MovieChat Forums > The Old Maid (1939) Discussion > Whom Clem loved--was Charlotte right?

Whom Clem loved--was Charlotte right?

posted 16 years ago by roseytrebles
16 replies | jump to latest

Do you think that Charlotte was right when she told Delia at the end that Clem truly loved Delia and Tina truly loved Delia, and so they both ended up belonging to her? I'm sure there was some bitterness involved in that and obviously I don't think that it's fair the way things played out with Tina--and I wouldn't say that Tina belonged only to Delia in the long run. But Clem is a much murkier matter, I feel...he definitely loved Delia before Charlotte, and even though Delia made a poor and spiteful decision, she always went on loving him too. I'm sure that Clem would have married Charlotte, and had geniune feelings for her, but do you think that there could still be some justice in what Charlotte said?

I'm pretty torn about it myself...you can't deny that Tina does love Delia very much, and you can't deny that Clem did too--at least at one point. I'm not quite ready to look at Delia as a villain here because I think she does some truly kind things and even her most horrible behavior is pretty understandable; she's definitely weaker than Charlotte, but the world is full of weak people. I think Charlotte says at one point that Clem "hadn't quite broken his heart" over Delia, which is a really interesting and ambiguous statement. It's a shame that we couldn't see more about Clem, since he more or less caused everything that happened in this movie.

[–] charliebuenfil 16 years ago

I am very glad you started this great thread. I love The Old Maid. Its probably my favorite Bette Davis movie. I love the DVD, but I kinda wish it had a commentary on it. I would have loved it if actress Jane Bryan, who is still alive to my best knowledge, would have done a commentary or at least done a feature on this movie.

Anyways, going back to the thread, this is something i have silently thought about. I think that Clem loved Delia, but he was not totally devastated. Now, this doesn't mean that he loved Charlotte either. I think his character reflects something that still happens today. He was just a man and as a man, he found in Charlotte a good lay and although I know he respected her, i dont think he really planned anything with her had he lived.

Charlotte was doomed from the start and she brought it all onto herself and she is the one to be blamed, but that is another subject i will analyze later

So, in retrospect, Clem did love Delia more than he ever could Charlotte, but he didnt die IN love with her. By that stage he had long forgotten her. We will never know for sure if he could fall in love with charlotte in the future, but from what we saw at first, he didnt seem terribly interested in her.

The Male Ego is Elephantine to Begin With

[–] roseytrebles 16 years ago

Yeah, I think you're totally right. This sort of love triangle is really so familiar, it seems to me...you've got one couple who are passionate about each other, but then who break up for some stupid reason, and then this third party who's just hopelessly devoted to one of them and unwilling to let go because the other person doesn't really feel the same.

It's a poignant story but I always kind of wish that the third wheel would just let it go already and find someone else. I mean doesn't everyone deserve to be in a two-way relationship? It's pretty sad to believe the alternative, that that some people are just doomed to be unloved, but I guess it could be. I really like Charlotte in this movie though--but still. I kind of always feel that way.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Devans00 16 years ago

The only thing Charlotte was guilty of was having a crush on Clem.

For Clem to take advantage of the infatuation to get some nookie before heading off to war reflects badly on him. Especially when you consider the scene at the train station. When he could barely be bothered with Charlotte while Delia was around. Even though he had to know what a big deal having sex with an unmarried girl meant in their social circle.

For Charlotte to throw Clem away then use the devastate her own cousin's life because of jealousy was totally reflects badly on her, too. In my eye, taking in her cousin and Tina didn't quite make up for it. Mainly because I think she wouldn't have bothered if her husband survived his accident. Delia was content to screw up Charlotte's marriage and leave her to deal with the mess until she was lonely after her husband died. That doesn't make Delia sympathetic in my eyes.

Charlotte was forced into the role of the Old Maid and strict Aunt because of the limited social outlets for someone of her situation at the time. To me, she was the most sympathetic character in the whole movie. I felt like she was taken advantage of by Clem who used her crush and naivete for his benefit. I felt like her cousin Delia took advantage of Charlotte being a single mother in the mid 1800s to block her marriage and play the mother figure in Tina's life. To her credit, at least Delia forced bratty, spoiled Tina to be respectful to Charlotte whether she liked it or not. Plus, she could have made Charlotte's life even more unbearable if she tried.

No two persons ever watch the same movie.

[–] wowcharlie3 15 years ago

Clem was a horndog.

[–] HarlowMGM 13 years ago

For Clem to take advantage of the infatuation to get some nookie before heading off to war reflects badly on him. Especially when you consider the scene at the train station. When he could barely be bothered with Charlotte while Delia was around. Even though he had to know what a big deal having sex with an unmarried girl meant in their social circle.

I got a good laugh out of your comment about Clem and it's absolutely true especially when you consider this was the 18th century and men just did not sleep with "nice" girls back then. It was expected that if they could not wait until marriage to bump privates then they would go to the local whorehouse and relieve themselves of their urges there but not to deflower a young "good" woman of virtue! So definitely Clem was a piece of sh-t when it comes to his actions with Charlotte. Clem was really not worthy of either woman IMO, he went off and abandoned Delia then was p.o.'d because she dared to find a new love after two years of apparently little or no contac, even letters. He doesn't seem so in love with Delia either although clearly he is sexually attracted to her whereas Charlotte is just a sweet girl he amuses himself with.

For Charlotte to throw Clem away then use the devastate her own cousin's life because of jealousy was totally reflects badly on her, too. In my eye, taking in her cousin and Tina didn't quite make up for it. Mainly because I think she wouldn't have bothered if her husband survived his accident. Delia was content to screw up Charlotte's marriage and leave her to deal with the mess until she was lonely after her husband died. That doesn't make Delia sympathetic in my eyes.

You meant to say Delia, of course, not Charlotte in this first sentence. I definitely agree here, too. Delia is a pretty selfish, spiteful character who doesn't want her beau-less cousin to even have the man she threw away even if he is dead! Delia did a truly evil thing to make up that sick story so that Charlotte's fiancee wouldn't marry her. She did it not to protect him in any way but to punish Charlotte for having slept with the man she loved albeit abandoned. And then the real reason for Delia inviting Charlotte and Tina into her home was to get Tina as a faux daughter, not out of any concern or love for Charlotte. Only in the ending does Delia really show any humanity toward Charlotte.

I haven't read the novel but I did hear the radio adaption starring the original Broadway stars Helen Menken (in Bette's role) and Judith Anderson and it seems in that edition Delia is less consciously spiteful of what she is doing and merely a rigid society woman who believes in society's rules although she clearly hasn't gotten over Clem (who was a little more sympathetic and more loving toward Charlotte in the play) and only at the end does Delia realize how badly she has hurt Charlotte whereas in the movie Delia is rather deliberate about it all.

Charlotte was forced into the role of the Old Maid and strict Aunt because of the limited social outlets for someone of her situation at the time. To me, she was the most sympathetic character in the whole movie.

It's a absolutely true Charlotte is the one sympathetic character in the film (either than perhaps the doctor and housemaid Dora but then they are minor characters). In the play-radio adaption the young Charlotte however comes across as much wilder, very much an earlier rendition of Tina whereas in the movie this Charlotte is a sweet naive girl whose crush on a rake of a man is cruelly used by him and ultimately by her cousin.

[–] Devans00 13 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Harlowgold. I like to read the insightful things you have to say.

For Charlotte to throw Clem away then use the devastate her own cousin's life because of jealousy was totally reflects badly on her, too.

Yes, I did mean Delia here. In fact, I should rewrite the whole sentence. Looks like my thoughts were going five different directions.

Delia threw Clem, a man who adored her, away like a used Kleenex. Then cruelly devastated her cousin's life. Full of pettiness and jealousy that totally reflects badly on her.

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It's interesting to read the differences between the novel, play-radio adaption and movie versions of the story. Each format needs to adjust content to fit the media, so I like hearing about the different tweaks each version needs. The movie version always seems the most dramatic, with the biggest contrasts (less subtlety, more shallow) and fastest moving story of the three forms.

The original 1925 novel title was The Mother's Recompense. That should tell you a lot about how things got watered down through the various entertainment formats: novel, play, radio, film.

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By today's judgment, we can certainly say Clem wasn't good enough for Delia or Charlotte. Back when the movie took place, I'm sure Clem was considered an amazing catch. Of course he deserves the opportunity to deflower a virgin he barely paid attention to for many years. He's going to be a war hero soon. Plus he can just ignore her when he returns from the Fight. No one would seriously expect him to do the right thing by such a loose woman.

If Charlotte's pregnancy or details about how she dared expressed her sexuality outside the rules were generally known, no doubt she'd have been ostracized from her social circle. Banished as a whore along with her worthless bastard. No wonder she bent over backwards with Delia to make sure her daughter had all the advantages and benefits of her own upper class upbringing.

It's interesting how the times can cause people to have different interpretations of the same event. You mention in the play version, "Delia [doesn't] realize how badly she has hurt Charlotte". I bet even in Edith Wharton's novel version, Delia is conscious of her actions on Charlotte. Delia probably saw herself as an upholder of the social order. Making sure Charlotte is properly punished for crush on her Clem. Perhaps the movie makers purposely played up that point since it may not be immediately obvious. They got the chance to show how supposedly bad girl Charlotte long suffered and sacrificed for her child. While proper good girl, wife and widow Delia was really meanspirited and mainly concerned with herself until the end.

No two persons ever watch the same movie.

[–] boxerrebellion 7 years ago

HarlowMGM,
I just wanted to say how much I appreciated how gracefully and without malice you corrected the minor mistake made by the previous commenter. So many times on IMdB boards someone would have jumped snidely.

[–] HarlowMGM 7 years ago

Thank you for comments. I myself have had my head bitten off for making a minor error in a post so I would never do that to someone else. I'm no angel but I can never understand why some people get so belligerent or nasty over little things on IMDb.

[–] cookiela2001 13 years ago

<< When he could barely be bothered with Charlotte while Delia was around. Even though he had to know what a big deal having sex with an unmarried girl meant in their social circle. >>

This train station scene is so weird...and unrealistic.

Clem and Delia act like 2 different people from how we saw them before. (I guess they both got a great night's sleep?) Then Clem totally ignores Charlotte, who he's just slept with, but suddenly when he remembers she's there he says "they have so much to talk about" (meaning a future together.)

This is just not a very well written scene.

But basically, I don't get the feeling Clem loved Charlotte. She threw heself at him and he felt affection for her, but I don't think he was suddenly IN LOVE.

Also, I think we're dumping on Clem a bit to call him a total cad, and to say he took advantage of Chyarlotte. She was infatuated with him and was probably the one who instigated the sex. I'm sure she enjoyed it very much! What about the fact that she's taking advantage of him on the rebound, when he's just been dumped by his true love?

[–] TheManInOil 15 years ago

Sure, Clem would have married Charlotte, but he'd always really be in love with Delia, just as Charlotte would have married Joe but would always love Clem. It would always have been a source of pain for Charlotte knowing she was second best in his estimation.

"Lots of FAMOUS people can't read!"

[–] Regina_Giddens 14 years ago

He loved Delia. He took advantage of her Charlotte's love for him to, as someone said 'get a little nookie' before leaving town and perhaps even to get revenge on Delia.

That was the impression I got. He wasn't acting maliciously or anything, but it was thoughtless.

He might still have married her after the war though. I'm not saying he didn't like her as a person, he just wasn't in love with her the way he was with Delia.

But you are, Blanche. You are in that chair!

[–] cruzlexie 13 years ago

I feel that Clem loved Delia and was heartbroken when she married someone else, that said I don't feel that Clem took Charlotte on the side for the mere use of having sex before he left to war, I think he was so heartbroken and took the first comfort that was given to him, namely Charlotte and it got out of hand. I feel that Clem would have married her and perhaps he could have grown into love with her seeing as how Delia was with someone else.

[–] rway-1 11 years ago

Many here think Clem would have married Charlotte and I share that view. But wouldn't it be messy if Clem survived the war, marry Charlotte, then shortly thereafter the love of his life, Delia, is now suddenly widowed. These people didn't stand a chance either way. Fate was out to get them regardless.

[–] angelexposed 13 years ago

I feel that Clem had loved Delia and only Delia. His stand with Charlotte I think was something that occurred out of his feeling low. For all we know it could also be that he did what he did out of spite and hoped that Delia would find out about the fling and be as devastated as he was by her marrying Jim Rolston.

It was likely he already thought he might die in the war (as many men knew they would) and the fling with Charlotte was also going to be that 'last chance' thing that many men have before they go off to wars they expect to lose or die in.

We may never know for certain, but I do feel that his love was Delia and that was obvious from the moment Delia showed up at the station for his departure and he overlooked Charlotte. Charlotte ceased to exist when Delia was in the room.

Had Clem survived the war, I doubt he would have done the "honorable thing" by marrying Charlotte either. Upon his return, he would learn Charlotte had already had their child (he was probably never aware of this as I doubt Charlotte would have written him to advise him of the fact). Can you imagine him to return to learn of a child? One thing I can gather would cross his mind is 'is this child mine?'. Certainly, after the fact she'd been intimate with HIM out of wedlock (in days when such things weren't the norm) I could see him questioning whether she might have also gone with other men, having been such an easy conquest.

It's one of those movies that makes you think.

[–] kenny-164 10 years ago

As an aside, Clem went off to war at the very beginning of the Civil War. I actually do not think many, probalbly hardly any did, think they were likely to get killed. Both sides at the beginning did not expect it would drag out for long.

Imo Clem did not really take advantage of Charlotte in any overtly conscious, and unseemly, way. She offered herself and I think he had a certain limited, budding?, love for her. He was hurting because of Delia, and a certain class consciousness of the materialist purpose of her marriage. That went into to it, too.