MovieChat Forums > The Raven (1935) Discussion > Some ravings about 'The Raven'

Some ravings about 'The Raven'

posted 20 years ago by J. Spurlin
26 replies | jump to latest

Just saw The Raven for the first time on video. Some miscellaneous thoughts.

The filmmakers seem to do their best with the time and money they have. Let's see, 1935. Well, it's probably too late for retakes now. ...

The climax doesn't feel right. I don't want to give too much away. Let's just say the expected scream comes from an unexpected character – which is fine. It's a funny surprise, and so is the next line of dialogue. But did what we assume is about to happen in the torture room actually happen? We need a feeling of finality, and we don't get it. ...

Lugosi's line readings in the early scenes are very bad – unless we take the performance as deliberately comic, then they are very good. Or at least funny. His overall performance looks shabby next to Boris Karloff's and Samuel S. Hinds's, who are both real and human. ...

What a fine actor Samuel S. Hinds is. He gives this silly B movie his all. His terror of losing his daughter seems very real. (We know him best as Jimmy Stewart's pop in It's a Wonderful Life. I wonder if he ever got a movie role worthy of his talent.) ...

Irene Ware as Jean Thatcher is lovely and competent, but no more. Too bad. Her character has a very charming moment when she attempts to convince the hideously deformed Karloff that she screamed only because he had entered the room so suddenly. Her character throughout shows impeccable good manners. ...

Lester Matthews, her love interest, is a drip. Too bad he shares with her the last scene, which is a dull attempt to end the movie on a light note. Reminds you of the similar codas in Frankenstein and Dracula. ...

The stock music is intrusive in an early scene with Karloff and a museum director. I don't remember it being particularly effective anywhere else. No, wait, it was effective during the scene where Lugosi removes Karloff's bandages. (That is Karloff's best scene. He lends the same poignancy to his character that he does to the monster in Frankenstein.) ...

The scene ends with an impressive sequence involving mirrors. A better director would have made more of it, but as it is, it's not bad. ...

Lugosi's hamminess works very well in this scene and in the following scene where he torments Karloff. Elsewhere he's comic; here he's scary. ...

The party sequence at Lugosi's home is nice – light and funny. The actors are fairly breezy and natural in this scene – not what they might have been in an A movie, but not bad either. ...

Karloff sounds very much like The Monster at one point in the movie. "Grrrrrrr!" ...

I just glanced through some of the user comments. It seems everyone compares it to The Black Cat, sort of a companion piece. I haven't seen that one yet. "Grrrrrr!"

... Justin

[–] GameraMothraGodzilla 20 years ago

Karloff sounds very much like The Monster at one point in the movie. "Grrrrrrr!"

Yes, when he sees what Lugosi has done to him and he can't do anything about it, he does sound like the monster when he growls. I always thought I was the only one that noticed.

Well, you should see THE BLACK CAT (1934) soon, it is great with this film. It was recently on TCM.

You've got the brain of a four year old boy. I bet he was glad to get rid of it.
-Groucho Marx

[–] J. Spurlin 20 years ago

I'm looking forward to seeing "The Black Cat." Judging from the reviews, it seems you can't see one without the other.

Thanks for replying!

...

[–] GameraMothraGodzilla 20 years ago

I thought I was the only one around here. Glad to see I'm not. I saw THE RAVEN a few years before I got around to seeing THE BLACK CAT, and they both are great. I still don't like to choose which one I like better though.

BTW, You're welcome.

You've got the brain of a four year old boy. I bet he was glad to get rid of it.
-Groucho Marx

[–] J. Spurlin 20 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0024894/board/threads/

The board for The Black Cat is just about as dead as this one. No fair. Almost any junky new movie has a hopping message board. The Raven is no classic, but it's still better than all three Scary Movies combined.

If the world were sane, new horror and horror-comedy movies would have to compete a lot harder than they do to eclipse the Universal Studios films. But the world is insane, and people skip over the one dusty copy of The Raven on their video shelves (if there's even one) in favor of I Know What Tedious Things You Did You Last Summer But Can Hardly Motivate Myself to Care.

I think that's the title.

…

[–] CaptainStardust 19 years ago

I think Karloff sounds like the Monster when he growls in this movie as well...I thought it was rather funny....

But I know I'd rather watch The Raven than I Know What You Did Last Summer...Too bad others wouldn't agree, or even want to sit through one hour of Raven just because it is in black and white...And yet the will sit through two hours of complete rubbish like Scream...

[–] J. Spurlin 19 years ago

Hello, Miss Moony! Happy to see you down here in this deserted place! It's certainly not as lively as the Harry Potter board. (I clicked on your profile.)

I wonder if Karloff's "grrrr!" is a deliberate reference to his Frankenstein character, or if that's just the way he always growled. I don't recall him making that noise in any other non-Frankenstein movie.

Scream is witless junk. The movie seems to think it's wallowing in cleverness to mock the conventions of recent horror junk, like Friday the 13th and Halloween, as if any intelligent person could have taken them seriously to begin with. Matthew Lillard's self-satisfied performance is unbearable. The Raven is incomparably wittier, while twenty or thirty other Universal Horror pictures are even better than The Raven.

…

[–] thefiend99 19 years ago

J, I can't believe that you didn't like Lugosi's role in this movie....as a Lugosi fanatic--I was heartbroken. I totally agree with what you said about all the other actors though..right on the money. But I just can't bring myself to agree that Bela was nothing but a funny ham in this one. I'd have agreed if we were talking about Black Friday, but not The Raven. I think his over-the-top portrayal of Dr. Vollin fit the character...a man who just couldn't take NO for an answer. I don't know---maybe my judgment is marred by a huge crush on Bela....

"Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make!" -- Dracula (1931)

[–] J. Spurlin 19 years ago

Hello, fiend99! Welcome to the Raven board. Why the heck isn't this place hopping? This is a highly entertaining Universal horror movie we're talking about here, folks! Where is everyone?

Well, you'll be happy to know I never find Lugosi to be anything less than compelling. That goes for The Raven as well. But he strives for effect in this film without fully understanding what he's saying. Or so it seems. I don't know if the stories about his poor understanding of English are true or not. I've heard his language problems contribute to his peculiar performance in Dracula. But in Dracula he seems to know what he's saying – even if he says it in a strange way.

I think the director just needed to rein him in a bit. Or maybe not. He's a lot of fun to watch – and listen to – hammy though he is.

Anyway, I see on another thread you've already seen this movie's companion piece, The Black Cat. Which do you like better?

…

[–] thefiend99 19 years ago

Ok, I'll forgive you since you seem to be a fan. ;) And yes, he was a bit of a ham. I've done a lot of reading about his performance in the movie Dracula, and I've come to the conclusion that he understood English ok, it's just his command of the language that seemed to have been a problem. I understand the dilemma he must have been in. I've been studying Italian for about 8 years now, and I understand more than I can put into words. Maybe what he tried to say didn't come out quite right. I believe that's what Karloff meant when he said that Lugosi didn't have a good hold on the English language.

What do I like better, The Black Cat or The Raven?? Decisions, decisions!!! I honestly can't choose. I think Bela seemed more comfortable in his role as Dr. Werdegast, but Boris seemed more comfortable with Edmond Bateman. I just don't know.

PS....thanks for the nice welcome. I've never been welcomed on an imdb board before!. :D

"Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make!" -- Dracula (1931)

[–] J. Spurlin 19 years ago

I'm in an actor and a member of a theater company that does weird, elliptical plays. Sometimes Lugosi's performances remind me of my own performances early in the rehearsal process. Often the meaning of what I'm saying does not become clear until after several rehearsals, and I realize I've been saying my lines in a way that makes little sense.

Even if I do understand the line, I have a bad habit of saying something for effect rather than meaning. That's Lugosi, too!

I have less excuse. I'm speaking English in these plays, and English is my native tongue.

So what are your favorite Lugosi movies? My favorite Lugosi performance is, of course, Dracula. My favorite movies include Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein, Son of Frankenstein, Ninotchka and The Wolf Man. But he's not the featured attraction of any of those movies. (What a weird list! How did Ninotchka get in there?)

... Justin

[–] cpetr13 17 years ago

As a fellow actor who has done a huge amount of dialect work, I think Lugosi's use of language is consistent with his native language and, as most immigrants do, his syntax and grammar tended to reflect the old ways even when given English lines to read. This is especially true in emotive scenes. Even though I am English-language based, when doing dialect parts I find myself changing the lines to fit the OTHER language's linguistics, especially when given an argument or emotional soliloquy.

I think the biggest problem with Lugosi's performances weren't his at all, but the fact that they hired a native-born Hungarian and didn't adapt the dialog to reflect his natural speech patterns.

I think a lot of people are under the impression that Lugosi barely spoke English, but the truth is he was in the country for nearly a decade before "Dracula" and was in fact conversant (if not polished) in its intricacies. Another problem is that many people simply have a hard time understanding people with accents they are unfamiliar with even if the grammar is perfect.

As for my favorite Lugosi performances, I enjoy to that most people don't list: "White Zombie" and "Murdrs in the Rue Morgue", and then there is the rarel;y-shown "Mystery fo Marie Celeste", which is a minor but flavorful role, much like his scenes in "Ninitchka".

[–] J. Spurlin 17 years ago

I have a new favorite Lugosi performance since I started this thread a couple of years ago. The one in "Glen or Glenda."

The performance is so surreal and richly comic that it's impossible to think that he's debasing himself. I know he was a drug addict at the time, and I know that the movie is awful. But it's so hilariously awful that it's almost -- almost -- indistinguishable from a great comedy. And his performance is almost -- almost -- indistinguishable from that of a good comedian.

You know I still haven't seen The Black Cat? Now that you've replied to this thread, I may put it on the top of Blockbuster queue, assuming it's on DVD.

That's very interesting what you say about the dialogue not being written to conform to his native speech patterns. I think it was his responsibility as an actor to find a comfortable way of employing our speech patterns. Then again, if I were directing a movie with him in it, I would do everything I could to make him look good. He was worth so much better than most of the parts he got.

What role would you put him in, if you could direct any movie you wanted, as long as he had a featured part?

... Justin

[–] dr_mabuse33 19 years ago

Don't feel bad, Fiend99, Lugosi was a bit of a ham and we love him for it. I also enjoy his thick but beautiful accent. Dr. Werdegast was great, I love his "Supernatural, perhaps; baloney, perhaps not" line.

-Flik

[–] thefiend99 19 years ago

That's my favorite line too, flik!

I don't know what my absolute favorite Bela movie is. I think--if I absolutely had to narrow it down--I would say 1929's "The Thirteenth Chair". He looked absolutely incredible in that movie. And it is always cool seeing him play a good guy.

"Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make!" -- Dracula (1931)

[–] bushrod56 19 years ago

I'll add my 2 cents- a movie like this needs to be commented upon! This is the one time Lugosi absolutely towered over Karloff in their films together. I get positively gleeful at the juiciness of Bela's performance in this. The shot of him laughing from above at Boris after the operation is just too great. And that line of his near the end- 'Poe, you are AHVENGHD!' is- well, mere words fail me. I could go on in this vein but we are all like-minded and I believe you all know EXACTLY what I mean. I've got to add that I like this one more than THE BLACK CAT which I know is probably more arty, witty, classy and all that, but this one is just more full-blown, melodramatic FUN.

[–] thefiend99 19 years ago

You're right, bushrod, it is fun. And I think that's what most of us Lugosi fans love about it....well, that and Lugosi himself (from a female's point of view, of course.) Hehe...

I watched it just the other night....for the millionth time. I'll never get tired of it. NEVER. Just plain brilliant.

"Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make!" -- Dracula (1931)

[–] Edmond_Bateman 19 years ago

J. Spurlin wrote:

> Karloff sounds very much like The Monster at one point in the
> movie. "Grrrrrrr!"

The director dubbed one of Karloff's Monster growls into the mirror
sequence. I think it spoils an otherwise great scene. That, and even
a nutjob like Vollin would have thought to unload Bateman's revolver
while he was under anesthesia.

[–] movienerd666 12 years ago

yes there are many apparent flaws, however these do not matter in my view, the film is still brilliant and imo feature Lugosi's best performance (even better than Igor or Dracula)

there's no point in being grownup if you cant be childish sometimes!!!

[–] bradford-1 12 years ago

One thing about Lugosi is he never seemed to look down on his material. Whether it was DRACULA or one of the Monogram cheapies. He gave it his all as in: "I'm a professional and must do my best not to cheat the audience, no matter how bad the writing, or the costumes, or the scenery." Edward G. Robinson was a performer in the same vein.
"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did."

[–] movienerd666 12 years ago

I agree, it really is quite amazing that he managed to keep his dignity in every film he was in, even in the *beep* Ed Wood movies he was in later on

there's no point in being grownup if you cant be childish sometimes!

[–] DuncanJupiter 12 years ago

Nice comment, bradford, and very well said. It's something I wish more people were able to appreciate about his work.

[–] MrBook_ 11 years ago

Amazing that I finally see this movie after putting it off for 150 years, and who do I find here on its IMDb board...

I think I liked this a little more than you did, particularly Lugosi's performance. He did pathos a lot better than he's usually given credit for. I agree that Samuel S. Hinds was excellent and the fiance was a drip. I noticed Karloff's Frankenstein monster voice as well. I kept expecting him to say "FRIEND! GOOOOOD!"

Overall I liked this movie, but it didn't have that amazing mystical feel of the best 30s Universal horror films like The Mummy and The Black Cat. It just kind of seemed like a genre picture, which of course it was, but that didn't stop a lot of the other first-wave Universal horrors from being mind-blowing proto-surrealism. Fun film, tho, good Halloween night movie.

I'm goin' to bed.

I write the songs that make the whole world SUCK

[–] billyglenn 11 years ago

Playing right now on Svengoolie on Me-TV.

[–] valentinorecording 11 years ago

Karloff and Lugosi in the same scene.
Great!

[–] macedoniall 9 years ago

Am I the only one amazed that this thread started in 2004? Must be one of the oldest threads I've read.

This movie was pretty great the ending sort of threw me off though. I love Lugosi and Karloff so this movie was a treat, but if I had to chose I'd chose Black Cat,

[–] franzkabuki 9 years ago

Yeah it's certainly a campy, crude & incoherent number hastily put together from a couple of obvious building blocks - Frankensteins and mad scientists and... Edgar Allan Poe. The latter being a particularly ill fit, so they've gone to rather strange lengths to establish such a connection to justify the title (that raven dance!) And it features some of the sloppiest editing this side of Ed Wood. All this don't mean it's without its charms though... and occasionally they even get the atmosphere sort of right. As for Lugosi... as someone elsewhere noted, this guy could overact even when he had only one eyeball to do it.

As for the comparisons to The Black Cat... at least quality-wise, that's well off - the earlier film being a genuinely effective little chiller.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan