MovieChat Forums > Gone with the Wind (1940) Discussion > Sure, it's racist ... but it's ultra fem...

Sure, it's racist ... but it's ultra feminist too


Especially for its time. Let's not forget: before Ripley, before Sarah O' Connor there was Scarlet O' Hara -- the baddest bitch of them all.

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Scarlett wasn't feminist, not really. She didn't give a rat's ass about women's legal rights or women's welfare or well, anyone but herself.

She was just someone who didn't think the restrictions placed on women should apply to HER! She wouldn't dream of thinking about the big picture or relationships between the sexes in general (or races), she just wanted what she wanted and wouldn't let expectations of ladylike behavior slow her down.

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Fiddle-dee-dee!

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It's probably a bit of a stretch to call Scarlett a feminist. Then again, it's probably straining credulity to call Ripley or Sarah feminists too. What these women had in common was that they pulled themselves up and survived in a man's world. None of them were an Emma Goldman but they were emblematic of the many things people like Emma stood for -- like asserting yourself when everyone else wants you to embrace the status quo and remain in the background, with no agency, always dependent on men.

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Which Sarah? Sarah Connor?

The thing is, Scarlett never really questioned the idea that women should always be dainty and ladylike and dependent on men, she thought that was the way things ought to be and it wasn't her fault if the men had let her down and she had to do whatever she could to earn a living and save the family plantation! Like I said, she never really thought about these things, in the book we see much of what's in her mind, and the fact is that while she's going out and picking cotton and running lumber mills with convict labor and ignoring all her society's rules for women, she never questioned the idea that women should be Great Ladies. It was just circumstances preventing her from being submissive and dependent and ladylike, and occasionally she even felt guilty about her failure to be what she thought a woman should be. And then she went out and shot a union soldier in the face or something.

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Sorry, I should of said Sarah Connor.

She's a strong, independent woman who managed to save herself and her folks from starvation, the Yanks, Carpetbaggers and much more. She had "gumption" -- as her creator Margaret Mitchell put it -- and while she may not be a paragon of feminism she certainly is of survival. She's vain, mean, conniving, tough-as-nails -- all traits that keep her alive. And the ability to survive is certainly something feminists, non-feminists -- heck, everyone -- can admire.

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You understand her perfectly!

But yeah, not every tough woman is a feminist, and Scarlett definitely isn't. Margaret Mitchell... maybe. Sort of.

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"The usual masculine disillusionment is discovering that a woman has a brain." - Margaret Mitchell

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Survival by any means necessary at the expense of your fellow humans is generally called Psychopathy.

If you want to elevate to a virtue an antisocial mental illness generally shared by the most hardened criminals society has ever produced, knock yourself out.

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Sociopathy. Unfortunately it's a characteristic commonly found amongst those in business and politics, and is in general admired by many.

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in the book we see much of what's in her mind, and the fact is that while she's going out and picking cotton and running lumber mills with convict labor and ignoring all her society's rules for women, she never questioned the idea that women should be Great Ladies. It was just circumstances preventing her from being submissive and dependent and ladylike, and occasionally she even felt guilty about her failure to be what she thought a woman should be. And then she went out and shot a union soldier in the face or something.


That's not entirely true. Before the war, Scarlett was full of criticism for Pre-war Southern society, particularly with how women were expected to behave in order to catch a husband and always being encouraged to hide how their intelligence and letting their husbands take credit for all their plantation and household management, in order not to appear "unladylike."

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Sure, she was critical about some of the things ladies were expected to do, such as pretending to have no appetite at parties, but all her criticisms were comparatively small. She may have questioned the methods used to get a well-off husband, but never the necessity.

And she never did question the idea that women really ought to be a Great Lady like her mother, even if she actually spent her life doing everything great ladies were forbidden to do. She never really thought that issue out.

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Scarlett is a very strong woman (within a novel indeed, cause she isnt a real person). And that what counts. Not being a queer feminist and therefor destroying everything that real strong women fought for.

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What's wrong with being part of the LGBTQ community? None those women are any less the women that they are than their heterosexual counterparts. That's nonsense.

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I have no problem with "converted" women. As less as with "converted" men. A friend is one. But my problem start when "converted" women think that they could use woman shower and small girls (by sex) feel awkward with humans, which were once men, are being in the same shower room. Or when queer feminists state that the gender gap isnt a thing, cause there is no thing such "man" and "woman". Thats horrible and destroys everything women fight for during the last century!

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.... I'm not even going to bother making sense out of any of that nonsense, especially whatever the hell "converts" are or that you think they are... Enjoy your warped homophobic existence.

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Im using terms I prefer. And indeed you dont understand the danger of queer feminism for women. Cause you dont care for anything beside your little mindset.

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So in other words, she was a typical woman.

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Scarlett was a sociopath. Run down the check list.

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In what way is it racist? This brother would like to know..

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What would you call a society that enslaves black people?

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You're changing the subject...

My question is: in what way is GWTW racist?

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"GWTW" glorifies the South and ignores the evils of slavery completely. If it isn't racist it's laughably inaccurate. Either way, it's deeply flawed.

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How did it glorify the South? Sure, the scenery was beautiful. The manners of the South's elite were impressive. But, we also saw the Southern gentlemen cockily declaring they could beat the Yankees and then have them drag themselves back home badly defeated with their tails dragging between their legs. So much for the Southern way of life..

But why should GWTW tackle the evils of slavery? Because the story took place when the sin of slavery existed in America? By 1939 anyone with a heart and mind knew slavery was evil and that America was nearly torn in two with hundreds of thousands dead. If this was a movie *about* slavery and didn't show the evilness of it, you'd have a great point. It wasn't however. We only see a few slaves who were well treated. But to suggest that these two families couldn't possibly treat their slaves benevolently because they are white is in fact racist.

Native Americans were also driven off their land and killed during this time. Should Gone With The Wind have addressed this as well?

1939 was not a time of fake platitudes. GWTW was a powerful story about two families and a charming scoundrel that takes place before, during, and after the Civil War. It was most definitely NOT a story about slavery.

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Heh heh, awesome post.

I've definitely thought about this before: Are we just not allowed to tell stories set in the Old South that don't revolve around slavery? And must every scene involving slaves be of some guy whipping the shit out of them?

While slavery is a wretched institution, I don't think modern movies show us an accurate portrayal of it. It seems inevitable that some masters treated their slaves decently, and that the day-to-day affairs of a plantation didn't involve white folks constantly going around and terrorizing their slaves for the hell of it. Who would even have the energy for that?

The greatest "sin" a film could commit today is showing plantation owners as actual human beings.

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So every documentation about the slavery at the 18th century in the USA is therefor racist :) ? You are really dumb :) .

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No, just the ones that endorse slavery.

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"Endorse" slavery? Elaborate please.

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"Sociology for the South" by George Fitzhugh
"Cannibals All" by George Fitzhugh
"The Negro's Place in Nature" by James Hunt
"Nellie Norton: or, Southern Slavery and the Bible. A Scriptural Refutation of the Principal Arguments upon which the Abolitionists Rely. A Vindication of Southern Slavery from the Old and New Testaments" by Rev. Ebenezer W. Warren
"A Pro Slavery Letter" by S. Trott
"The Right of American Slavery" by T.W. Hoit

Some anti-"Uncle Tom's Cabin" literature

"White Acre vs Black Acre" by William M. Burwell
"The North and the South; or, Slavery and its Contrasts" by Caroline Rush
"The Black Gauntlet: A Tale of Plantation Life in South Carolina" by Mary Howard Schoolcraft

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And these have what to do with Gone With The Wind?

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They have to do with the racist culture Margaret Mitchell laments in "GWTW."

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It was the 1930s and for that time frame the movie was extremely progressive. It even meant that the first black actor got an OSCAR! And now you will destroy that first OSCAR for a black person. So you are a way worse racist then anyoneon connected to the movie.

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hmm so Africa is racist?

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I'm not sure I follow ...

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well most of the people sold to the US during slavery were enslaved by Africans..the US was primarily a purchaser of slaves not really known for its active missions into Africa to enslave.

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well most of the people sold to the US during slavery were enslaved by Africans


Which does not absolve the end "purchasers" of these humans from responsibility. It makes no difference how these humans ended up for sale, the fact is that if there was no demand, there'd be no supply. Just because there's a supply doesn't mean you could avail yourself to the "product" without being wrong.

However, your primary point is correct. Whites have/had no monopoly on enslaving blacks. Even today, there are millions of people enslaved around the world by peoples of all color. It's not a racial issue, it's a moral one.

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Which does not absolve the end "purchasers" of these humans from responsibility. It makes no difference how these humans ended up for sale, the fact is that if there was no demand, there'd be no supply.


It in no way absolves purchasers. Just was pointing out his narrow view in his response. People like to talk slavery but rarely want to acknowledge the inconvenient bits.

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Its not racist, its just doesn't represent the south accurately..which as a fictional film no one should expect. Its a romanticized version of the south which when applied to most other periods is generally an accepted thing. It was released nearly 80 years ago judging it as if it was made last year is more the problem with it than the film itself is.

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the thing is, lots of films were racist BY THEIR TIME, this is one of them and Breakfast At Tiffany's. I also don't think they are that great films.

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So was the film created to be racist? Intentionally produced to be discriminatory, prejudiced or antagonistic towards African Americans, this was that the purpose of the film? From what i have read and the parts that were changed during production I am thinking that was not its purpose.

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it doesn't matter, a film like In This Our Life, which is from the time, tackles the subject of racism so it is not true that it was just "the time", even back then people questioned inequality and racist stereotypes so I think that Gone is a racist film even by its own time's standard. Same with Apocalypse, Now and its total unnecessary animal abuse. These films need to be condemned.

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It does matter, because the intention is very important. Its why the word racist has so little meaning now because its tossed around for everything. Racism requires a certain level of belief and intent. If those are not present than the worst it should be considered is insensitive and/or ignorant. Otherwise you have levels of racism and it reduces its overall seriousness.

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Don't agree with that at all, the belief and intent is there in Gone With The Wind and Breakfast At Tiffany's with the happy slave and the dumb asian. I don't particularly care either way, I'm simply stating that the films are racist and there are far better movies out there to obsess over that AREN'T racist.

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SO you believe the intention of GWTW was to create a film that is discriminatory, prejudiced or antagonistic towards African Americans? Thus making it racist, and not a film that has insensitive parts but overall was just a romanticized film of the old south and entirely fictional?

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"Here in this pretty world gallantry took its last bow."

LOL

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regardless of the intentions, the film is racist. The line needs to be drawn somewhere and art needs to be able to sustain all scrutiny, it can't just be "of its time".

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regardless of the intentions, the film is racist.


How would you change the movie so that it wouldn't be racist?

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I don't know lol, maybe change the slave character? I don't know. Like I said, other films of the time were not racist, like In This Our Life.

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I don't know either, but if it's racist, there must be some way to fix or re-edit the film to correct it. No ideas?

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I guess eliminating the mammy? re editing would also be a problem, I don't think an artwork should be altered, just its problems be acknowledge, probably even not promote it anymore, like Apocalypse, Now, sorry but the film is cruel to animals and nature, none of that should have been allowed.

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What's wrong with the mammy character?

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Nothing,
It's obviously another pathetic troll seeking for attention. If a movie like GWTW offends you to the point that you call it racist, maybe you should simply stay home because the real world is not for you.

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you are full of rocks, i don't think you have a liking towards history either

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Its not racist, its just doesn't represent the south accurately..


It doesn't represent *all* of the old south accurately, but should it? Must it? This isn't a documentary; it's a story about two families before, during, and after the civil war - a very small slice of the old south.

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It does not have too, its a work of fiction.

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She was a strong woman. Self motivated. Independent. Beautiful. Accomplished. And loved men.

Totally opposite of the modern left wing feminist movement.



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It's not racist. There are smart black characters, and there are one or two stupid black characters (for example, Butterfly McQueen). I suppose they'd all have to be scholars for you not to claim the movie is racist.

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Scarlett is a sociopath.

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Yep, definitely...

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No, she's just an asshole.

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Yes, Scarlett is a sociopath and is every reason why you don't let a woman in charge of something, I believe from the perspective of that time period. Butler was a great guy that tried everything and end he just didn't care anymore. She wore him out.

She wasn't feminist but rather why you should never be a feminist.

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There is nothing feminist about a movie in which a husband rapes the female character and she wakes up the next morning smiling, or says that the best way to survive in life is to become a gold digger.

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