston supported and marched with mlk (see this link: http://caveatbettor.blogspot.com/2008/04/charlton-heston-martin-luther-king-jr.html), something they don't like to mention in black studies classes."

Spike Lee might also be interested in learning that the NRA was promoting the armed self-defense of freedmen in the Reconstruction era and afterward, when the Southern Democrats and the Klan was trying to prevent those freedmen from voting and from defending themselves against lynch mobs.

Every black man and woman in America ought to join the NRA, because the NRA is opposed to letting any American be a helpless victim of crime.

reply

You are so right.
And it was kinda boring too.

reply