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It's all about the infrastructure behind it. Religion in general comes from a lack of education. Like you said in your other thread, Christianity is for stupid people. As education continues, religion dies. Islam is also a dying religion except in parts of the world like the Middle East where education barely exists.
There are many places outside the Middle East where Islam is indeed a religion of peace, just like there are places in the world like Venezuela where Christianity is extremely violent. There are Christian regimes in Africa constantly warring with each other, bringing the death tolls way up. Does that make Christianity a violent religion in the modern day? It shouldn't. Yet we label Islam negatively simply because of the Middle East's influence, and we pay billions to the Middle East to ensure it stays that way. It's a giant mess.
"Islam is also a dying religion except in parts of the world like the Middle East where education barely exists. "
Actually it is the fastest growing religion in the world, so not sure where you got that from.
"There are many places outside the Middle East where Islam is indeed a religion of peace"
Sure, there are places where Muslims have a peaceful interpretation of Islam but the real and original Islam is not a religion of peace. Muhammad was not a peaceful man.
"here are Christian regimes in Africa constantly warring with each other, bringing the death tolls way up. Does that make Christianity a violent religion in the modern day?"
They are Christian but that doesn't mean what they do is justified by their religion.
The KKK are Christians but they don't commit crimes IN THE NAME of Christianity.
Nowhere within this religion does it call upon it's followers to wage war on the non believers.
Jesus was a peaceful man whereas Mohammad was not.
"Yet we label Islam negatively simply because of the Middle East's influence"
No, we label Islam negatively because we have look at the origins of the religion and the actions of the prophet Mohammad.
Not mention the actions of the Islamists to follow Islam to it's very core.
"Actually it is the fastest growing religion in the world, so not sure where you got that from."
Only in places where education barely exists. In Europe, it is growing, but it has not reached Christianity, and Christianity is dying in Europe.
"Sure, there are places where Muslims have a peaceful interpretation of Islam but the real and original Islam is not a religion of peace."
Right. Nor were Christianity or Judaism. The three Abrahamic religions are nearly identical and equally violent. However, they are malleable. And because of it, it makes sense to criticize what they are rather than what they were.
"They are Christian but that doesn't mean what they do is justified by their religion."
EXACTLY! Now you're getting it. ISIS uses Islam as a recruitment tool so they can have government power like they had under Saddam Hussein's regime. Saudi Arabian royals teach that exact form of Wahhabism so they can keep their people under their royal boot while they shake hands with the United States and Israel.
If it's all about religion, Israel and ISIS would not be on the same side against Iran and Syria. Jews and Muslims, remember? But it's not about religion. It's about obtaining a power system. And in the Middle East, where there's a natural resource under their feet worth billions, everybody wants a piece of it.
"No, we label Islam negatively because we have look at the origins of the religion and the actions of the prophet Mohammad."
Bullshit. We label Islam negatively because of 911, which not only came from the Middle East, but came from our greatest ally in the Middle East... Saudi Arabia.
"Right. Nor were Christianity or Judaism. The three Abrahamic religions are nearly identical and equally violent. However, they are malleable. And because of it, it makes sense to criticize what they are rather than what they were."
Islam has not evolved over time like other religions have. Islam is the still the same violent, oppressive ideology it has always been. Hence why today, it is Muslims who are blowing up kids at concerts, attacking people on the street with machettes, ploughing vans through crowds of people, raping young white girls etc...And not Christians, Sikhs, Hindus etc...
And before you try to make the point that people of other religions commit these kind of acts too....The difference is they don't do it IN THE NAME of their religion. There is nothing within the religions that justify it like their with Islam.
"EXACTLY! Now you're getting it."
Actually, it is you who isn't getting it lol...I mean quite literally you seemed to of misunderstood my point.
The KKK HAPPEN TO BE christian....But they do not do what they do because of anything that is written within their religion.....Whereas ISIS....Actually do.
It seems like you don't really know much about the actual religion we are discussing...Rather you just seem to be reciting things you have seen in propaganda videos.
I'd recommend you actually read some books on Islam, especially if you wanna go out of your way to be an apologist.
"ISIS uses Islam as a recruitment tool so they can have government power like they had under Saddam Hussein's regime. Saudi Arabian royals teach that exact form of Wahhabism so they can keep their people under their royal boot while they shake hands with the United States and Israel."
It is not entirely about religion but when it comes to the issues we within the UK and Europe. It is absolutely about religion.
"Islam has not evolved over time like other religions have."
BINGO. Like I said in my very first sentence. Infrastructure "evolves" religion, and Christianity has had at least 200 years of an educational head start.
"The KKK HAPPEN TO BE christian....But they do not do what they do because of anything that is written within their religion.....Whereas ISIS....Actually do."
Oh come on, kid. Don't sit there and pretend like you didn't know Jews were the enemy of Christians for nearly two millennia.
The KKK and the Nazis used Christianity to justify their persecution of Jews.
ISIS uses Islam to recruit Muslims living in a post-911 world where people make judgments like "Jesus was a peaceful man whereas Mohammad was not." If you read the bible and you come away with "Christianity is peaceful" then you need a lobotomy. But you didn't read the bible, so I get it. You are basing Christianity on people who don't believe the bible, who just gloss over it to focus on the happy times with Jesus. I'll bet you didn't even know that Jesus plays an identical role in the Quran. Yup. He's in both texts.
"It is not entirely about religion but when it comes to the issues we within the UK and Europe. It is absolutely about religion."
Yeah, get used to backpeddling. You're gonna be doing more of it. :)
What point do you think you are proving here?? lol
So rather than trying to prove that Islam is a religion of peace, you are just trying to prove that other religions are not peaceful? I should've seen that coming really..
""Christianity is peaceful" Don't misquote me, mate lol I said Jesus was a peaceful man....Not Christianity was peaceful.
"I'll bet you didn't even know that Jesus plays an identical role in the Quran. Yup. He's in both texts."
Yes, I am aware of that actually...
Do you really think I would have made a discussion post about Islam if I didn't know anything about it?
"Yeah, get used to backpeddling. You're gonna be doing more of it. :)"
So far you have not made 1 single argument as to why Islam is a religion of peace.
I never saw him trying to argue that Islam was a religion of peace, but only that it comes down to interpretation in the region where it's peddled as to whether its interpreted as a religion of peace.
share"it comes down to interpretation in the region where it's peddled as to whether its interpreted as a religion of peace."
It does not come down to interpretation. There is only one correct way to interpret the religion.
Islam is not as cryptic as you may think, you only have to read the scripture to understand this.
Some people interpret it peacefully, yes. But that does not mean that Islam is a peaceful religion.
A lot of muslims will tell you extremists have hijacked their religion and made it violent.
Actually, it is the other way around...
That's total nonsense. It always comes down to interpretation. You have no idea what you're even talking about. Who are you to say that only your reading of the Quran is the correct way to interpret it? You're no better than an extremist to claim there's only one literal interpretation which is the way YOU choose to read it. Christians used to take the bible literally too. Guess how they moderated during the Enlightenment?
i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-a-t-i-o-n.
You clearly haven't spent much time thinking about this topic or religion in general for you to say what you just said.
Another ignorant American, I'm guessing.
All you have done there is insult me, you haven't put forward any argument or given any valid points.
There is only ONE correct interpretation of Islam, kid.
When Mohammad founded this religion, he did not intent to make things open to intepretation.
It is all pretty clear, all you have to go is go back n look at the original scripture.
You say that is nonsense and I would bet you don't know a single thing about Islam.
"Christians used to take the bible literally too. Guess how they moderated during the Enlightenment? "
By reforming the religion which is something that will never happen with Islam.
Muslims do not want their religion to be reformed.
"ou're no better than an extremist to claim there's only one literal interpretation which is the way YOU choose to read it."
Yeah, because I speak the truth about Islam, that means I'm just as bad as the extremists who murder people.....Are you fucking serious?? There's no way anyone could be that stupid!
"You clearly haven't spent much time thinking about this topic or religion in general for you to say what you just said."
I've been studying Islam for over 10 years, kid......What exactly do YOU know about it?
What you have been told by your friendly Muslim neighbor or what you've heard on the news, I'd imagine.
I'm gonna copy n paste something to you I said to someone else to save me typing it again...
Some facts about Islam.
1. A woman's testimony is worth only half of a man's.
If a woman is raped, she cannot press charges unless she has 2 male witnesses. This is a part of Sharia Law.
2. If a woman does not do as her husband commands, he is allowed to "strike her" Wife beating is encouraged in the Quran.
3. There is no age of consent within Islam. If a father wants to give away his 6 year old daughter to a 50 year old man....That is perfectly fine.
4. Dogs are seen as evil, unclean creatures. One of the first things the prophet mohammad did when he relocated to Medina was have his army slaughter every single dog in the land (He was a lovely man of course)
5. In Sharlia law, leaving Islam is punishable by death. There is no freedom with Islam.
6. The punishment for adultery is stoning to death. That is also apart of sharia Law.
7. Since the origin of Islam, over 260 Millions non believers have been murdered IN THE NAME of this "religion"
8. In Europe and the UK, terror acts are commited almost EVERY DAY in the name of Islam...
9. The prophet Mohammad had 800 Jews beheaded, while he stood back and watched with his SIX YEAR OLD wife....Simply for not being Muslim.
10. Between 85 and 90% of rape gangs in the Uk are Muslims....Even though they only make up roughly 7% of the population. DO THE MATH!
This is because the prophet encouraged his army to take non Muslim women as their sex slaves. All explained in the Hadiths (The documented words and actions of Mohammad)
11. Do I need to go on?
THESE THINGS ARE NOT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION, YOU IGNORANT FOOL!
All that time you've supposedly spent studying a religion hasn't made you any more knowledgeable about religion. Islam is just dead text on a page. It's up to its followers to decide how to interpret those texts.
"By reforming the religion which is something that will never happen with Islam.
Muslims do not want their religion to be reformed."
This is why you're ignorant. it's not 'Muslims' in general don't want their religion to be reformed. Some do, some don't. It's the Saudi government that won't allow for anything other than their hard line Wahhabi and Salafi infused doctrine of Islam which they then export to the rest of the Sunni world, which makes up close to 90% of the Islamic demographic. They do and have executed those that have tried to offer competing interpretations and do so in order to cynically maintain their power.
Learn a little about the geopolitics behind religion before making such a fool out of yourself kid.
"Islam is just dead text on a page. It's up to its followers to decide how to interpret those texts."
lol Wrong. People still follow this text, therefore it is not dead...
"Learn a little about the geopolitics behind religion before making such a fool out of yourself kid."
LMAO that is hilarious! How about you learn a little about the ACTUAL religion before you go out of your way to defend something you obviously don't know a thing about, sanctimonious, CLICHE of a lefty!
Muslims IN GENERAL do not want reform. Some do, yes but the majority don't.
Do you know why? Because they see Mohammad as the perfect man.
Mohammad stated many times in islamic scripture that the words of Allah are absolute.
Islam cannot be reformed. It will never be reformed.
You cannot change something that is considered to be perfect.
So, yeah....Maybe learn a little about the religion you choose to defend, before continuing to make a such of fool of yourself.....kid.
By any chance, are you American?
share"lol Wrong. People still follow this text, therefore it is not dead..."
Learn to read. The text is dead. It's the followers are the ones who determine what it means. That's what I said the first time, but your problem is you can't read.
"How about you learn a little about the ACTUAL religion before you go out of your way to defend something you obviously don't know a thing about, sanctimonious, CLICHE of a lefty!"
I'm not defending anything. I'm pointing out your ignorance of geopolitics behind Islam. I'm very aware of the problems and dangers of Islam. What I find hilarious is your ridiculously verbose texts as if you're actually educating me about Islam when you're not. Everyone already knows that shit. It's obvious you're a rube who just learned about it for the first time and so you think you're educating anyone here when all you're doing is regurgitating old news.
Where you and I differ is your conviction that Muslims are incapable of reform and undergoing their own Enlightenment. That's absolute nonsense. For Muslims to be open to reform they have to be aware of alternatives, and when the act of openly questioning the Quran is a death sentence in many of these countries, that's not going to happen. Again, it's a problem of geopolitics.
I'm a fan of Sam Harris and British ex-Muslim and now committed activist and reformer Maajid Nawaz and they've spent a lot more time thinking about this issue than you have. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about or you'd know that with 1.3 billion Muslims you're not going to be able to convert them all to atheism, nor is the solution to kill them all. Your ignorance is hilarious kid.
"Learn to read. The text is dead. It's the followers are the ones who determine what it means. That's what I said the first time, but your problem is you can't read. "
Have you even read any Islamic scripture for yourself?
If you had you would know it is not as cryptic as you seem to think it is.
For example, it states in the Quran, quite clearly to strike your wife if she doesn't obey you....There is no peaceful way to interpret these kind of verses.
All these violenct verses would need to be completely removed.
"I'm not defending anything. I'm pointing out your ignorance of geopolitics behind Islam. I'm very aware of the problems and dangers of Islam. What I find hilarious is your ridiculously verbose texts as if you're actually educating me about Islam when you're not. Everyone already knows that shit. It's obvious you're a rube who just learned about it for the first time and so you think you're educating anyone here when all you're doing is regurgitating old news."
No, clearly not everyone knows about this shit...And I've been informed on Islam for a long time.
"What's even more hilarious about how sanctimonious you are in your absolute ignorance. How would you know this? Did you poll them?"
Polls have been done in the country, yes....So, there's that lol.
They don't believe there is anything wrong with their religion and that the violent verses in the Quran only relate to times of war.
Maajid Nawaz believes Islam can be reformed but he is just one person and most Muslims seem to disagree with him.
"It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about or you'd know that with 1.3 billion Muslims you're not going to be able to convert them to atheism, nor is the solution to kill them all."
Not once did I say they would be converted to atheists, nor did I suggest they should be killed...I am not an extremist simply because you state I am.
The only point I am making is that Islam is a threat to the west.
Not Christianity, Buddism, Sikhism or any other religion. Islam.
This is something a lot of people refuse to believe, hence why I make the post.
"Have you even read any Islamic scripture for yourself?
If you had you would know it is not as cryptic as you seem to think it is."
Of course I have, nor did I ever say it was cryptic. But you're revealing your ignorance of Old Testament texts being just as brutal and graphic, and that these texts were treated as the literal word of "God" by Christians before they underwent their Enlightenment. Any divergence was deemed heretical by the Catholic Church and followers executed. The book of Deuteronomy has very specific verses on when to stone a wife or daughter to death, or children for being disobedient. There are a ton of very explicit rules on when it's appropriate to take slaves, and how to treat one's slave. But the great Schism and subsequent Enlightenment allowed less literal interpretations of Christian scripture to flourish and the advent of modernity means moderate Christians today conveniently disregard barbaric parts of biblical scripture that no longer make any sense.
Islam is presently being prevented from any sort of reform by theocratic governments who act like the Catholic Church did when they executed heretics pre-Enlightenment. But all you need to do is look to the Muslims in cosmopolitan cities that have joined the modern world, like Dubai, or in the countries of Bahrain or Jordan to be aware that Muslim populations are capable of moderating their views with the right types of governments that legally allow alternatives. Even of the Muslims that haven't, so what? That doesn't preclude their kids and future generations from modernizing and shedding adherence to barbaric texts in the Quran as they join the modern world. Its the theocracies that need reforming.
"The only point I am making is that Islam is a threat to the west."
I'm skeptical that anyone who has any knowledge of religion isn't aware of this. Like I mentioned, the anti-western Salafi elements of Sunni Islam are there for all to see, courtesy of the Saudi government.
I am not ignorant about the old testiment, you will see I have address this already in other posts.
But Christianity is not comparable to Islam.
"Islam is presently being prevented from any sort of reform by theocratic governments who act like the Catholic Church did when they executed heretics pre-Enlightenment. But all you need to do is look to the Muslims in cosmopolitan cities that have joined the modern world, like Dubai, or in the countries of Bahrain of Jordan to be aware that Muslim populations are capable of moderating their views with the right types of governments that legally allow alternatives."
I am aware of this and I am not saying Muslims are not capable of reform but evidence suggests that the majority of Muslims in the UK do not want reform.
If there is any chance of reform, it wont be happening any time soon.
All I am currently concerned about is how Islam affects my country.
"Bullshit. We label Islam negatively because of 911, which not only came from the Middle East, but came from our greatest ally in the Middle East... Saudi Arabia. "
Ah, you are American lol that explains it....
Do you realize 9/11 was not the first terrorist attack commited by Muslims in the west?
Where I am from we have terror commited by Muslims IN THE NAME OF ISLAM almost everyday!
Do you know how many attacks we get from Christians, Jews, Hindus etc? Zero.
I'm going to copy and paste something I said in another post...
"Do you realize 9/11 was not the first terrorist attack commited by Muslims in the west?"
Islamic terrorism truly began due to our (and England's) involvement in Iran in 1953, which is also the latter half of the 20th century. But 9/11 is the modern-day reason for the negative sentiment toward Islam.
The reason the Middle East is such a "holy land" is because religion has greater influence than education over there.
And the reason the terrorism is so high is because there is a a constant battle for a natural resource beneath the "holy land" that grants instant wealth.
" 9/11 is the modern-day reason for the negative sentiment toward Islam. "
Maybe in the USA but not over here...I promise you that.
"Religion of peace"
Some facts about Islam:
1. A woman's testimony is worth only half of a man's.
If a woman is raped, she cannot press charges unless she has 2 male witnesses. This is a part of Sharia Law.
2. If a woman does not do as her husband commands, he is allowed to "strike her" Wife beating is encouraged in the Quran.
3. There is no age of consent within Islam. If a father wants to give away his 6 year old daughter to a 50 year old man....That is perfectly fine.
4. Dogs are seen as evil, unclean creatures. One of the first things the prophet mohammad did when he relocated to Medina was have his army slaughter every single dog in the land (He was a lovely man of course)
5. In Sharlia law, leaving Islam is punishable by death. There is no freedom with Islam.
6. The punishment for adultery is stoning to death. That is also apart of sharia Law.
7. Since the origin of Islam, over 260 Millions non believers have been murdered IN THE NAME of this "religion"
8. In Europe and the UK, terror acts are commited almost EVERY DAY in the name of Islam...
9. The prophet Mohammad had 800 Jews beheaded, while he stood back and watched with his SIX YEAR OLD wife....Simply for not being Muslim.
10. Between 85 and 90% of rape gangs in the Uk are Muslims....Even though they only make up roughly 7% of the population. DO THE MATH!
This is because the prophet encouraged his army to take non Muslim women as their sex slaves. All explained in the Hadiths (The documented words and actions of Mohammad)
11. Do I need to go on?
Tell me again how peaceful Islam is, please.
And before you go trying justify all of this by mentioning other religions, keep in my mind.....These things are still relevant today.
All of that is on par with the fire and brimstone of the bible. It's just that people don't practice the real bible any more, because education has taught them not to.
"10. Between 85 and 90% of rape gangs in the Uk are Muslims....Even though they only make up roughly 7% of the population. DO THE MATH!"
You're not talking homegrown Muslims though. You're talking about third-world Muslims who are suddenly trying to fit in with a first world. I've already admitted that third-world Muslims are on a far more primitive level due to a lack of infrastructure in those regions.
The only way to draw a comparison would be to take warring Christian blood diamond regimes from Africa and bring them to an Islamic first world. You would get the same results.
"All of that is on par with the fire and brimstone of the bible. It's just that people don't practice the real bible any more, because education has taught them not to. "
Exactly, this is why the violence in the bible is no longer relevant and not a valid argument to use to justify the violence within Islam. .....Like so many people seem to do.
Since you agree that Christianity has changed due to increased education, why assume that Islam won't or can't? It makes no sense. Islam didn't get the educational head start that Christianity did. Christianity was off fighting Jews, persecuting its own people for disbelieving, provoking them to create America, and then realizing their mistakes of that persecution. Islam had none of that to sculpt it. It was stuck in a desert.
shareBecause Muslims don't want Islam to be reformed.
Mohammad is seen as the perfect man to Muslims.
There was a few polls done in the UK which showed only a very, very small percentange of Muslims actually want Islam reformed.
The only Muslim I have ever know to suggest reform is Maajid Nawaz and he seems to be hated my most other Muslims..
"Because Muslims don't want Islam to be reformed."
Uneducated Muslims don't want Islam to be reformed. Just like uneducated Christians are more likely to be fundamentalists and do not want it reformed.
"There was a few polls done in the UK which showed only a very, very small percentange of Muslims actually want Islam reformed."
It does not matter how many polls in the UK say yes to Sharia Law. Sharia Law, in its Middle Eastern form, will never become a thing in Europe. The infrastructure simply does not allow it. The only way Sharia Law exists there is in a watered-down version of itself like Christianity in the US.
I didn't mention Sharia law, I said most Muslims don't want reform lol.
I don't believe it will ever happen.
It was reformed in Saudi Arabia and Iran up to the early 1950s. Saudi Arabia had become secular and Iranian women were wearing western clothes and driving cars. Then the US and England messed it up with their desire for oil.
The people of those countries are zealots because their governments want them to be. It's all infrastructure. However, their governments are not nearly as zealous. That is how the Sunnis of Saudi Arabia and Turkey shake hands with the Jews of Israel. That is how the Shiites of Iran shake hands with secular Russia and the secular Assad family in Syria.
But the people of those countries all fall in line to the religion. They do it because they were told from birth to do it. But it is not a belief system that the governments actually follow or practice. It's all bullshit to maintain power over the natural resource that gives them instant wealth.
Hey, I don't want Saudi Arabia having libraries full of Wahabism, and television programs dedicated to it. I think the US should demand they shut all of that down. But we don't. We and our politicians completely look away at the Saudi beheadings (mostly against Iranians) while simultaneously complaining about how bad Iran is... because the Saudis/Israel don't get along with Iran. The whole thing is disgusting.
It wont be reformed in the UK. You can't even openly critisize Islam over here.
We are well and truly fucked.
By the way, for furture ref....You aren't supposed to change the topic of the "change my mind" discussion lol.
Anyway, promise I am not running away from the conversation, it's been a long day n I'm ready to unwind n get off my computer now, so I will reply to any other comments you leave tomorrow.
"By the way, for furture ref....You aren't supposed to change the topic of the "change my mind" discussion lol."
If the territory's infrastructure is a peaceful one, Muslims are peaceful. It's not changing the topic. It's changing your mind on where peace comes from. It doesn't come from religion. Never has.
Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have histories rooted in violence of each other trying to claim they are the one true Abrahamic religion. Primarily, it was Judaism and Islam for the longest time, and then Christianity appeared as the cool kids club of the Mediterranean. It was self-defeating as they progressed, eventually creating another country on the other side of the planet to avoid persecution. Muslims had no such ability. They were stuck in the desert holy land where all the Abrahamic nonsense started. And they too managed to progress away from fundamentalism. Then the shit hit the fan when money entered the game.
Once all first world countries finally stop dousing the holy land with billions to buy the underlying oil, the violence mysteriously goes away. And when that happens, the stalwarts of radicalism: Saudi Arabia and Iran, will become secular... again... just like they were in the early half of the 20th century before the discovery of petroleum.
Also, like any religion, Islam becomes a religion of violence if it has a religious enemy to defeat. Right now in the Middle East, Islam is at war... with Islam. If you give an ISIS soldier a gun with three bullets, and put him in a room with a Jewish Israeli, a Christian American, and a Shiite Iranian... the ISIS soldier shoots the Iranian three times and throws the gun at him. Is it purely the religion? Or is there, not just a little, but a lot more going on there? Hmmmm....
ISIS' message to the world: Come all ye who have been persecuted by Jews and Christians. Join us in our quest to destroy.... Syria, Iraq and Iran.
Lulz
Look, I am not suggesting that other religions have not been violent at some point in history.
But the fact is TODAY, Islam is the violent religion in question.
I know you are American because you seem to think 9/11 is the only significant Islamic terrorist attack.
Your country doesn't currently face the same issues that ours does.
And yes, Islam does play a big part in these issues. If you were more informed on the religion and it's roots and the issues from Muslims in the UK and Europe than you would understand. Islam is a threat to the nation. Any EX Muslim will tell you that.
"It's changing your mind on where peace comes from. It doesn't come from religion. Never has. "
Islam still plays a role in this, it is not that black n white. It doesn't stem from just one issue. If we are discussing violence in the middle east, of course it doesn't just come down to religion.
But it is a fact that Muslim terrorists, murder non muslims because they have been brainwashed by their religion and/or a muslim preacher.
To suggest it has nothing to do with the religion Islam is simply false.
Of course this is not relevant to my original question.
"Islam is not a religion of peace"
Instead of trying to change my mind on this, you have tried to change my mind on something in which you don't even know my opinion on? lol
"If the territory's infrastructure is a peaceful one, Muslims are peaceful"
I am not talking about Muslims as people, I am talking about Islam as a religion.
I'm sorry but if you can't make the distinction between then 2, then you do not understand Islam.
A lot of Muslims are peaceful, yes I think we can all agree on that...
But you cannot judge a religion based on the words and actions of moderate Muslims.
People who don't actually know much about their own religion.
Nor can you judge it on the actions of the extremists....The only way you can fairly understand Islam is by looking at the life of the prophet Mohammad and reading the original scripture.
And just to journey back to this comment:
"All of that is on par with the fire and brimstone of the bible."
Thinking about this....I'm not sure any of those things are "on par" with fire n brimstone of the bible!
You believe the suggestion of hell is just as bad as allowing children to get married?
Just as bad as branding all women as inferiors?
Mohammad stated hell is full of women who have disobeyed their wives.
He saw women as objects and this is the man who Muslims are suppposed to look up to..
This why wife beating is so common in the Muslim community.
A good friend of mine was married to a Muslim man for around 10 years and he made her life a living hell.
My girlfriend is an ex Muslim and she experienced a lot of violence from her father towards her and her mother. I am not suggesting every Muslim man beats his wife but it IS common.
1 example of how this is justified by their religion:
Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.
Every religion has a hell but but Islam is the only religion that activity calls upon it's followers to wage war on the non believers (Kafir)
These were the final words of Mohammad.
And since this religion has no evolved through time....It is still an issue, unlike Christianity.
"You're not talking homegrown Muslims though. You're talking about third-world Muslims who are suddenly trying to fit in with a first world."
Right! Because the home grown ones are uneducated about the true origins of their religion.
They were born in to peace so they are generally good people.
So once again, you are agreeing with my original statement that:
It's all about the infrastructure behind it.
Are you ready to admit I changed your mind? share
There was never really any dispute on that in the first place.
My post was about Islam as a religion, not the causes behind terrorism, of which there are many (religion incluced)
"Only in places where education barely exists. In Europe, it is growing, but it has not reached Christianity, and Christianity is dying in Europe. "
Logic should follow then, that eventually as Christianity wanes, and Islam grows, that perhaps it is not dying?
"Right. Nor were Christianity or Judaism. The three Abrahamic religions are nearly identical and equally violent. However, they are malleable. And because of it, it makes sense to criticize what they are rather than what they were."
Uh no. They are not nearly identical by any stretch of the imagination. What an absurd thing to say. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. They also believe that the son, the father, and the holy spirit are the same person. Islam teaches the opposite, that not only is Jesus Christ not three separate beings, but also that he is NOT the son of God, but rather, a simple prophet. The bible mentions nothing about Mohammed, meanwhile Mohammed is the focal point of the Koran. How in the living hell did you get that the Christianity and the bible are nearly identical? They literally profess contradictory canons. Muslims follow in the steps of Mohammed, whereas Christians follow in the steps of Christianity. Pray tell how Jesus was similar to Mohammed. I'd love to hear this.
"Bullshit. We label Islam negatively because of 911, which not only came from the Middle East, but came from our greatest ally in the Middle East... Saudi Arabia."
Oh really? So it has nothing to do with all of the terror attacks in Paris? Manchester? London? Nice? Barcelona? Toronto? Orlando? Nothing to do with the mass rape/sexual assault of German women in Cologne on New Years Eve? Nothing to do with all the child rape gangs in the UK, Sweden, Germany? London is the acid attack capital of the west. Malmo is the rape capital of the west. And none of this has anything to do with Islam? Did the early Muslim conquests circa 700 AD have anything to do with Islam either then?
"Oh really? So it has nothing to do with all of the terror attacks in Paris? Manchester? London? Nice? Barcelona? Toronto? Orlando? Nothing to do with the mass rape/sexual assault of German women in Cologne on New Years Eve? Nothing to do with all the child rape gangs in the UK, Sweden, Germany? London is the acid attack capital of the west. Malmo is the rape capital of the west. And none of this has anything to do with Islam? Did the early Muslim conquests circa 700 AD have anything to do with Islam either then?"
Thank you!
If you are also an American then you get double points for that one lol.
It seems a lot of Americans think 9/11 was the only significant act of terrorism done by Muslims.
It is crazy ignorant!
Also keep in mind that Muslims were barely on Christians' radar until halfway through the 20th century when US and England's government made the boneheaded mistake of ousting the democratic Prime Minister in Iran in favor of the religious Shah. That's when the shit hit the proverbial fan. Iranian women were driving cars and wearing western clothing, then we went and messed it all up.
For century after century, Christians had one enemy, the Jews. This is where Nazi Germany and the KKK's disdain for Jews came from... not from Jews themselves. But I agree for the most part. There was an underlying hatred in Nazis and KKK members, and Jews (and blacks) were merely a target for their hateful aggression. So to blame it all on religion is to look away from the real problem. I just wish more people would understand that it's the same deal with Islam.
Also look at Saudi Arabia in the 1920s. Fuckin secular! How the hell did that happen? Because they were free to educate themselves. Then the oil under their feet became instant wealth, and the religious outsiders like Bin Laden and the Mujahideen were the ones willing to die to maintain control of it. Russia found that out the hard way when Reagan paid billions to Bin Laden and the Mujahideen to shoot down Russian helicopters. All that money going to religious fundamentalists... but but but... it's the religion!!!! Bleah
"I just wish more people would understand that it's the same deal with Islam. "
It isn't lol. As Islam is an entirely different religion, not comparable with Christianity at all.
How much of the Quran have you read? Or how about the Hadiths or the Sira?
Is it not logical that if you want to understand a religion, the best way to do so would be to look at the origins and the words/actions of the man who created it?
And you are trying to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion, right?
Okay so, whenever you are ready...
"And you are trying to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion, right?"
No. I'm trying to prove that a religion's violence or peace is based on the infrastructure of the territory it comes from.
To an extent yes, but like I said not all religions are the same.
Either way Islam as an ideology is a threat to western civilization.
"Religion in general comes from a lack of education."
This is what gender non-conformists say about gender. We only believe in masculinity and femininity because we are uneducated and in the future everyone will be androgynous.
That's what happens when education increases and religion declines. Education is not intelligence and religion does not go away. Faith based impulses just move somewhere else like science or environmentalism and you get weird moral ideas like it is wrong to eat meat. You still have the same hippy dippy Spaceship Earth idea as the communists about "blank slate" where we can re-educate and remake humanity into something it is not. Prepare to be disappointed no matter how much money corporations poor into stamping out diversity.
Rossane didn't know she was racist for her comment about Planet of the apes. You don't know you're racist for saying that black women like Church because they are uneducated. If you are a baby boomer it would explain why you thought you could virtue signal about atheism without undermining the rest of the left's hierarchy.
i agree
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