MovieChat Forums > Shall We Dance (1937) Discussion > What do you make of this line?

What do you make of this line?


Jerome Cowan, who plays Ginger Rogers' manager, tells Ginger he was planning on taking her and her fiance to an engagement dinner. Ginger replies "It's nice of you to think of Joe and me" to which Jerome says "Oh, I'm always thinking about Joe." Ginger reacts with a wry smile as the picture fades and the scene ends.

This certainly sounds like an overt gay reference in an era where you didn't see that very often. What do you think?



"I will rise from the ashes like a Tuscon!"

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I thought that exact same thing too! But maybe it was sarcasm or a way to imply that he's thinking of how to keep Joe away from Linda. His 'always thinking' of a plan to make Joe call off their engagment so that she can continue show business.

Just an idea.

Other Astaire-Rogers movies do include subtle gay jokes, however, such as in "Top Hat": "I am no man, I am Beddini!" and "The Gay Divorcee": "Your wife is save with Tonetti; he prefers spaghetti!"

~Nat

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I think you are seeing the "subtle" gay jokes through too modern a filter. "Beddini" is affirming his opinion that he is more exceptional than any common man, and "Tonetti" is presented throughout the film as being somewhat of a simpleton in his interests. I'm not saying that the writers might not have offered these lines up as double entrendes (nor am I saying that they did,) but audiences of the day would have taken the comments at face value.

Or maybe I'm wrong...who knows? Just sharing my first reaction to your statement.

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I agree with you about Beddini, but I think that Tonetti was referring to his Italian wife.

As silly and specious as these jokes seem today (being black I've heard much, much worse in old movies), it was the '30s. And after all, didn't Mussolini have these movies banned for offensive Italian portrayals?



"Hot sun, cool breeze, white horse on the sea, and a big shot of vitamin B in me!"

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Other Astaire-Rogers movies do include subtle gay jokes, however, such as in "Top Hat": "I am no man, I am Beddini!" and "The Gay Divorcee": "Your wife is save with Tonetti; he prefers spaghetti!"
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If you're looking for not-so-subtle hints about Tonetti in _The Gay Divorcee_, you'd do better to consider Cyril Glossop's (Ginger Rogers's husband) refusal to believe that "that hairdresser" is anything other than a paid co-respondent.

--Balok

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there's also a line about chossing a man with a LONG yacht....... hmmmm

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I always thought it was because he didn't like Jim and was trying to figure out ways to keep Linda from marrying him.

Have a nice day, ya'll!!

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I don't think there was anything meant by it. The line was completely sarcastic.

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I think he was being sarcastic. Not everything like that is a reference to being gay.

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Wow. There are a lot of Naive people. Yes, there is a gay subtext. And yes it was intentional.

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Well, aren't you glad we can't all be as perceptive as you? If we were you'd be average.

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I just watched the scene because of all the discussion and I didn't pick up on anything other than sarcasm. This guy is ruining his life. He had a good thing going and then out of nowhere someone came along and threw a wrench in his plans. He was thinking about money not sex. There are plenty of veiled references in older and new movies, just not here. Would you be able to think about Bernie Madoff in any way other than how he ruined your life if you had invested with him?

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I think since these are opinions coming through modern eyes and ideals there are bound to be double entendres and allusions that people see now and didn't see then. However I do not think that that shall we dance line was meant as a gay reference but merely to show that he was concerned about what joe would mean to Ginger in jepodising his business in which Ginger was the star and made all the money. HIS money.

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Hollywood has had gay people in its midst since practically the beginning of the film industry in America. By the time of the Astaire/Rogers films, many of the stars, directors, producers, and other workers at the studios were gay. Homosexuality is not a new invention, it's simply that people are mor aware of it now. It is not "coming through modern eyes and ideals". Those "questionable" lines in these films were absolutely double entendres. Since it was impossible to get past the censors to have overt gay characters on screen it had to be done on the sly by using these lines. While I agree that most likely the majority of the "straight" audience took what they heard at face value, the gay of the time definitely knew what was going on and got the jokes.

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I think you're right on the money. Subtle gay jokes were not completely out of the question in that era. Let me explain.

I know a lot of people nowadays (especially young people such as myself) tend to view the movie era of the 1930s as quaint and rather innocent. However, before 1934 especially, movies were quite violent (think gangster flicks like The Public Enemy), sexual (portraying nudity in silhouette or having characters undress) and they were not strangers to the modern 'gay joke.' Stereotyping ran rampant, of course, so along with the tragic hero gangster and the hooker with a heart of gold, you also had the gay man with an eye for fashion.

So what happened? Well, the government (and censorship) happened. After 1934, movies had to abide by a set of rules called the Hays Code (this was before movie ratings) in order to get a release date. In effect, any references to crime, sex, homosexuality or anything else risque had to be shown either in a negative light, or just hinted at. Anything worse could mean that film would never see the inside of a theatre.

The only reason why I know all of this is because just the other night, TCM showed a special on the Hays Code. It was called "Thou Shalt Not: Sex, Sin and Censorship in Pre-Code Hollywood" (website: http://www.tcm.com/thismonth/article/?cid=194098)

It was really fascinating; I suggest you check it out. In the mean time you can read more about the Pre-Code days at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Code

So to answer your question, yes; I think it was a very subtle gay joke. To me, Ginger's reaction is what gave it away.

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"So what happened? Well, the government (and censorship) happened. After 1934, movies had to abide by a set of rules called the Hays Code (this was before movie ratings) in order to get a release date."

I don't know if it was your intention, but you make it sound as if the government had something to do with creating the Motion Picture Production Code (popularly called the "Hays Code" after MPAA chairman Will Hays). In fact, the code was enacted and enforced by the movie industry itself, as a way of self-censoring to thwart threats of federal censorship, and to dilute or eliminate the power of state and local movie censor boards which were common at the time. Also, hundreds of low-budget exploitation movies made outside the Hollywood studio system played on theater screens across the country without a Production Code seal of approval.

Although the Production Code was written in 1930, the industry didn't start enforcing it until about halfway through 1934, so movies made before then may properly be referred to as 'Pre-Code."


All the universe . . . or nothingness. Which shall it be, Passworthy? Which shall it be?

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When Ginger says "It's nice of you to think of Joe and me," Jerome relies "Oh, I'm always thinking about Joe." Ginger reacts with a wry smile as the picture fades and the scene ends. This certainly sounds like an overt gay reference in an era where you didn't see that very often. What do you think?
by - Immy
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There would be no double entendre there. It's more overt than the times allowed to be taken as having a gay meaning. I took it to mean that he was thinking of Joe all the time, because he was envious of him, and Rogers seems to take it that way too. She's flattered. Joe is continually pursuing her.

I see gay subtext in many places but not there. How about instead Astaire telling Edward Everett Horton that he's the father of Astaire's baby?

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Just saw it -- the line is "I think of him constantly" and it seems pretty clear to me that it is sarcastic and meant to mean "I think about how to get rid of him and get you back to your career."

I am alert to the coded references to homosexuality in films of the era, but I just don't think this is one.

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Ballet, football for poofs.

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Well, there seem to be quite a few different ways to interpret that line.

I had thought that Jerome's character means, "Oh, I'm always thinking about Joe," that poor guy who's stuck with your temperament. Otherwise, why wouldn't he also be captivated by Fred and his dancing instead of joining forces with Edward Everett's character to try to frame Linda and Peter?

Perhaps we may further analyze to end up with quite a list of potential interpretations.

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There were plenty of jokes with homosexual subtext in Astaire and Rogers' movies, but I strongly disagree that this is one of them. He just doesn't want Rogers to marry Joe due to financial concerns, and Linda and he are engaging in some mutual sarcasm.

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Immy says > Jerome Cowan, who plays Ginger Rogers' manager, tells Ginger he was planning on taking her and her fiance to an engagement dinner. Ginger replies "It's nice of you to think of Joe and me" to which Jerome says "Oh, I'm always thinking about Joe." Ginger reacts with a wry smile as the picture fades and the scene ends. This certainly sounds like an overt gay reference in an era where you didn't see that very often. What do you think?
It's called sarcasm my friend. It's clear her manager does not care for her fiance or her plans to marry him. Saying he always thinks about him is to say he either doesn't or he does but not in any good way; it's more like how to get rid of him. If he was supposedly attracted to or interested in Jim, why wouldn't he make every effort to help him end up with Linda just to have him around?

I do agree there are times subtle gay references pop up in some Fred and Ginger movies but some people claim they exist everywhere you turn and that I don't believe. In the Gay Divorcee there were lots; and no the title is not a reference to homosexuals - it refers to an upbeat, happy divorced female; that's what that word is supposed to mean). The jokes are always negative towards gays and at their expense. If it was done as a wink and a nod to gay audiences, why would the references be something positive and flattering? That's why I think the jokes are meant to be understood and appreciated by heterosexual audience. They'd get the joke and laugh.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

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I took the line "Oh, I'm always thinking about Joe." as exactly how to get rid of him as well. He'd previously described the marriage as a potential disaster for his own career.

-being that he didn't even like the guy I doubt he'd be saying he lusted after him!

You need to remember what this movie is: just some G-rated fluff (does anybody even KISS in the entire film?) intended to draw in mainstream audiences and make a ton of money.

At a time when they were concocting fake marriages between gay stars and well paid women to avoid image problems they wouldn't hang it this far over the line.

Controversy could actually shutter this movie from theaters, and before television and home video this was utter death for a movie, it could end careers too.

The actor that said this was either straight or hiding being gay really well. If HE interpreted the line that way I bet he would have refused to say it on camera, at the time rumors of homosexuality could have cost him future roles and income too. -we all have to earn a living!

This is a movie from such an innocent time they proposed that a photo of a guy and girl together in their PJs is PROOF they must be married! (There was just no other possibility...)

-how does that sound to modern sensitivities?

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