MovieChat Forums > J.K. Rowling Discussion > She is wrong about transgenderism

She is wrong about transgenderism


Science has proven that gender dysphoria is real and that the best option for people affected by it is to change their gender via surgery. Rowling is causing harm to a marginalized group with her opinions specially due to how large her platform is.

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I don't believe science has proved that. Science had homosexuality listed as one of the psychological illnesses 50 years ago. Due to gay community pressure the psychologists changed the books. Transgenderism is a mental disorder.

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Science adapts as new and better info comes out. Transgenderism is no longer listed as a mental disorder.

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It is not important if it is listed or not by incompetent boot lickers who adjust their findings to whatever political climate is and who gives them funding. If I told you I feel I am really a dragon would you send me to get psychiatric help or fund me a surgery to get scales so I can physically deform my body to look like a dragon. If you know the answer to this question then you know the answer to trans gender issue as well.

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Where is your evidence that no longer listing transgenderism as a mental disorder was done for purely political reasons and not scientific research?

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I can contend that gender dysphoria is a real mental illness, as is homosexuality, but both are actually very rare, and trying to get the entire population in on it is not okay, nor is forcing everyone to agree to it on pain of getting canceled.

The truth is their kryptonite, and the only reason they ever got the power to frighten their critics is because they managed to get someone stupid and powerful enough to back them up, as well as taking advantage of communication on the internet. It's just one of many reasons I don't use social media; it's evil and a haven for nutty fringe groups like the ones above.

Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina; get over yourselves and live with it.

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Guess you've never heard of being intersexed or people with XXY chromosomes? Just because you wish reality to be solely black and white or exclusively binary doesn't make it so.

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"Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina; get over yourselves and live with it."

Some are actually born without them just like some are born intersex. Transgenderism is real and proven by science.

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Rare genetic mutations is not an excuse to dictate how people think or speak to each other. It's not an excuse to shut people down, make them lose their jobs and their livelihoods just because your poor wittle feewings were hurt. 99.9% of the world does not have Gender Dysphoria; get used to it.

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[deleted]

You contend wrong, as usual. Just a flailing spout of deranged opinions with zero basis.

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I have the scientific evidence to back it up. All you have is a childish, 5-year-old strawman argument that nobody's gonna listen to.

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Interesting - I haven't yet put forward an argument for you to categorise.

Please, share your scientific evidence, oh wizened one.

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She’s really not that old. Or do you not know what “wizened” really means?

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She certainly has the opinions of someone that out of touch.

She's not bothered to respond because like all people who make these claims she's got nothing to back it up with.

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“ I can contend that gender dysphoria is a real mental illness, as is homosexuality, but both are actually very rare, and trying to get the entire population in on it is not okay, nor is forcing everyone to agree to it on pain of getting canceled.“

You think homosexuality is a mental illness Amerigirl?

I’ve never thought of it like that. I’ve grown up with and lived my life around so many gay people that I take it for granted that it’s just how some people are born.

It doesn’t seem like mental illness to me, but I’m curious to hear you elaborate if you care to.

Transgenderism on the other hand seems very far fetched. A person can live their life in drag, and/or get surgeries to simulate the opposite sex, but they’ll never, ever be that opposite sex no matter what they do, bar dying and getting reborn as the opposite sex.

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She won't reply - at least not with anything more than a rant - these people who have 'unrefutable scientific evidence' always seem to suddenly go quiet when you ask them to provide it.

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[deleted]

Science isn't static, the models change as we gain more knowledge and understanding. Science has been able to show a correlation between the brain scans of transgendered people and cisgendered people that correspond. Meaning a trans man's(genetically female) will have a brain scan similar to a cisgendered genetic male.

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I am a scientist, you would be surprised how much politics there is in science and how difficult it is to bring out the truth if it is unpopular. Newton discovered gravity 500 years ago, current scientists debating if gender identity is real or not are not worthy of licking dirt off his shoes.

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Believe me I know. I have a Geo Sciences degree and I went to Princeton. You'll find politics in every aspect of life but that doesn't mean the current view of gender identity is product of this.

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Current view of gender identity is 100 percent influenced by modern social justice politics and mass hysteria. If you get censored for stating a scientific fact that there are two biological genders and that so called trans gender men are still biological men then there is something wrong here in the way we are thinking. Telling trans men they are women is not working with science it is directly telling a lie so a small group of people can feel good about themselves. I am no expert but logic tells me if a biological woman or a man think they are of opposite sex then that problem is not biological, it is mental. Same as if I am thinking I am something I am not I would need to have a talk with a professional.

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-looks at your other recent posts-

LOL sure you are, friend. Sure you are.

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I don't want to hurt your feelings but there are two genders in nature. I will admit there is homosexuality in nature too so it may not be a mental disorder but more natural as part of sexuality spectrum. However someone actually believing they are something they are not is always a mental disorder that needs treatment.

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Why would my feelings be hurt by your take? I don't care one way or another, but this whole declarative "I know 'coz I'm a science person" narrative is bullshit.

Notice how AmeriGirl had "scientific evidence" that she's suddenly gone quiet about.

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Are you talking about my narrative or the opening narrative of this thread? I am actually a scientist but I actually work on things that matter like curing covid with estrogen, ironically the same stuff trans gender men take to grow tits.

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Yeah, sorry, don't buy it.

I'm not a scientist but I work *with* them and their most obvious shared facet is they're never black and white about anything, because their passion for discovery means they've come to a place where they're always open to further discoveries, never discounting an explanation until it's been fully explored, never shutting the book, so saying "A+B=C and I won't hear any more about it!" doesn't ring true.

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Lol a lot of scientists are actually closed minded. That is why discoveries take so long to prove and you need to fight a horde of traditional thinkers before finally getting some recognition. But in this case saying there are two genders is an absolute biological fact so I have nothing to discuss or ponder. There are other theories that hold more merit for me to think about that most scientists are too closed minded to consider.

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Uh-huh.

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People like J. K. will ignore science when it doesn't confirm their biases.

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Exactly. But then again a lot of people do on both sides of the isle.

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I think it's a state of mind, and apparently a lot of wealthy elites have kids who exhibit it, thus it has become a cause celeb for them and it has been elevated as a National Issue.

On a related note, I find it strange that REAL transgender people such as Hermaphrodites, are shunned or ignored entirely. Same goes for violent schizophrenia sufferers who end up in the streets.

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The best option for people with gender dysphoria is to do whatever they can to alleviate it, but surgery isn't always the answer.

That aside... While I do agree a person with a large platform has a certain degree of responsibility, she is still allowed to voice her opinions. People need to know better than to blindly trust a famous person.
Kinda like when they endorse political candidates. I mean, who even are they that we should care about what they have to say, lol?

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I applaud her for standing up to the bullies.

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The OP's entire statement is nonsense. Rowling is right. Most of the "marginalized group" she has upset consists of a lot of brainless high school girls who have fallen into a mass hysteria fad that has nothing to do with their actual gender or sexuality. They need to slapped out of their silly nonsense.

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How is it nonsense when it is perfectly backed up by science?

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Hi,
Could you please get your story straight?
Either science is fact-based and able to back-up or debunk claims about the nature of the world, or science has become "politicized and corrupt" and "we can't trust it anymore" (your words: link to your post and copy of its contents below). Which is it? Many thanks.

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/5f24125d52aa7a0de38a4082/We-cant-even-trust-science-anymore
"We used to think of science as this reliable and object means of gaining knowledge but like very much everything it too has become politicized and "corrupted" by the identity politic crowd. Now science has to conform to their ideology or else research won't get funded and/or attacked as not being diverse, inclusive or something similar.
It is like there is no truth to be found anywhere, not in the media, not in science, not in politics. Quite sad."

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"We used to think of science as this reliable and object means of gaining knowledge but like very much everything it too has become politicized and "corrupted" by the identity politic crowd. Now science has to conform to their ideology or else research won't get funded and/or attacked as not being diverse, inclusive or something similar.
It is like there is no truth to be found anywhere, not in the media, not in science, not in politics. Quite sad."

Guessing you never heard back from them on this.

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No, she's spot on. Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness. It's even defined as a FEELING. It's in their head. They aren't hermaphrodites. That's concrete and tangible. It's a physical issue. Gender dysphoria is in their head.

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There are objective scientific tests done to people suffering gender dysphoria that shows that their brain correspond to the opposite sex. It is not a mere feeling.

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Can you provide any proof of this statement? Is there any real data to support it?

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Sure: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

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So it is in there head then as proven by your link.

The issue is that there should be many forms of treatment or what ever you wanna call it before surgery is even considered.

Surgery now is basically being put as the first port of call and if you say otherwise as shown on twitter or even this thread you are called a transphobe. Which is a wrong discription, Phobe means an irrational fear, no one has an irrational fear over a trans person, they just hold different opinions but of course in 2020 that is not allowed, you either follow the current narrative or agenda or you get cancelled and have your life ruined even in some cases without any shred of proof.

You can change your outwardly appearance as much as you want but you cannot change your biology. A man can take as many hormones and estrogen and have there penis cut off but that will never change there larger skeletal structure, larger heart, increased lung capacity, wider stride, more fast twitch muscles, larger body mass (due to enlarged skeleton), greater agrression. Will not suddenly grow overies, a uterus, milk ducts and so on.

I stand by the phrase "You do you and let me do me". Basically do whatever makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else but if Transwoman are woman then why use the term "Trans".

JK Rowling stating her opinion based on 50000 years of human evoloution does not make her a transphobe.

Final point. If gender and sex are social constructs as we keep geting told and that there is no biological difference between men and woman then when did society create these constructs? Don't think caveman where bothered about gender, there were men and woman to do basically 1 job which was to procreate, that is it. Yes over time intersex and other random mutations have happened but that is not the norm, they are the exceptions to the rule. As said over and over and over and will continue to be said. 99.99999999999% of human existance throughout all time were men and woman, male and female, that unfortunately is the called hard truth.

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"You can change your outwardly appearance as much as you want but you cannot change your biology."

But their biology is so that they have a brain of the opposite sex. By having surgery they are simply further conforming their body with the sex their brain is wired into.

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There is no such thing as male and female brains.

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Science disagrees.

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No it doesn’t.

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Fact: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

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Regarding your Science Daily article on Bakker’s study:

“Genetics and hormones contribute to sex differences in brain development and function that lead to more male- or female-typical characteristics; however, these processes are not well established.”
IOW: not proven.

“Furthermore, little is known on how early in life, or to what extent, the gender-typical characteristics of transgender people become established.”

Gender typical characteristics- that would be the personality, no? But you agreed that trans men have male personalities. If their “female brains“ don’t give them female bodies or female personalities, then what exactly do they have that makes them female?

“The study included both adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria and used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans to assess brain activation patterns in response to a pheromone known to produce gender-specific activity. The pattern of brain activation in both transgender adolescent boys and girls more closely resembled that of non-transgender boys and girls of their desired gender. In addition, GD adolescent girls showed a male-typical brain activation pattern during a visual/spatial memory exercise. Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls.
Dr Bakker says, "Although more research is needed, cherry picking we now have evidence that sexual differentiation of the brain differs in young people with GD, as they show functional brain characteristics that are typical of their desired gender."

These tests are being done on adolescents with life experience and almost fully formed personalities. There’s no indication of what sorts of activities or life experiences have influenced their attention spans or aptitudes.

One doesn’t need a science background to see how flimsy these results are. But they’ll get a standing O for it for their “bravery” in representing the trans community when it’s really the people who stand up to the current wave of bashing down anyone who questions their ideology who are the brave ones risking their careers and reputations by being attacked as bigots when all they’re doing is stating the obvious.

I have a much more in depth article for you that is a far more conclusive study. I’ll make another post ASAP.

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“According to new research... the findings suggest

Dr. Bakker doesn’t even identify who her research colleagues are and the article doesn’t even state how many subjects were involved in the study. Flimsy.

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"Science disagrees."
***
Again: get your story straight.
Is science to be trusted? Or not? Or only when you decide it should be? Which is it?
You posted the following 2 days ago:

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/5f24125d52aa7a0de38a4082/We-cant-even-trust-science-anymore
"We used to think of science as this reliable and object means of gaining knowledge but like very much everything it too has become politicized and "corrupted" by the identity politic crowd. Now science has to conform to their ideology or else research won't get funded and/or attacked as not being diverse, inclusive or something similar.
It is like there is no truth to be found anywhere, not in the media, not in science, not in politics. Quite sad."

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I don’t “feel” like a woman. I know that I am one by my body.

The only reason I behave in “feminine” ways is because my society punishes me if I don’t and rewards me if I do. So I learned to adapt.

The only thing that defines gender is biology and that’s just science.

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“ But their biology is so that they have a brain of the opposite sex.“

So if trans men have this supposed feminine brain, then why are their personalities so masculine? I.E.: aggressive and entitled, controlling and authoritarian...

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That is besides the point and you are imposing societal norms upon biology.

Fact: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

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I’ll read this later, thank you! :)

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“That is besides the point and you are imposing societal norms upon biology.”

Ok, so their personalities are beside the point.. is that what you’re saying? If their “female brains” make them female but it doesn’t reflect in their behavior then how exactly does it make them female?

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And in this Science Daily article they claim that the opposite sex brains these adolescents have leads to characteristics of their desired to be sex. That’s the exact opposite of what you said; that society gave them their characteristics.

So when trans men behave like stereotypical men it’s because of society, but when they proclaim they are women it’s because they have female brains?

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Man to woman can have breast implants, adams apple removed, take all the estrogen they want but it will not give you a Uterus, Ovaries, a working Vagina, working milk ducts. It won't remove you larger skeletal frame, larger heart, larger lungs. Will still have to eventually get a prostate exam, may still get prostate cancer.

So yes i repeat, "You can change your outwardly appearance as much as you want but you cannot change your biology."

I can dress as a bird. Have my hands altered to look like talons, where feathers but i will never fly or lay eggs.

You cannot keep moving the goalposts to fit your argument. You have stated that it is there brians that are different (Mental Dsorder) and that is societal norms. So which is it.

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You cannot keep moving the goalposts to fit your argument. You have stated that it is there brians that are different (Mental Dsorder) and that is societal norms. So which is it.


This is brilliant! They keep moving the goalpost.

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“By having surgery they are simply further conforming their body with the sex their brain is wired into.“

So... um.. brains are wired into something or other?

What is the something and what is the other o bot friend o mine???

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This Dr. Bakker and her unidentified team from the Science Daily article should do a new study with the blind of not knowing which MRI’s came from males or females and then be tasked with figuring out which are “male brains” and which are “female brains” and out of those, which “female brains” are in male bodies, which “male brains” are in female bodies, which “female brains” are in female bodies and which “male brains” are in male bodies.

Or even just having them identify which are “male brains” and which are “female brains” would suffice because it would show which sex brains the trans kids have, and if they can actually determine someone’s gender from a brain scan.

THAT I would LOVE to see.

Fat chance...

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"There are objective scientific tests done to people suffering gender dysphoria that shows that their brain correspond to the opposite sex. It is not a mere feeling."
***

Same as before. Please get your story straight: either science is capable of objective testing in order to back-up or debunk claims about the nature of the world, or science has become "politicized and corrupt" and "we can't trust it anymore" (your words: link to your post and copy of its contents below).

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/5f24125d52aa7a0de38a4082/We-cant-even-trust-science-anymore
"We used to think of science as this reliable and object means of gaining knowledge but like very much everything it too has become politicized and "corrupted" by the identity politic crowd. Now science has to conform to their ideology or else research won't get funded and/or attacked as not being diverse, inclusive or something similar.
It is like there is no truth to be found anywhere, not in the media, not in science, not in politics. Quite sad."

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