Does Murray rape Peggy?


Does Murray rape Peggy in that scene where he appears to force himself on her against her wishes?

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I don't think he would have raped her, I think that would have probably been too much for a 1940 film, although you can't exactly tell as it cuts off. Peggy and Murray seemed to be fine still working together after that though. He was probably just trying it with her. Come to think of it, that scene doesn't really have much relevance, as you don't see him do anything like that again in the film.

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I think he just forces himself on her for a big kiss or something nasty like that.

You want to investigate my courage? Do you? Find out! Find out!

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Yes, he does rape her. They couldn't and didn't show it back then.

But, it's more a "If you're going to work with me, you'll take it and like it."

She was hungry for success, so she did what she felt she had to.

If you remember later in the movie she tells him to never touch her again.

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yes, i think he does. it's really difficult to show anything approaching rape with the hollywood code in place, but the clues are:
1. the camera lingers on her thrown shoe as she repeats "murray, don't!"
2. the next time we see her it's in their shared dressing room and she is in her slip. she then puts on a shirt to answer the door. the implied intimacy says a lot.

not much to go on, but enough if you look. it was forced sex, something to which she submitted in order to get ahead, shown as a difficult choice for a desperate woman.

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I think he rapes her as well and tonydodge you do make some really good points. Somehow, out all of the scenes in this movie, this one is the most harrowing, because you couldn't show rape on the screen during that time and just having the camera on her shoe and she's screaming is a little disturbing.

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Yes, very disturbing.
Richard Shickle,on the commentary to the DVD, says that it is an ambiguous scene, but it appears that he did rape her. Under the Hayes Code, at this time, rape could not be shown or mentioned, so only through symbolism like the isolated shoe, and the unanswered cry of "Please, Murray, Don't" could something like this be suggested.

In the following scene,Peggy greets Danny more as a rescuer than an old friend and she tells Murray, angrily, "Don't you ever put your hands on me again." This implies that he did put his hands on her before.

Anthony Quinn also plays in a similarly bowdlerized scene in "La Strada."

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Yes and they make it as obvious as possible for a movie made in 1940. Her show lying in the corner, and her pleading for him to let go of her. Yes he raped her. That's probably the reason she let him slap her around and generally be abusive to her

Darling, I am trouble of the most spectacular kind!

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Pretty much...

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[deleted]

Of course he raped her. Next to actually showing the rape, they couldn't have made it more obvious.

There's a similar scene 15 years later in "Love Me Or Leave Me", only this time it was Jimmy Cagney doing it to Doris Day.

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At that point in the movie I was certain the fade out meant he raped her. However, as the story progressed, I had a change of heart. Clearly started resisting his advances but then I think she gave in willingly. Kicking off her shoe was symbolic of her letting her guard down; getting comfortable in his company.

I don't think they did anything more than what she would do with Danny; the hesitation was doing them with Murray especially after she told Danny she was his girl. In her mind she was finally going in the direction she wanted. They just got a contract to dance. She wasn't going to risk it by making him angry. He had all the control and all the money would be going to him; she had to keep him happy. Early on Danny was warned it was ambition, not Murray, that threatened their relationship.

1. This movie was made while the code was in effect. If Murray had raped Peggy, there would have been a consequence. That's how it worked back then. Tampering with the boxing match and causing Danny's blindness got one guy killed. Imagine what would have happened to a rapist.

2. If Murray had raped her and she stayed, continuing to dance with him as if nothing happened, it would, in my opinion, mean she consented after the fact. That means it would not have been the only time. If that were the case, her reaction to Danny's unexpected arrival at her dressing room door would have been different. She would have felt shame for not being 'pure'; this was 1940. Instead she was happy to see him and acted as if nothing had changed.

3. If he was having or had at any point had sex with Peggy for whatever reason, Murray would not have passed up the opportunity to throw it in Danny's face. There were many ways to communicate that information to him without saying it in so many words. He could, for instance, have put his hands on her in a possessive way. She would not have been able to deny it. Naturally, Danny probably would have gone after him but I don't think Murray could have resisted.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

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Very good points, especially about the code and consequences.

Now I think that he might have acted a bit inappropriately with her (maybe kissed her without her consent), but it didn't lead to more than that.

I never got the impression that she wanted this from him, though.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen

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He raped continually throughout their relationship. I just finished the book.

In the book, Murray gets Peggy pregnant. Since he keeps most of the money, and she doesn't want to be dropped from the act, she calls the draft board. Murray is arrested and sent off to war. But, she gets enough of the salary to get an abortion. (This book was written in 1934 or 36)

While she's recovering from the abortion, she longs for Danny. Of course Danny comes running. She tells him she had her appendix removed. As time passes, she feels better, Danny is planning on them getting married. But, she gets the dancing bug again and skips out on him.

Murray returns from war still able to dance. But, he sucked in gas and ruined his lungs. He plans on a come back, but doesn't survive the lung ailment. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

In the movie, Peggy goes to Danny at the newsstand. In the book, Danny waits. But, she never comes. His brother in the book is a playwright. His first play is a success and his manager takes him to a downtown restaurant. Peggy is a second rate acrobat performing there. She approaches him and asks him to write material for her, so she can become the star she dreams of. He basically tells her to go screw herself.

The book is much darker than the movie. One of it's main characters kills his father, step-mother, and half-brother for their land in the Bronx. He gets a happy ending.

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Wow!

I think I'd like to read that book. Is it also called City for Conquest?

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen

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Yes. It's kind of hard to find. It took years for me to get it on ebay for a decent price. It is worth it. You'll notice some of the names, and not others.

BTW: Danny is Joey, and Sheridan's role is Bella.

It really paints a beautiful and disturbing portrait of NYC.

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