MovieChat Forums > Baby Face (1933) Discussion > Mr. Cragg, nice old man or radical corru...

Mr. Cragg, nice old man or radical corrupter?

posted 14 years ago by kikiteka
9 replies | jump to latest

One of the best things about finding the uncensored version of Baby Face is finding out just how much the character of Mr. Cragg was changed. In the theatrical release, he's the kindly voice of wisdom and moral judgement, in the uncensored version, he's the guy who cheers her on! That's no little difference! The uncensored version shows that the Nietzsche loving Mr. Cragg provided the motivation for her behavior in the entire movie, and the ending shows her finally rejecting his philosophy of "crush all sentiment". They completely cut that out for the theatrical release and made him the guy that's trying to get her to change her ways, and the Nietzsche angle disappeared completely. In other words, they removed her character's motivation from the film. That just blows my mind.

[–] jamesericmcgee 11 years ago

I think Cragg is just trying to help Lily protect her self in this man's world. Now that she's on her own, they both know what she is likely to become based on her poor upbringing. A character named Lily Powers has to redefine independence.

"The only reason I'm paranoid is because everyone's against me." - Frank Burns of M*A*S*H*

[–] stanleyhetz 8 years ago

I think Cragg is just trying to help Lily protect her self in this man's world. Now that she's on her own, they both know what she is likely to become based on her poor upbringing. A character named Lily Powers has to redefine independence.

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[–] richspenc 7 years ago

Man, the changes since those days. The way men just groped and grabbed the women. I mean men do it today too, but usually only when the girl is apparently enjoying it too. Men respect the "no means no" thing much better today with women, there's much harsher laws in that department today. Back then they just didn't care if the woman didn't like it or even if she was screaming. I guess that's what got me in this film's first scene in the bar. I also notice in a lot of these old films how often men slap or hit women and how everyone else around them just seem to accept it.

[–] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stanleyhetz 7 years ago

Man, the changes since those days. The way men just groped and grabbed the women. I mean men do it today too, but usually only when the girl is apparently enjoying it too. Men respect the "no means no" thing much better today with women, there's much harsher laws in that department today. Back then they just didn't care if the woman didn't like it or even if she was screaming. I guess that's what got me in this film's first scene in the bar. I also notice in a lot of these old films how often men slap or hit women and how everyone else around them just seem to accept it.

Women also slapped and hit men in those older movies.

[–] Bree_33 11 years ago

A woman, young, beautiful like you can get anything she wants in the world because you have power over men. But you must use men, not let them use you.

And this is Stanwyck's mentor!

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[–] mikekrit62 10 years ago

It sounds like a lesson any intelligent, word-wise mother would tell her own young daughter. Of course, most pick it up just by watching rather than being so plainly told.

[–] heyteegs 9 years ago

What's so interesting about your post is that throughout this movie I kept thinking of Bobbie Gentry's tune, Fancy - which is basically about a word-wise mother telling her daughter the lesson that Barbara Stanwyck goes with in Baby Face.

http://crewdtees.com/

[–] rayincumbria 9 years ago

Well, in some way 'nice' .. in that her cared for her, wanted what was best for her, wanted to get her out of her situation, and (seemingly) about the only guy in the film not out to have his way with her...
But (In my opinion), his approach, attidude to life, politics and method were deeply flawed.
Yes, he, as you say 'Mr. Cragg provided the motivation for her behavior in the entire movie' .. which whilst giving her temporary success, led to to her downfall - or at least deep loss.
So would she have been better off without him and his advice? MMmmm interesting. Without him, she would still be stuck doing cheap tricks in the steel town bars.. as opposed to expensive prostitution inthe big city.

If you will pardon me being a bit nit picking.. more 'reactionary corruptor'. than radical. Nietzche being (often seen as) deeply right wing / borderline Fascistic rather than left / radical

few visible scars