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Josephus on Jesus from The Antiquities of the Jews written around 93AD


Book 18 Chapter 3

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews[8] were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,[9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;[10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty.


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What about it?

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See below. I split it up because of Moviechat's limit on the size of posts.

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This is the famous passage in Book 18 Chapter 3 of 'The Antiquities of the Jews' written by Josephus ( 37-100AD ) some sixty years after the death of Jesus.

Notice in paragraph 2 how detailed his writing is and how his narrative doesn't deviate.

Paragraph 3 suddenly introduces Jesus and heaps praise upon him and promotes his works and his followers. But there is none of Josephus' detailed and methodical description. He doesn't tell us who Jesus was or explain anything about him in a historical context.

Paragraph 4 then proceeds as normal in the usual style of Josephus. In fact if you leave out paragraph 3 and just read on from paragraph 2 to 4 you wouldn't notice anything amiss.

The obvious conclusion is that paragraph 3 was plonked into the text by a Christian afterwards. This is one of the reasons why the passage is regarded as a forgery.



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Its a shame the original manuscripts don´t still exist so your theory would be instantly debunked.

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Be careful what you wish for, Billy.

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Who knows what the Catholic Church has locked up in the archives of the Vatican.

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Is there any particular reason you are desperate for Jesus to not have existed? Are you scared he might have been real and therefore the Bible might be truth?

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Is there any particular reason you won't actually engage in a discussion about Josephus on Jesus but instead are trying to deflect from the issue and make this all about me ?

I seem to remember you saying something along the lines that the overwhelming majority of scholars regard the passage in Josephus that refers to Jesus as being genuine and authentic. Would you care to come back to the subject and say something about that ?


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I am curious to know what your motivations since you seem to post a lot regarding Christ and your MO is to try and debunk whatever proof there might be to his existence, so what´s wrong with asking what your motivation is?
I am not getting into a back and forth about whether its real or fake, I know the truth, Jesus is real. You deny the truth and aren´t open to it being the truth so I won´t engage in this pointlessness.

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No you are desperate to deflect attention away from the issue and so resort to making a personal attack on me. It's called 'ad hominem'

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

and in terms of argument it is the last refuge of a scoundrel. You can't refute the argument ( don't even want to engage with it ) so you resort to questioning my personal motivation instead.


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Excuse me. Where is this supposed "personal attack"? Questioning your motivation for repeatedly trying to debunk Christ is a legitimate question. I am curious. That isn´t a personal attack.
Secondly, I don´t refute your argument because its pointless to. What I say will not sway your opinion. You are free to say and believe what you want but I am not going to be suckered into a pointless argument. Sorry, you will have to find someone else to satisfy your urges to argue.

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The last thing you are is curious. You're not interested in trying to establish the truth of things. You would rather turn a blind eye than do that.

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You are right, I´m not trying to establish truth, because I know the truth. I don´t need to establish anything.

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Simply saying that you know the truth is not the same as actually knowing the truth.

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The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. Hopefully you will get to experience it one day. It´s wonderful.

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I have had three powerful "religious experiences" so you don't need to hope for me.

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Religious experiences are not the same as having the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.

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Are you saying that having the "Holy Spirit dwelling in you" is not a "religious experience" ?

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I am referring to your religious experiences. And an experience implies that its not ongoing. The Holy Spirit dwelling in a believer is permanent.

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Ignoring a direct and simple question and making ludicrous and unverifiable claims again. Nothing to see here.


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I think the question was answered. Did I claim anything I said was "verifiable"?

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I asked you if having the "Holy Spirit dwelling in you" is not a "religious experience" ? And you didn't answer the question.


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And I answered it isn´t because an experience is an event that ends.

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Oh I see, it depends what you mean by "experience".

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The moment of conversion is an experience but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn´t because its permanent.

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How do you know it's permanent ?

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Scripture.

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Otherwise known as dogma:
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

Thanks that tells me all I need to know.


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What makes your three "religious experiences" any more verifiable?

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"Religious experiences" are relatively common and so don't need backing up in the way that your grandiose claim that the Holy Spirit dwells in you permanently does.


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How is it "grandiose"? Every born-again Christian has the Holy Spirit.

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How does having the Holy Spirit dwelling in you manifest itself ? Do you constantly feel it's presence, or only sometimes, or never ? Are you full of grace ? Do you glow in the dark ? Or is it accompanied by no discernible signs at all other than that you "know" it to be so ?


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I can tell you everything you want to know about my conversion and the Holy Spirit if you promise to be nice and not mock me afterwards.

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Well I've already told you what I want to know and I don't agree to your "terms and conditions" so either answer my questions or don't.


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Lol, you're a hard man, Quasi. :D

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Can you tell ‘me’? I won’t mock you, I would find it really interesting.

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What would you like to know?

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What was your Holy Spirit conversion like?

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Its a long story. Becoming a Christian doesn´t happen overnight even though technically the conversion happens instantly, there is vital background info. It needs to be put in context. Maybe I should create a separate thread. Are you that interested?

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Sure, start a new one and I’ll dive in!

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