BFI Restoration

You are right that the U.S.A. was ahead technically of the general U.K. production companies, that did not apply to the productions of ALEXANDER KORDA. They were always using the most up to date and cutting edge of the then 'state of the art', even in B&W. Even the uncompeted I CLAUDIUS showed a technical level every bit as good as the best of HollyWood. Also KORDA was one (1) of the first to go solely into TechniColor production for features and the only way to do that was to lease the equipment from the U.S.A. so they used the exact same equipment. KORDA never worked under a lack of technical shortcoming either in film or sound, B&W or Color, have you ever seen THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES? That was equal to anything HollyWood did at the same time.

Actually, I don't agree. Korda's output was certainly above the level of a "quota quickie" but his productions still suffered from a certain lack of technical equipment and polish that was routine among the Hollywood majors. I don't agree that THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES, the unfinished I CLAUDIUS, THE PRIVATE LIFE OF HENRY VIII, THE DRUM, SANDERS OF THE RIVER, THE LION HAS WINGS, etc., were up to US standards. Even his Technicolor films such as THE DIVORCE OF LADY X or THE FOUR FEATHERS were close to though not quite up to the American level (though I grant that the use of American Technicolor cameras added a better quality to his color productions than his contemporaneous b&w ones).

He used the best that was available but that didn't always enable him to have access at all stages of production to the so-called "cutting edge" technology widely available in the States. Perhaps the main reason his THE THIEF OF BAGDAD does look virtually like a Hollywood production is that it is in fact principally a Hollywood film, mostly produced in the US after they moved production out of Tunisia and then Britain with the onset of war. Even there, certain passages filmed in the UK have a different look and sound than the American-made portions. Korda's SAHARA, likewise a US-made film, was similarly clearly superior technically to anything he made in England.

THINGS TO COME has a remarkable production design and looks all right but simply isn't quite up to American standards of the time, in picture or sound.

NO use continueing this line for we disagree and have seen every film you have mentioned. Also we could bring up MANY HollyWood films that are not up to KORDA standards either artistically or technically made at the same time period and by the Major Studios. Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

That's fine, but why do you seem so put out by the fact that we disagree? As long as things stay friendly and civil and don't degenerate into name-calling and other such stupidities of the kind I've seen elsewhere on IMDb occasionally, healthy disagreements and differing points of view are what it's all about.

I assumed you'd seen all the films I mentioned and most or all of Korda's others -- that's why I brought them up, since I figured you'd know them. It doesn't matter that you don't agree, I didn't expect you to, but no need to get huffy-sounding about it. C'mon!

BTW, I too can cite many H'wood films below Korda's technical levels, including many of the majors' films (though to me these would mostly have been pre-1937, -'38 or thereabouts). No one said that all Korda's films looked inferior to all Hollywood pictures. But like ALL British filmmakers his work was adversely and inescapably affected by the general technical inferiority of the British film industry overall.

Anyway, it was nice conversing with somebody so well informed on these things.

We are not "put out" by disagreements, but there is no reason to continue. What you call "huffy-sounding" is just directness, maybe in this PC world your just not used to it. From our viewpoint it would just be beating a dead horse to continue and we see to much of that on these message boards already. We have both made our points and will meet again on another topic and again exchange points of mutual interest. You may find the balance of our film comments under xerses13.

I agree Hobnob. I think there are some very clear distinctions in look and sound quality between American and British films of the 1930s. Even though I think a lot of the stories, acting, etc. are well done, I sometimes find it difficult to get past the clearly inferior technical aspects of the British 1930s films, which is a shame (but totally understandable--the British film industry after all was much smaller than the American in the 1930s and it had less resources and incentives to invest in technological innovations). I agree that Korda was the best of the British producers from what I've seen, but I'm truly surprised that someone would suggest that his films were technically up to the level of the best of the US films at the same time (I'm assuming at least that we are supposed to be comparing best against best, and not best against worst...).

At any rate, Korda was a great innovator and impresario of the British film industry. I've almost always been pleased by his films.

Thanks, rmm413-1, and I think your observations are dead on. For example, Alfred Hitchcock took the greatest pleasure from a compliment that his films looked more "American" than British, though even Hitch couldn't come up to US standards of the 30s. The British industry was too poor compared to the US to be able to afford the innovations of the US industry, which has always been in the forefront of film techniques. When Hitchcock left for the US, he realized he was trading creative independence for better technical facilities, but given his predilection for emphasizing technique over content, such a trade-off was worth it to him (at least for a while!)

But you are exactly right about Korda, one of the great filmmakers of the century, in any country. In many ways he was British film during its golden age, the 30s through the 50s.

there has been 1 more version released here in the uk by E1 Entertainment UK and its 88 mins, so im thinking why are we going backwards the last print was 92 mins they are both uk so theres no time difference between them so i am baffled

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

Last time I was in London, three months ago, I looked for Things to Come at HMV, just to see if there was something other than the seemingly now-standard, 92-minute print available in the UK (and US), but I found only that cut version. Whatever happened to the vaunted "restoration", it isn't anywhere in sight at this point, nearly three years on.

its mad H.G.Wells most hated rival Metropolis has just come out at 150mins both here and in the US fully restored with over 25 mins of new footage, but there's no sign of the BFI dvd with 3mins of new footage or one i have been hunting (high treason) (1929) another brit sci fi,
i dont know about the haryhousen dvd because he didnt release it in this country but that is apparently 92min NTSC so about 90 min pall,
I got She the restoration by harry but its not complete, i heard someone offered him the missing footage and he said he didnt want it, dont know why maybe they wanted to much money for it,
ps i emailed bfi and citerion asking about the dvds

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

I refuse to buy the "Harryhausen-supervised" DVDs of either Things to Come or She because I object to colorization.

(I understand he was very surprised and disappointed at how badly the colorized discs for those two films, and especially the three black & white films of his own which were also colorized, turned out. Serves him right. Besides, he had nothing to do with the two 1930s films, so what was he doing "supervising" these in the first place? They just used his name to try to sell these travesties. Shame on him.)

Anyway, I did read that the prints used for those colorized monstrosities were the same length as the b&w copies usually available. Certainly neither one had any "new" (restored) footage. No one's missing anything by not getting those DVDs.

Criterion was rumored to be preparing a disc of Things to Come over a year ago, but no word on it since. Presumably they'd have as complete a film as possible.

i didnt get much from the BFI only that ITV own it heres a cut n paste
If you are specifically interested in the details of the BFI's archival copies of the film, please contact our curatorial office at [email protected], tel. 020 7957 4805. You may otherwise wish to contact the film's rights holders ITV Studios (tel. 020 7491 1441, [email protected]) if you are interested in broader answers regarding different versions/running times.
their database entry is wrong too they have it at 108 when it was released when it was 117 so i told them and they said its an error lol


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

Thank you. I'll be in Britain in a week and if I have time may check the information you provided. Meanwhile let's continue to hope a more complete copy turns up at some point.

have a good time while your here, you can visit the BFI and watch films in their database while your here, well depending on where in uk your going i know theres one in london, i was looking on archive.org and they have a cpl of versions on there all are the london films version 92-93 mins except 1 which is nearly 95mins it dont start with big ben london films but with a big H.G.WELLS, i watched it but didnt notice any difference but may be i missed it heres a link.

http://www.archive.org/details/things_to_come_ipod

i find it slightly dark so you may need to turn up the brightness or contrast

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

Hi themaki. Actually I had to postpone my trip for a month (my wife, who's English, did have to go), but we'll have plenty of time in December and may try to visit BFI then. Thanks again.

the UK in December pack your thermals lol, im in wales gets pretty cold here too, dam i wish i could hibernate,on the plus side its lovely with all the lights and decorations in the night,
ive had no reply from itv or the bfi's other office may be busy or not takeing emails who knows maybe cut backs.
dave

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

We were there last Dec., in Essex, not bad, at least sheltered from the Atlantic! Keep trying your BFI and ITV links but I really don't suppose you'll get much new information. Let's hope they're not cutting back on film restoration. Talk to you later, and stay warm.

hey hobnob had any luck on longer versions yet ?


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

Hi themaki19 -- Nice to hear from you after 2 1/2 years! And here I am, in the States, still freezing, three winters later! You too?

Unhappily, the short answer is -- no. Both the weather and the status of Things to Come have stayed the same. Haven't heard a thing since our last exchange. Last time in Britain (October) I even poked around once more, looking for any sign of a restored print, but nothing doing. The long-rumored release from the Criterion label over here has never materialized.

It's like the promised release of the restored version of The Day of the Triffids -- lots of optimistic reports, but nothing comes to pass. But, unlike Things to Come, at least we know actual work is being done to restore that film.

So for the foreseeable future, it appears we'll have to settle for the basic 92-minute version that's most commonly seen. If you get a good print, that's perfectly acceptable.

Anyway, let's stay in touch, and hope for the best.

RIP, HMV: 1921-2013.

The Day of the Triffids i woulds love that, i recently bought the BFI restored blu ray of things to come it is the longest version known and its a stunning print re done for blu ray last yr so its an improvement on the dvd and theres a nice little booklet too and a version of the film made up of stills and subtitles to make it almost its original length as a extra, have you got facebook ? add me if you want https://www.facebook.com/chojin.urotsukidoji ,, they have been restoring the hammer films recently with bits found in japan and a cpl of DR Who with found footage, i recently picked up dam busters restored and tora tora tora with all the footage restored
dave

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

I saw the new Blu-ray of Things listed on Amazon UK, but it seems to be the same print (same length) as the same company's Region 2 DVD, which in turn seems to be the same as what's available here. (The best US DVD has a run time of 92 minutes, but that's under the Region 1 NTSC system; since as you know the R2 PAL disc runs at 25 frames per second instead of the standard 24, movies have a faster running time on PAL discs. But I'm assuming the actual film is the same.) I didn't know about the extras, which sound cool.

I've heard that they've located footage from Japanese prints of some Hammer films, which are supposed to be more graphic than what was made for the UK and US markets. I think some of them are coming to the States. I'll try and check out the links you sent. Thanks!

PS -- They're saying Triffids may be out in 2014. Or should I say, "maybe".

yeah on the blu ray i have its 2012 issue same length as the bfi dvd but remastered for blu ray with better picture quality it also says on the blu ray its the longest print there is, as it uses sauces from everywhere, the US version is missing parts and is not very good image wise compared to the BFI print i was told, i would love to visit the BFI its a film museum holding 1000s of films in its archive, it has a film high treason, 1926 i think i would love to see


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

I saw on Amazon UK that the Blu-ray runs 96 minutes and the standard DVD 89 minutes. Given the difference in the PAL/NTSC systems' running times, I suspect the 89-minute version is the same as the US 92-minute version. The 96-minute run time for the Blu would roughly translate as 100 or so minutes NTSC. That sounds like it includes the stills and other reconstructed scenes you mentioned.

The BFI would be great to visit. My wife (who's English) has mentioned it to me. She once worked for the BBC, and they have an extensive film and television library that would be fun to see as well.

yea the bbc at one point destroyed 1000 of old films and series to make room


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

The same thing used to happen here. Can you imagine that? Unbelievably stupid.

It'd be a shame if, among the stuff destroyed by the Beeb, was a complete version of TTC.

yeah i bet there was a copy too and theda barda's cleopatra, the bigest thing their pissed at was the doctor who they lost their paying loads to get bits back from all over to join together with other bits even if its a few seconds its closer to a full episode of the ones missing, they have found parts in Timbuktu and Mumbai so i was told they are remastering 50 yrs of doctor who and putting them on dvd theres some william hartnell and lots of patrick t missing


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

Dr. Who was never seen much over here. But just yesterday there was a documentary about the series shown on BBC America, incorporating an episode from the late 60s with Dr. Who and his three companions landing in Mexico at the time of the Aztecs. I'm not sure if this was some "lost" or reconstructed episode, but it was interesting to watch.

may be the one they just reconstructed with some new footage they found
, always enjoy dr who even peter cushing one , they are doin somthing with the 2 cushing movies for blu ray


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

themaki19,

Just wanted to tell you that TTC is being released in the US by the Criterion label on June 18. I posted a new thread on the subject on this board. The running time is 97 minutes, which may indicate a few extra minutes of footage has been included.

ahh kk cool, i rang the bfi about the bfi version i asked if they used every bit of moving footage available from all over the world and they did they hunted down every available second of film for their version, and they said as an added bonus on the second disc they used all that and added stills with original audio to bring it closer to the original lenth, hopfully the criterion will use this version

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die
H.P.LOVECRAFT

Well, it'll be another three months before it's released on June 18, so I'll let you know then! I'm also curious if any of the unnamed extras have to do with restoration efforts. See you later.

DJ-Chojin -- formerly "themaki":

Just wanted to catch up to tell you I got the Criterion release here in the States. From what you said back in March it doesn't appear that this version is the same one you described from the BFI. No stills or anything included (not in the film itself, and not in any extras that I know of). I did see a few brief scenes, really extensions of scenes, that I don't recall having seen before, though none of them is really significant to the story. The running time is indeed 97 minutes, which is a little longer than other versions around. The release has an interesting essay on the film, but I haven't gotten into most of the extras yet.

Overall it's a very good presentation and easily the best edition of this film I'm aware of, as you'd expect from Criterion. From the information found in it, I gather that a lot of the footage originally shot was cut and disposed of even before the film's initial theatrical run back in 1936, mainly due to objections from Alexander Korda, H.G Wells, or someone else. Most of these problems reportedly centered around political imagery or content (Wells favored an anti-democratic, anti-individual, almost fascistic vision of the future, which in parts was too much for Korda and his collaborators). So it seems that most of the versions available over the years are indeed more or less intact -- as far as the actual original release goes, as opposed to what was shot but never included in the theatrical print, or in some cases very briefly exhibited before being edited out.

Definitely the best disc of this film around, at least on this side of the Atlantic. Cool cover, too.

So, how come the name change?

yeah i changed my name as i thought i would use my DJ name little it of free advertising lol i`m a DJ and station manager at Night of the Fallen Angel radio,

yeah sounds like a good restoration, when it came out over here in the 30s we had a longer version which ran for a while but then was cut down over the yrs then butchered for a new run and in the US was cut even more to get more ppl in the cinema. crazy and they still do that now with films.

97 that would be about 91 or 92 pal i think with speed up roughly,
they have found some extra bits from wicker man yesterday in the US they found a longer running print they need to check it against footage they have now and that will be in the new studio canal print coming soon

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Oh, I see. And just when I was still trying to figure out what the significance of "themaki" was! My wife, who's British, knows a little about your station, which I gather is an internet outlet.

You're right, 97 minutes NTSC would be about 92 PAL, but over here previous versions ran 92 NTSC (about 88 PAL), so there is a little extra footage (at least as far as US prints go) on the Criterion disc than in previous American DVDs. But this sounds like footage already available in newer UK prints, so this is probably the same version you now have.

Still, the more I re-watch it, the less attractive Wells's vision of the future becomes -- this crypto-fascist, cold, dictatorial, sterile view that suited Wells's bizarre opinions but which have never sat well with audiences. According to an essay in the Criterion release, and from other things I've read, TTC wasn't well received by either audiences or critics in 1936, either in Britain or America, mainly because of its anti-democratic and anti-humanist concept of the future. It's fascinating to view, seldom dull, in many parts brilliant from a cinematic point of view, but not an attractive or, certainly, a persuasive film. Few people who've seen it have ever longed for the world of 2036 that Wells conceived and so desperately desired. This film, and his novel, should really discredit him as a political thinker, though his reputation as an imaginative writer remains deservedly strong.

They've found more of the original The Wicker Man? I thought they'd recovered all of it several years ago. Have to check that out. I'm also still waiting for further news on where the restoration of The Day of the Triffids (1962) stands. They keep promising it but it's been years in the works.

i would love to see a restored triffids its one of my all time faves, along with day the earth caught fire which i have remastered nice too, i have triffids on vhs and dvd the dvd is from ebay and a dvdr not bad quality, back then in wells time things were of a very strict conservative Victorian values, books and films were edited and altered verne for example was butchered to conform and large bits changed by british writers to conform and get this most versions of his books out now are still these changed ones because they either dont realize or dont want to pay copyright to get a new translation i have the oxford press new translations, i think all wells work is intact but you never know, i enjoy his writing the time machine is my fave i wish there was a sequel

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The Day the Earth Caught Fire is also one of my all-time favorites. I have both the US and UK DVDs of the restored print (widescreen and the original tint, which I remember from its theatrical run when I was a kid). Excellent film, won the British Film Academy Award for its screenplay.

As for Triffids, well, it remains a distant promise. I just can't understand why the restoration -- which is being done -- has taken so long. I understand the problems involved but I've never heard of any film taking so long -- 5 or 6 years at least, I believe. The person doing it has had special showings of completed portions of it in theaters and cinemas over the past year or two, which strikes me as serving no point. Reportedly the restored portions look stunning.

Meanwhile, as for Things to Come, we seem to have gotten all we're ever gonna get. If you can sometime go onto criterioncollection.com or Amazon or some site that carries the Criterion DVD, check out its rather cool cover art. Interesting concept and color scheme.

i wonder if all the footage is in The Day the Earth Caught Fire i know some violence and nudity and language is restored but it does leave you thinking there should have been a bit more i mean the film a bit longer,i would love blu ray of it but its only dvd
triffids i am so pissed at i really want to see it all mint and cleaned like they done for forbidden planet which is wow so stunning and new looking,
yeah i will have to get the criterion blu ray of Things to come, looks nice

tune in to the greatest music on Night of the Fallen Angel http://notfarltd.blogspot.co.uk

The Day the Earth Caught Fire is fully restored, but all that was altered was replicating the tint at the beginning and end and putting it back to its widescreen format.

Actually, none of the film was ever cut, even in the lousy pan-and-scan, untinted prints that were the only versions of the picture around for 40 years. There's no total nudity in the movie (this was 1961, a bit early), though there are several steamy shots of Janet Munro in the near-nude. The worst language is "son of a bitch" and "bastard", and those and the very modest violence have always been there, even on local New York television in the mid-60s, which never ceased to surprise me for that time.

So, luckily, unlike Things to Come, TDTECF always was and still is complete, only now it's the way it was originally seen in theaters.

it was cut here even as an X rating till 2000 when it was passed as PG,but i cant find anything saying cuts wavered, it may be this tamer version that was sent to the US, heres the censors page
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/day-earth-caught-fire-scope
it be interesting to find out if they were restored, i emailed them to find out because if it was the cut print sent to the USA and others then was this cut print used for the DVDs or were the cuts restored or were they lost ect


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The US and UK DVDs are identical, and the film is exactly as I saw it in the 60s. The US DVD has commentary by the writer-director, Val Guest, who retired to California in the early 1980s. In his discussion with the other commentator, specifically about any cuts, and whether there were any shots of Janet Munro in the nude, Guest said there were none.

Among the other DVD extras are two photos of Janet washing her hair topless, where her breasts are on full view, but Guest specifically states that no such scenes were actually filmed for the movie. The pictures are on-set cheesecake photographs that went unseen for many years. Also, no reference gives different running times for multiple versions of the film, which do not exist. The film may well have had some of its scenes censored for some TV markets, or even for some theatrical showings in conservative areas, but what's on the DVDs is the exact film, in full, as released in 1961 (1962 in the States).

yeah BBFC replied and said it has no record of what they cut out themselves here but if the US and UK version is identical and it was not cut in the US then the print here in UK is the full now uncut print which i am glad about as so many have lost the cut bits (like some hammer films) and even more modern like mad max and wicker man, I did get a bit of interesting info from them from the notes on the file the producers sent the shooting script to the bbfc for analysis for a guideline so it would be passed on completion and the BBFC indicates concerns to them about the amount of language, nudity and sex references in the script, so i wonder what it would have been like if they hadn't been told to tone it down prior to shooting,
yeah what got me thinking about cuts in the first place is where he is fighting and the guy goes into the elevator shaft around by there there seems to be a slight jump, (the whole scene seems like there was more to it suppressed in some way but maybe it was scripted but were told trim that so they did a small rewrite)
i wonder if theres a book i wouldnt mind reading it

we just looked the book is about $4 in usa but amazon seller is charging 12 pounds postage like wtf lol its 3 pound max i got hardbacks from states cheaper postage

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I never noticed any jump cut in the elevator (not lift? ) scene where the beatnik falls to his death. It always looked straightforward to me.

As I say it wouldn't surprise me if local censors cut some scenes back in 1961, or if some were cut for later TV showings, but nothing in the film was cut for its release. So there's nothing missing to find or put back in, fortunately.

By the way, in the scene where Edward Judd is allowed to drive through the police barrier to get to Janet's flat, did you recognize who the cop was who stops him, looks at his press card, then allows him to pass? It's none other than 28-year-old Michael Caine, still playing bit roles, a few years before stardom.

Funny you mention the book, because I have it, which I bought in paperback back in 1962. It's quite good, with a few added details. The sex scene between Judd and Munro is written fairly explicitly. But the ending is less ambiguous than the movie's: a few drops of rain begin to fall, and they know the Earth will be saved. I didn't realize it was still available from anyone. It was one of the first "novelizations" of a film, that is, the book was written after the movie came out.

Note: I just realized that IMDb's new (and lousier) boards now put heavy black bars across any portion of a message labeled "spoiler", where they used to have something like this -- spoiler spoiler -- instead. If you put your cursor on the black bars they disappear and you can read the hidden message. I think this new system looks like hell, as do most people I talk to.

it looked better with spoiler than black bars, yeah its funny how they cut it here in the uk and not in the usa,and i bet if the film had been made in the US the mpaa wouldn't have forced script edits like the uk did, i wonder if the un doctored script is online to read,
i picked up the remasterd crazies from blue underground friday US import R rated i wonder if it was cut for an R or reclassified uncut for R much like we do here,
trouble is here every movie or vhs, dvd or other visual media has to be classified or it is not allowed to get released we dont have an unrated option, they are a lot more libiral now than they were when maggie thatcher banned things and sent people to prison for owning horror films lol stupid woman


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