Where is God???


It makes me mad that He is not doing anything about this coronavirus BS. I just wish He would stop it already!!!!

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Maybe he can't?

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the he isnt the god of the bible. maybe he doesnt exist...

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Kinda hilarious atheists go right to the Bible. Your proof of something you don't believe in is something you don't believe in.

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Yes because I have to counter the points you bring up by mentioning inconsistencies, errors, misconceptions and overall lack of evidence and problems with the TEXT IM ADDRESSING.

I dont show the bible is wrong by analyzing lord of the rings. This is only the most logical thing in the world...but due to your worldview you have lost that ability to critically think because you believe a compilation of self contradicting obvious man made fairy tales is true. of course like pretty much all of them you are a a la carte christian who believes what you want, throws out other parts, and base it on your own personal interpretation. Its why there are thousands and thousands of sects of christianity who all disagree from the mundane to the foundational.

Im guessing you wear clothes made of more than one material? and eat shellfish? amazing how you ignore the parts you dislike. do you believe like the bible says bats are birds? DO you believe the creation story and the order? because it objectively could not have happened that way.

yes I address inconsistencies in a text I dont believe to explore its holes, lies, flaws, misconceptions and problem. again logic...

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Why is the only measuring stick for God the bible?

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Don't Christians bring up the Bible all the time? Bible says don't do this, the Bible says that...

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The only measuring stick for "God" is Christian faith and texts?

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Well, ya. Didn't y'all make the rules?

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Who all?

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Fairy tales believers.

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Im guessing you wear clothes made of more than one material? and eat shellfish? amazing how you ignore the parts you dislike. do you believe like the bible says bats are birds?


This is proof you know nothing.

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its proof ive actually read the bible and know what it says unlike you apparently :s

Every religious person except the most literal fundamentalist (except even that would be impossible given the nonsense the bible says) picks and chooses what they want to follow and ignore.

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I've read the entire bible and I most definitely have a greater understanding than you which you CLEARLY illustrated.

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and yet cant address the two mentions one in Leviticus and one in Deuteronomy about what I mentioned.

im sorry you pick and choose which parts you want to follow and which to ignore. also why is god pro slavery?

amazing how he condemns mundane things like eating shellfish but set out rules of how to treat jewish vs non jewish slave. and instructed his people to kill all the men and non virgins and keep the virgins.

what a moral guy :)

your hate towards anyone more informed to you presenting facts on other topics now makes sense. the religious hate facts and reality. they prefer feelings and faith.

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Jeez! You're sure digging yourself a hole. I'll give you a hint: New covenant.

I love you guys who are too smart for God!! 👍

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hint: why is the old testament there then? hint: Jesus says he comes to fulfill the old covenant not destroy it. hint the new testament is also pro slavery. hint: yet again you are picking and choosing what you like and dont like.

hint: why does gods personality completely change and it constantly contradicts itself. hint: its obvious that the gospels not only mistranslated multiple things (like Mary being a virgin) but contradict one another and get various points wrong. hint: its man made inconsitent nonsense ;)

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Hint: You have no idea what you're talking about.

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omg you didn't even know the clothing rules were part of the new covenant!! hahahahah another Christian who doesn't know his bible!

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Hahahaha!! What will happen if I don't follow "the clothing rule"? What will happen if I break any of the 613 commands? Which one(s) will I go to hell for?

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I dont know because

1. I dont believe your nonsense
2. which interpretation do you follow? there are literally 1000s of sects of christianity that all disagree from many small things to major fundamental theology.

funny that not only is your interpretation the correct one! your specific sect of 1000s also happens to be the one with the correct interpretation! this is without even getting into the 10s of thousands of other religions and gods.

what a coincidence though that you happened to believe in the right god and the right sect! of course none of the other religious people make the exact same claim with equally little evidence!

its almost like.... its man made nonsense..

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There is a "right one" but I'm done with you. You know, casting pearls before the swine and all that.

I will suggest this, though. Seek the truth with all your heart and an open mind. You will find it.

I'm praying for you, whether you like it or not.

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"There is a "right one" but I'm done with you. You know, casting pearls before the swine and all that."

yes which you just happen to believe in. all the other sects of christianity as well as other religions are wrong! what a coincidental! every religious person thinks they have the correct one!

"I will suggest this, though. Seek the truth with all your heart and an open mind. You will find it."

yes the classic "anyone who doesnt agree with my religion doesnt have an open mind. I beleive in the flying spaghetti monster based on faith! he is the one true god! you are wrong!

"I'm praying for you, whether you like it or not."

to bad prayer doesnt work. its been proven. come back to reality. start thinking logically and like a real human. rather than a mindless following drone. it'll only be hard fora bit

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He clearly knows more about this than you do, he’s proven that while you’ve just insulted him and didn’t offer anything of substance at all.

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im glad you follow "the new covenemtn!"

of course the laws of Moses still apply though that's part of it. let me take you through some since you know them already right? and follow them?

-Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16).

-9 Deuteronomy 22:5 - Women not to wear men's clothes or adornments.
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

42 Deuteronomy 22:11 - Not wearing a mixture of wool and linen.
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

you were so knowledgeable in the bible you didn't even know that these were commandments and part of the new covenant.

please tell me again how you are so knowledgeable in the bible and I am not?

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Here's some old testament for you:

Isiah 43:25 - "You have not bought Me sweet cane with your silver, nor satisfied Me with the fat of your sacrifices. But you have burdened Me with your sins; you have wearied Me with your iniquities. 25 I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more. 26 Remind Me, let us argue the matter together. State your case, so that you may be vindicated.…"

Jeremiah 31:34 - “But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. 34 No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”35 Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day, who sets in order the moon and stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the LORD of Hosts is His name:…"

I would suggest some insights in the book of Romans, etc. but your faith in your beliefs has hardened your heart (which is also written about).

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hahahaha awesome so you've cherry picked some passages you liked and ignored ones you dont want to follow.

YOU proved my point :) thanks

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You're seriously delusional.

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im delusional because again, you cherry picked passages you liked and followed. yet ignore ones you dont. like in the new testament telling slaves to listen to their masters. the bible is pro slavery multiple times. so you must be pro slavery right?

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https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/slavery-in-the-new-testament

damn. its almost like if god existed and his word is shown through the bible. he is pro slavery...

OR

its almost like it was all man made and man fabricated. and the people simply held to the cultural norms of the time.

so tough to Figure out

I loved when god created all humans knowing how they would act. then punished them for doing exactly what he knew they would and created them to do. apparently "flooding" the world and killing all the women and children and innocent people

the bible totally makes sense!

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@Brucewayne Avoiding mixed fabrics and shellfish were commands addressed to the Levitical priesthood. They were held to a higher standard for holiness than the common jew. Addressing some of your other points in general: Mosaic law was specifically for jews who had been exiled from Egypt. Christians (jews and gentiles) are under the new covenant and in some ways the commands for Christians are "stricter". Mosaic law said adultery was wrong/sinful but Jesus doubles down and says simply "Looking at a woman with lust is committing adultery with her in your heart". etc.

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Does Allah exist? How 'bout Krishna?

Faith-based answers always seem to change according to specific belief in a certain deity.

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agreed

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So then God isn't all powerful?

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Maybe not. No idea.

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hmmmm, interesting, I was told that he was all powerful and that I shouldn't ask questions about how could a God create a universe out of nothing because he's God and God can "do anything". It sounds like Christians don't really have their stories straight.

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You atheists/agnostics have such a boner for Christianity. It's like it's the only religion to have ever existed. It's not even the worst one.

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Oh trust me, I am not cutting any other religion any slack, just this thread is on Jesus Christ who is the central figure to Christianity so attacking other religions wouldn't make any sense in this arena.

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The original question was about "God".

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Fair enough I guess that applies to Islam, Judaism, etc. as well.

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What's the worst one then?

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In modern times? Islam. Those people can't get out of the Dark Ages. They literally still kill each other - and others - over which version of their religion is the right one.

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so how can you believe something you dont understand but claim you do.

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Who said I believe in God?

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Learn about this Corona Virus Bull Shit.
Report back.

Or pretend to be genuine in your BS posts.

Who gives AF. NOT ME.

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Sorry Tim. I didn't mean to offend you.

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Let me guess, iTs A hOaX?

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Maybe he just moves in mysterious ways.

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what a cop out

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Not necessarily. Parents don't always simply give things to their kids. Bosses don't always give clear directions or guidance.

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both parents and bosses are demonstrably provable and exist. They can be questioned, interviewed and asked things. is incomparable.

God is just what you think and have come up with your mind, that can differ from every other christen and religious person. And yet you have no proof what so ever that god is like this or has any characteristic you give him.

I do love form reading your comments your apologist gymnastics. you know god works in mysterious ways and is direct. yet above in another comment you claim you dont know god is all powerful. funny you know things convenient to your faith and dont know others that show your bible is wrong. it makes it so no one else can disprove it! Any mystery we dont know you just say "well god is mysterious, we don't know hy he does things, he does things for his own reasons, we cant know god". while simultaneously claiming you know certain characteristics he has.

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Parents can be seen and here, therefore they exist and God does not. Pretty shitty logic. Arrogant too. There's lots of things that exist that man has not proven or discovered. Really bad argument, bud. 503 new species were discovered last year: https://www.ecowatch.com/new-species-discovered-2020-2649707928.html.

And that's just our planet. Space? The afterlife? We don't know shit.

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Wasnt my logic at all but nice try being slimy like that. is this how you always debate? I was commenting on you saying how parents dont always simply give things to kids. and I was saying how it was incomparable because parents are easy to prove exist and you cannot do that with god.
hence why I said demonstrably provable.

im not saying god doesnt exist, im saying im not convinced he does. And that there isnt enough evidence for a reasonable person to say he does. This is without even getting into any sort of general theist god (which still has to have characteristics that would need to be described and tested and measured) vs a very specific theorist god with very specific traits, thoughts, actions. which again need even more scrutiny.

"we dont know, therefore god", is not an argument. its god of the gaps. as a pseudo philosopher you know that dont you slimy?

So which god? define your god then prove him. Oh wait you cant :(

""And that's just our planet. Space? The afterlife? We don't know shit." like I said above we dont know therefore god aka god of the caps IS A FALACY. by that "LOGIC" (it isnt logical its a fallacy as I said) anything and everything can and does exist we just dont know it yet.

so therefore you dont know my flying spaghetti monster god doesnt exist! I have faith hes more powerful than your god and wiped him from existence then wiped himself from existence and since he operates outside time and can do anything he made the universe from entirely naturalistic means. you dont know he didn't!! I have faith!

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"like I said above we dont know therefore god aka god of the caps IS A FALACY."

This isn't how science/facts work.

We didn't know the previously undiscoverd 503 species existed. Doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Stop having opinions. You're really bad at it.

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hahah its not an opinion. its how logic works. you really don't know the difference between X doesnt exist and I dont believe X doesnt exist. or in easier terms

LOOOL really? you'd fail a grade 10 philosophy class.

All you used are god of the gaps and other fallacies. you arent cut out for debating, let alone with someone semi educated.

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Humans have freewill. Voters freely chose leaders who ignored warnings and discouraged health safety measures.

You reap what you sow.

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👍

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Everything bad that happens: men's fault.
Everything good that happens: god did it.

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I've heard bad things blamed on God as a punishment.

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if a house catches fire and falls and kills everyone but the bible survives. gods not to blame even though he created the universe and people knowing that would happen. but he is responsible for the "miracle" of saving the bible

how convenient.

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Yeah, you'd think there would be hymns like "Oh what a bastard is the Lord" or "God, if you could die I'd kill you myself!". For those times when someone's kid dies of cancer, or other such misfortunes where free will can't be cited as the cause. In what way are humans at fault when there's an earthquake or a tornado? If you believe all things are the will of the Big Dude in the Sky who else should you blame?

Gods are like politicians. When something good happens, they want to be front and center taking all the credit. When things go sideways anyone or anything is responsible but them. 😎

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What about in countries and places where you have no choice?

The ones that live under the rule of dictators and tyrants that will take your loved ones from you.

The ones that will make you watch as they torture and slaughter your family members in front of you while you watch helplessly.

The ones that will take everything that you think you own unless they have your complete and total loyalty.

Where is their freewill? 🤔

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Most dictators and tyrants come to power because they are popular and supported by a sizeable number of the population aka: free will to choose them as leaders. The reason why the American Founding Fathers wanted an electoral college was to overrule the vote of the majority in case they supported a sweet-talking tyrant.

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I'm referring to "after the fact", eg: after they are dictators and tyrants in power and control, not much left of people's free will to choose otherwise.

Oh, and sometimes they are not voted for, they are self-imposed and politically placed by their most loyal followers, eg. they "seize power" and take control.

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Can you be specific? Dictators and tyrants normally have popular support especially now.

Dictatorships won't last when people grow tired of them.

A better example would've been a monarchy since a king is born into leadership. But, that is gone when people don't want it. Examples: Russia, France and U. S..

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Take your pick:
https://planetrulers.com/current-dictators/

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Countries would be safe from becoming a dictatorship as long as a women is voted in as leader.

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Sometimes dictators are voted in ... initially. At some point the people realize they've taken so much power that they're dangerous and try to vote them out, only to find they can't. If Donald Trump was smarter and more capable than he is we could already have been there in America. The supposed poster child for democracy.

Most Germans didn't want Hitler in power during the war. But by then, you kept your mouth shut out of fear for yourself and your family. There were enough loyal Nazis - and they had most of the guns - along with the gestapo keeping an eye on the population, that a resistance movement from within was impossible for most people. They just kept their heads down, their sieg heils as loud as everyone else's, and waited for the nightmare to end.

It's usually a major economic collapse that ends a strong dictatorship. Because the inner circle and the military, whose loyalty is basically being bought with money, luxuries, and positions of influence starts to abandon their Dear Leader once he has trouble keeping them in the style to which they've grown accustomed.

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Thirty percent of people have an authoritarian mindset that supports dictatorships.

Many moderate Republican politicians have left their party after it transformed into Trumpism. What's left are politicians who are either afraid of the voters or more interested in power rather than continuing a democracy. The next "Republican" candidate will be smarter and more capable than Trump since they would've learned from his mistakes.

Hitler and the Nazi Party were popular before WW2 started. Most Germans were happy when Poland was invaded.

Presently, autocracies are the biggest threat. Some people don't mind living in a dictatorship if they like the dictator.

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If there was a mystical entity god like thing, which there's not, they would not intervene to stop something like Covid-19 considering all the other shit Humans have created and inflicted on each other/the planet.

For arguments sake, let's say there is a god. We are nothing but bacteria in an experiment they probably forgot about.

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If there were such a thing as a god responsible for the whole vast universe, they'd be looking at the big picture. Fates and misfortunes of individuals would fall beneath their notice. Responding to this pandemic has taken a technology that might not have seen practical application for another decade and moved it to the forefront. Studying covid's spread has provided a once in a lifetime opportunity for epidemiologists. We will be better prepared the next time this happens. The omelette of civilization often requires breaking a few eggs. Sucks for the eggs but in the grand scheme of things your children move forward and evolve.

Or we're just entertainment - the ultimate reality TV, and what reality show would be interesting without drama and conflict? Diseases, natural disasters, political polarization, wars, all that fun stuff. 😀

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$10 says we don't learn out lesson and the next legit pandemic hits hard.

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Oh I think we've collectively learned our lesson. We just need to stop voting for leaders who don't believe in science and facts.

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Yeah. Just ones that believe in selective science and facts.

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No such thing as selective science, only good science and bad.

Epidemiology is older even than our understanding of microorganisms. While waiting for modern technology to generate our way out of this, we only needed to break out an old toolkit of strategies - and we weren't able to do that effectively. Most of the same mistakes that were made in 1918 were made all over again in 2020.

A century ago too many cities didn't put masking and what we'd call now social distancing mandates into place quickly enough. Leaders who wanted to keep their economies open or were more focused on the war effort than public safety downplayed and denied. And their cities got slammed.

You know how it became known as the Spanish flu? The media in Spain were the only ones who reported on the disease widely and honestly, and weren't censored under the pretext of undermining wartime morale. Their government didn't spin or BS the story. They were the main voices in the western world talking about it so ... the Spanish flu.

Most cities that DID respond well initially re-opened too soon, people bucked the reimposition of restrictions, held anti-mask protests just like the ones we've seen recently, and the bodies started stacking up. It really is amazing how 102 years of separation made very little difference in public behavior and the outcome we got. We're damn lucky this thing doesn't have a sky high mortality rate! Damn lucky. Its predecessor SARS-CoV-1 in 2003 killed 15% of the young and healthy, and more than 50% of patients over 60. Imagine how things would've gone with all these morons screaming about their personal freedom and a death rate like THAT!

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What do you think Biden's answer would be if he was asked how many genders there are?

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"I don't believe in quantifying things."

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I think we'd be lucky to even get an acknowledgement of the question tbh. He'd probably just stare blankly into space for a couple of seconds and then narrate "I'm going to walk over here now" as he shuffled off to try and find an exit.

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That would still be better than an hour of insane rambling, empty boasting, lashing out at anyone and everyone he's pissed at today, threatening to stage a military coup, and blaming every other nation on the planet except Russia for our ... minor server issues. Literally, you could pluck a random 12 year old off the street and put them in the White House and they'd do at least a slightly better job as President than the looney toon we've got right now.

29 days remaining until the turd is flushed. 😆

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What the hell has that got to do with anything? And how did we go from pandemics to this?

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You're taking about leaders that don't believe in science and facts. I'm pretty sure Biden wouldn't agree there are two genders as it would enrage the woke crowd.

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It's an irrelevancy. I could personally care less how anyone chooses to view their gender. The culture war crap just irritates me, it's a distraction at best and a way for evangelicals to work religion into government. When someone starts spouting off about bathrooms they've lost my interest.

I'm talking about things that actually matter. Pandemic control, environmental science and climate change policy, the general low priority given to many fields of research by the current government, the proliferation of online anti-science conspiracy theory garbage like the anti-vaxxer movement, etc. If we're going to talk about science denialism at least address impactful issues.

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science is science. science is replaced by better more accurate science

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I am of course referring to how certain individuals choose to believe in science and facts when it suits them but ignore it at other times when it's too inconvenient.

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I agree

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That's been a really big problem these last few years, hasn't it?

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If it's a problem, it's a problem, regardless of who is charge. Don't act like Biden is a paragon of virtue and some sort of science and fact savior.

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Biden isn't the guy I would've chosen from that big stage full of twenty somewhat Democratic candidates we started off with. But let's face it - science denialism isn't a both sides do it just the same kind of issue. One party engages in it a whole lot more than the other. They've made it a badge of pride.

It's a huge problem in our society that scientists create the knowledge and new technologies, but politicians and money people are deciding how it all gets used. Individuals whose motives are almost entirely self-serving and shortsighted.

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It begs the question, why was Biden chosen? And why did he pick a VP that got 1% in the preliminaries? before she bailed out of embarrassment?

Anyway, another thing that bothers me is why existing medicine for fighting covid 19 was not fully explored. You have thousands of doctors shouting about Remdesivir and Dexamethasone and ivermectin and they're only slightly staring to gain traction after being ignored. The wrong type of doctors and scientists?

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Biden was chosen because he's the most "centrist" (i.e. corporate friendly) of the original field. Unfortunate, from my perspective, but his stated policy goals are at least a step in the right direction. He's planning to take strong action on climate. Unlike most other issues, we're running out of time on that one, and if he does nothing else that'll be worth the price of admission.

Were you paying attention to the news? There were numerous clinical trials. Unfortunately, a lot of time was wasted studying hydroxychloroquine, which we know doesn't work and has serious health consequences when given to very sick patients. The effect of political pressure overriding science.

Remdesivir helps a little. It's worth giving if you've got some on hand, because it speeds recovery in a lot of patients and frees up that bed a couple of days early, but its impact on mortality is marginal at best. Not a miracle cure. Neither are steroid treatments, although they do help. Plenty of work was done on both treatments and (especially the latter because they're so universally available) they've become standard tools.

The most promising class of therapeutics are the monoclonal antibody based therapies, like the Regeneron cocktail that, perhaps regrettably, saved Donald Trump's life. It also appears to have saved HUD Secretary Ben Carson. These medicines are not available in large quantities though - the result of therapeutics being a low budget priority under this administration. So VIPs get access. Most of us would die without receiving any Regeneron. There was a young boy gravely ill with covid in New Mexico the same week Mr. Carson got his treatment. He deserved it a lot more, but he's dead now.

Doctors and scientists in the CDC and elsewhere were telling the administration hydroxychloroquine was useless as a covid-19 treatment. Proposals were floated for the dramatic scaling up of remdesivir and monoclonal antibody production - which are difficult to synthesize in mass quantities. A good sized budget allocation was needed. These proposals were rejected. Obviously now, we will have the vaccine out and in peoples' arms faster than we could retool manufacturing facilities to make therapeutics. But five or six months ago it could've made a big difference, saved a lot of lives. Just like following the original, un-censored and watered down, CDC health guidelines regarding masking, social distancing, and how to open businesses SAFELY could've saved a lot of lives. What we have aren't the wrong scientists and doctors. It's the wrong "leadership".

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I was under the impression Regeneron access has been improved dramatically. 250k doses delivered. It's just it's not suitable for some patients depending on their stage/condition/hospital capacity.

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It's beginning to get out there, but most patients still don't have access. By the end of January there should be significant quantities shipped out - if they can solve some of the problems surrounding infectious patients being safely treated at infusion centers they can deliver the treatments to most of the people who could benefit. Yes, administering it at the last minute as someone hovers on the brink of death has very limited success. Giving it as early as you can is important.

My problem is, they let this go until the companies themselves could find a way to produce more. We've lost six months because of that. Instead of just mentioning the Defense Production Act in passing the Lord High Orangutan should've suspended normal patent rights - compensate companies for each dose of their treatment you're producing of course, but don't let their limited manufacturing capacity bottleneck supply. They should do the same with the vaccines. But no, we're going to wait until Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna can dribble out enough to vaccinate everyone. Retool a bunch of factories and we could do it by April 1st, instead of late summer or early fall. Look at the rate bodies are piling up and you'll understand just how many lives could be saved on the faster timetable.

No damn leadership. America has been a plane cruising on autopilot without a flight crew for four years.

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I mean, are any countries doing any better when it comes to cutting red tape to get to vaccines/treatment faster? Suspending patent rights has been on the table since the beginning but no one has taken that direction that I'm aware of.

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How do you know what a God - which you don't believe in - would or wouldn't do?

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I know exactly what a god would do, my child. 😇

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Because why would a God allow shit like world wars, genocides, holocausts, cancer, Amy Schumer, terrorism to happen but intervene with something like Covid-19? It makes absolutely no sense.

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Maybe he's mean? There's tons of stories about gods in many religions who can be as mean and petty as any person.

Maybe he can't? He can create life, but can't force it to do things. Parents go through that daily.

Maybe he doesn't want to? Maybe he wants us to have free will or has lost interest in us.

Maybe whatever created us is dead?

Tons of possibilities.

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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

It's interesting you say "Maybe he's mean" assuming god is male and that he is THE god but then go on to say "many religions". It's just more Human projection assuming that our god resembles a Human as it's difficult for some people to process it any other way. Not every religion can be right on who the one true god is so we've already proven that statistically, billions people are worshiping nothing.

Gods are a man made concept. They were invented to answer questions we don't know the answer to. To give reassurance to weak people. Religion is also a handy control mechanism. To take advantage of the desperate and less intelligent people of the world. See religion as weapon of war - middle east, excuse to sexually assault children - catholic church, theft via strong armed donations - US mega churches.

Anyway, I find boiling the concept of god down to "well who/what created god?" stumps most people. This being just existed and then decided one day to create Humans/Earth/the solar system (I don't know the extent to what most religious people believe). It all sounds like nonsense.

I think for me and most of the people I know, once you learn about dinosaurs in primary school, you can see religion for the sham that it is. And don't give me that bullshit about dinosaur fossils being placed there by god to test people. Dinosaurs are simply one of the many things the jokers that wrote religious texts could never plan for.

At the end of the day, there is more evidence that there is no higher being and until things change, I am firmly in the no god camp. I am happy to change my mind. Something I'm sure many religious people couldn't do if somehow we were able to prove there is no god, however possible/impossible that was.

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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

This argument is nonsensical. This typical atheist argument "assumes" God is malevolent because he won´t intervene to prevent "evils", not realising that they are in fact a judgment and consequence of sin. Atheists want free will but won´t accept the repercussions of that free will. The consequences of our sins, is a judgment of God giving us up to our reprobate minds. Romans 1:27-28.

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I don't think that quote is aimed at Atheists.

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It is a common argument brought up by Atheists for why the God of the Bible is "immoral". The Bible verse I quoted is aimed at anyone who is a "sinful human", someone who has not been born again. That makes it clear Atheists are part of this group.

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I can't say I've ever heard an atheist try and use the bible to justify the non existence of god. I'm sure it happens but that kind of thing isn't for me so perhaps it just passes me by.

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Billy, the problem is that your entire argument and any/all biblical verses fall apart when it comes to "children".

Children do not know "evil", children have no concept of "sin", children have no understanding to the consequences of "evil" and "sin". Yet, there is no deity, supreme being, or omnipotent creator that can be excused or justified for directly or indirectly inflicting children with cancer or allowing them to be abused.

As mentioned by RDH, this falls under the "Epicurus Trilemma".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilemma

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That´s because atheists don´t believe in life after death. They assume when a child dies they no longer exist. When God ends the life of a child, he is merely relocating them to a much better place. Why does the line for intervention get drawn at child abuse? What about unborn babies? If there is divine intervention on a large scale, there is no longer free will. Interestingly, you are quick to point out the immorality of child abuse when many atheists would not agree with you.

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I'm pointing out the "suffering" of children in "general"; those two were examples.

It makes no difference to suffering parents/loved ones as to where those children may be "relocated" after they passed, it has nothing to do with it. What matters is their "current" suffering for their children that are inflicted with an excruciatingly slow and painful death inflicted by a virus/disease and their abuse by others.

This has nothing to do with atheists as I never mentioned them. This has nothing to do with unborn babies as I never mentioned them. This has nothing to do with any afterlife place as I never mentioned any. This has nothing to do with free will as I never mentioned it, (unless you include that a supreme being has the "free will" to prevent or cure those "children" from disease and abuse), you know, like the same one that you mentioned on one of your other threads that is able to "prevent" you from "sinning".

Why are you never able to stay "specifically" and "directly" on topic without completely and totally diverging from the precise subjects and topic that has been pointed out?
Perhaps this is the only way of coping and reasoning with the possibility that your deity is sadistically cruel.

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These are answers to your questions. It has everything to do with free will. Evil exists because of free will. Pain and suffering are consequences of sin including in children. Everything I said is relevant. Its strange that atheists will argue the immorality of the Christian God while they have no uniformity in their own moral standards. A fellow atheist, could tell you that paedophilia is okay, and you would have no way of telling him he is wrong, except "because you say so".

"unless you include that a supreme being has the "free will" to prevent or cure those "children" from disease and abuse), you know, like the same one that you mentioned on one of your other threads that is able to "prevent" you from "sinning".

Born again Christians, don´t have 100% free will since they are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, Galatians 5:17.

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So basically, your excuse and justification for evil is due to free will. What about god's free will? in scriptures he is known to cure/heal some while allowing others to suffer "regardless".

It sounds to me that there is no purpose for an evil devil since god is playing both roles at being good at times and sadistically evil/cruel at others even when the sufferers are "innocent children".🤔

Born again Christians, don´t have 100% free will since they are under the influence of the Holy Spirit,

...you mean the same holy spirit that allows them to molest children?

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"...you mean the same holy spirit that allows them to molest children?"

How did I know you would go there? Matthew 7:15, 21-23.

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That verse is another contradiction to free will.
The problem with that parable is that it does not apply to "humans", here is why:

Good people can and have done bad things.
Bad people can and have done good things.

Just because a christian does something "bad" does not mean he/she is unsaved and without the holy spirit. This is the same rubbish excuse I have heard several times from those justifying their immorality and wickedness.

There is no certain method to incontrovertibly prove one way or the other that he/she is lost or saved.
There is only "their word" since their actions (fruits: good or bad) are a guarantee of damnation or salvation.

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Which parable?
Parable of the sower?
How do those verses contradict free will?

"Just because a christian does something "bad" does not mean he/she is unsaved and without the holy spirit. This is the same rubbish excuse I have heard several times from those justifying their immorality and wickedness."

If someone is justifying their wickedness with the Bible, they probably aren´t saved.

How about this?
1 John 3:4-10

"There is no certain method to incontrovertibly prove one way or the other that he/she is lost or saved."

That is correct, a Christian doesn´t necessarily know who is saved and who isn´t but we are given enough spiritual discernment to know that someone who is molesting children has not been born again.

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Matthew 7:15-23...good tree/good fruit, bad tree/bad fruit (unconditionally; which is the opposite of free will).

"they probably aren´t saved."...There is no incontrovertibly method of proving it one way or the other.

1 John 3:4-10.....That verse applies to "everyone"...."saved" or "unsaved" since there is no baseline or specifics that applies as to when/how a sin is eternally condemnable or forgivable. Believers pick and choose based on their subjective understanding and interpretation of scriptures.
That verse and similar verses are one of the excuses that many use to justify their hypocritical behaviors.

You call it "spiritual discernment" and I call it preconceived notions of judgement based solely on the "actions" of others.

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Matthew 7 does not contradict free will. It isn´t even about free will. It is about the saved vs the unsaved. Being saved is conditional.

How does 1 John 3:4-10 apply to "everyone"?

Verse 6: "No one who abides in him (Christ), keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Verse 9: "No one born of God, makes a practice of sinning, for God´s seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Verse 10: "By that it is evident who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil..."

Verse 10 specifically distinguishes two groups. So it can´t apply to "everyone".

The reason you don´t understand scripture is because you haven´t been born again.

Matthew 13:11

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Mat-7...mentions only good trees bearing good fruits and bad trees bearing bad fruits, which I replied that it does not apply to humans since bad people can do good and good people can do bad. The tree/fruits parable implies that it is unconditional and therefore "no free will" to choose good or bad...another scriptural contradiction.

John 3:4-10 applies to everyone because there is no method to prove that someone is saved or lost except by "preconceived notions of judgement" based solely on their actions. As I mentioned, there is no "baseline" or specifics as to what "bad actions" will guarantee that a person is lost just like there are no "good actions" that will guarantee a person is saved as there is no method to verify it one way or the other, it is an impossibility.

So only a born again person can understand scriptures? Who told you that lie?

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Firstly, Matt 7 is not a parable. Its just a passage that uses fruit and trees as metaphors. The good tree is a saved person and the good fruit are works of the saved person. The bad tree and bad fruit are the works of the unsaved person.
There is nothing contradicting free will.

"it does not apply to humans since bad people can do good and good people can do bad."

It does not matter if a bad person can do good. Isaiah 64:6 says our righteous acts are like filthy rags because they have been tainted by our sin. No one is good in God´s sight, Rom 3:23.

"So only a born again person can understand scriptures? Who told you that lie?"

Jesus did.

Matthew 13:10-17

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is not a parable. Its just a passage that uses fruit and trees as metaphors.

That verse was used to allegorically compare a bad person who does bad (bad tree...bad fruits) which implies that only a bad tree can produce bad fruits, the same with good tree/good fruits, it does not apply to people since bad people can and have done good just like good people can and have done bad...eg..a contradiction and objection to "free will".

No one is good in God´s sight"

So that includes "innocent healthy small children" that deserve to be stricken down with some virus/disease. Are you sure you are not confusing a god with a devil? ...not that it matters since they are one and the same.

So jesus told you that only a born again person can understand scriptures?
...and yet the only proof that you can provide are "scriptures"...lol...a lie from lie is still a lie.

The bottom line is that your only argument and reasoning to justify and excuse the malevolent actions of a deity is "free will".

-Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, famines, droughts, landslides, extreme temperatures, volcanic eruptions, and meteors that have been occurring for millions of years which predate humans is the cause of "free will".

-Viruses and diseases that randomly strike down healthy children on a daily basis is the cause of "free will", and that is ok with you?

I can understand "believing" in the possibility of a deity or creator, but it is something different to "worship it", especially when you are capable of "seeing with your own eyes" the cruelty and malevolence that deity is randomly inflicting on innocent healthy children for the sake of "free will". Based on these results, there are no distinctions between a malevolent devil and a benevolent god as they are proving to be one and the same with two sides.

Mat-13:13 can also apply to you: "Though seeing, they do not see". In this case, "you do not see" because you choose not to see.

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Thoses verses are not an allegory. It is not a contradiction of free will either because you have interpreted the metaphors through the eyes of an unbeliever. Humans being bad doesn´t mean we don´t have free will, we have the free will to commit whatever sins we want, when we want. We also have the free will to repent and become born again.

"So that includes "innocent healthy small children" that deserve to be stricken down with some virus/disease. Are you sure you are not confusing a god with a devil? ...not that it matters since they are one and the same."

I have already answered this question.

"The bottom line is that your only argument and reasoning to justify and excuse the malevolent actions of a deity is "free will"."

No the difference is I don´t blame the God of the Bible for the fall of humanity. It is our own depravity and wickedness that puts us under God´s perfect judgment.

"-Hurricanes, tornadoes...which predate humans is the cause of "free will".

They are not the cause of free will, they are the consequences of it. All natural disasters are judgments on our own depravity.

"Viruses and diseases that randomly strike down healthy children on a daily basis is the cause of "free will", and that is ok with you?"

They are consequences of it, not a cause. Knowing they are going to a much better place than here, where they don´t have to suffer and live in eternal joy with the Lord is perfectly okay with me.

"Based on these results, there are no distinctions between a malevolent devil and a benevolent god as they are proving to be one and the same with two sides."

Why do you blame God for the death of children? God kills everyone as a consequence of sin but somehow you have a soft spot for children because they didn´t live "long enough"?
Speaking of dead children, do you picket abortion clinics for prematurely ending the lives of unborn babies? I bet you barely bat an eyelid when someone decides to mutilate their unborn children.

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I can't blame a fantasy or a delusion.

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And yet you can´t help but invest time arguing about "fantasies and delusions".

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They are your fantasies and delusions, not mine.
To me, it is entertainment, just like "lord of the rings", "the hobbit", etc.

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Sorry, that's just dumb. A whole lot of people die in earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes and tornadoes, famines, pandemics, etc. Disasters not of our making which strike at random. Free will has no part to play.

I won't say there's an evil god doing these things to us. It all just ... happens. There's no intent behind it. But yeah, if there were some being somewhere who could give us a quieter planet and simply chooses not to, they WOULD be malevolent - or at least indifferent which amounts to the same thing.

God (or gods) is just mythology created by primitive people who lacked the means to get answers about the world they lived in. So they did what human beings have always done in the absence of solid facts: made shit up. Once its origins fade into history it becomes the revered Ancient Word and people get very angry at those who don't believe in it, fight wars against other groups of people who hold to other "heretical" sets of Ancient Revelations, all that fun stuff. And the blood of the innocent flows freely.

Turns out we don't NEED to invoke invisible men in the sky, or another dimension, or wherever God supposedly dwells, to explain our universe and why things are the way they are. The truth is actually quite a bit more interesting than the vision presented in any centuries or millennia old book of scripture.

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but if god is omniscient, all power and omnipresent he created everything knowing that these things would happen and people would act in the way he created them to. there cant be free will by definition.

meaning he created hitler to do that and he created every peso.

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Natural disasters could be population control. Or indifference. Or he/she/it cannot control the weather.

You people have such a stupid response to anything on this topic. You openly DON'T believe in something and use sources you don't believe in - like religious texts - to prove the non-existence of the thing you don't believe in. "hOw CAn GoD eXisT iF bAd ThInGs HapPeN?! i tHoUgHt hE knEw eVerYtHiNg?!? derp derp. "bUt ThE BiBlE sAys...." Shut the fuck up, you don't believe in the Bible, Quran, or any other religion, stop quoting them. You fucking dopes.

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Clearly you didn't read my comment very carefully, since I never quoted anything. Work on your reading comprehension skills ... dope. 🤪

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You literally talked about it, LOL:

"Once its origins fade into history it becomes the revered Ancient Word..."

"The truth is actually quite a bit more interesting than the vision presented in any centuries or millennia old book of scripture."

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Talking about scriptures and traditions in general is not the same as quoting individual passages of a text and using them to make a point. You literally cannot discuss religion without referring to customs, traditions, and mythologies - that's what religion is genius!

If you're going to play the role of heckler, at least be witty and intelligent about it.

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We were discussing "God", not religion. God doesn't "not exist" because religion might be wrong about him, ya doofus. You're sitting there all proud, "But the Bible says..." Forget the Bible. You don't believe in the Bible. You're not proving anything.

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And you're still not paying attention. I never even used the word Bible (until just now). Didn't mention it, didn't quote it. So I have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. Clearly, neither do you.

You've got some kind of chip on your shoulder. Fabulous. Good for you. Don't take it out on us, or call us names. I don't refer to you as a rambling dipѕhit - even if the thought crosses my mind - so kindly refrain from substituting insults for logic.

I'm not a believer for the very simple reason that we don't need gods or other magical beings to explain our world. There is no indication any such things exist and people can't even describe them in ways that aren't full of inconsistencies and outright contradictions. Which is the reason SOME people use scriptures and quotations from those texts to illustrate the folly of various belief systems. It can be a useful approach, I just don't usually argue that angle.

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Billy Slater apparently doesn't know what "nonsensical" means. The comment,

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."

is logical, admittedly a weak point in religion. Hundreds of thousands of people who may have died from corona virus, not to mention millions who die of other things, are not all so sinful they deserve to suffer and have their lives cut short. If that's god's will, he is malevolent and sadistic. Billy's citing "Romans" to prove he's right is a joke. It's just from a book made up by a bunch of dudes who were either ignorant and superstitious, or trying to manipulate and control the ignorant, superstitious masses. It looks like it succeeded in Billy's case.

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Its not logical at all because it makes a judgment about a moral standard from someone that does not have a "moral standard" to judge by.
Secondly, it makes the assumption that God is malevolent because he does not intervene but if God intervened every time someone wronged him and his laws/commands, the person making the assumption wouldn´t have the free will to make this argument in the first place.

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Amy Schumer in that list made my day 😉 Thanks

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Thoughts and prayers for anyone who's had to sit through her attempts at comedy/acting.

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which god? which religion and which sect? amazing how out of tens of thousands of religions and god and thousands of sects of christianity, all believers think they were born in the correct version. what a coincidence!

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If only the Bible had mentioned pestilence and such...

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It might have been his doing...

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Last I saw him was down on the corner of Pico and Sepulveda selling bags of oranges.

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How much?
Can you grab me a bag?

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