MovieChat Forums > Elliot Page Discussion > Gender and Biological Sex

Gender and Biological Sex

posted 3 years ago by dlancer (2036)
43 replies | jump to latest

Science cannot say gender and sex mean the same thing. Science can determine what biological sex is. It's up to society to determine if gender is the same as biological sex or if it covers things biological sex does not.

Now if society tries to say biological sex of XY chromosomes can be male or female, which many wokers make the mistake of doing, it fails the scientific method. In turn, the anti-wokers jump on that mistake, trying to correct them that biological sex cannot be male or female, but because of their bias, they make a similar mistake by saying it applies to gender too. Science never said that. Science can't say that about gender. Science can only say it about biological sex. It's up to society to determine what gender is.

The anti-wokers need to get over the fact that gender is a social construct which involves terms such as boy, girl, man, woman, he, she, etc, and is malleable depending on what the majority opinion is.

The wokers need to get over the fact that a male cannot be female and a female cannot be a male (well until science can alter chromosomes which will happen some day) because those are hard-line biological sexes backed up by scientific method.

[–] samoanjoes (50962) 3 years ago

If this is the case, no can can be offended that I call Ellen Page a "she" because I'm referring to her sex and not gender. Therefore, I am right for calling her that, and can not be considered transphobic because I am stating fact.

[–] Zinger (2164) 3 years ago

Nicely done.

[–] dlancer (2036) 3 years ago

You are confusing personal offense with legality. You cannot be arrested for calling Elliot Page a "she" any more than I can be arrested for calling Ben Shapiro the same thing.

You and I will always have the right to be offended by something.

[–] samoanjoes (50962) 3 years ago

I'm just talking about being called a transphobe, not whether or not it's legal.

[–] dlancer (2036) 3 years ago

Anybody can call you a transphobe for any reason. It is their right, just as it is your right to call Elliot Page a "she." None of us have the right to avoid being offended, because we all have the right to offend others.

[–] ducksoup (3933) 3 years ago

Intersex is a scientific category.

[–] Satan2016 (23351) 3 years ago

No it's not. It's a number of unrelated conditions. Wikipedia.
Ambiguous genitals is very rare. People never think of women with body hair.

[–] ducksoup (3933) 3 years ago

Either you didn't read your own source or you do not understand the concept of a category.

From Wikipedia, Intersex, second para:

Intersex people were previously referred to as hermaphrodites or "congenital eunuchs".[4][5] In the 19th and 20th centuries, some medical experts devised new nomenclature in an attempt to classify the characteristics that they had observed. It was the first attempt at creating a taxonomic classification system of intersex conditions. Intersex people were categorized as either having true hermaphroditism, female pseudohermaphroditism, or male pseudohermaphroditism.[6] These terms are no longer used: terms including the word "hermaphrodite" are considered to be misleading, stigmatizing, and scientifically specious in reference to humans.[7] A hermaphrodite is now defined as "an animal or plant having both male and female reproductive organs".[6] In 1917, Richard Goldschmidt created the term intersexuality to refer to a variety of physical sex ambiguities.[6]

[–] Satan2016 (23351) 3 years ago

You don't know how to read.

[–] ducksoup (3933) 3 years ago

That's no excuse for your behavior. I really don't see how whether I can read or not is relevant.

[–] OratiaGlake (1234) 3 years ago

‘People never think of women with body hair.’

What’s that got to do with anything?!

[–] dlancer (2036) 3 years ago

That is because of a lack of labels to describe genitalia. We label them as sex organs even if the chromosomes do not match.

[–] kukuxu (5409) 3 years ago

Yes and no.

Gender/sex is not just a label. It carries a certain amount of privileges. The system uses to be more protective and lenient with females, for example, which is not going to change because protecting females is something deeply ingrained in human nature. Sports have often male and female categories, and so.

The problem is not the label. It's the consequences of that label. You can label yourself as a lottery winner, if that makes you happy. The problem appears when you claim that since you identify yourself as a lottery winner, you have the right to get the money.

"Gender" is that it's not an empty label. It has consequences. You're a second rate male athlete, you label yourself a woman and bingo... you have acquired the right to participate in female competitions.

"Civil Engineer" is a social construct too. So fuck studying. You identify yourself as a Civil Engineer and suddenly you have to right to endorse a project. Disagreeing with it will be considered hate speech... what could go wrong?.

[–] triplea (3577) 3 years ago

Only the downfall of a civilisation I suppose.

[–] Iffy762 (1331) 3 years ago

Yup. Gender is semantics. Sex is biology. The consequence is the mediator.

[–] dlancer (2036) 3 years ago

"Gender" is that it's not an empty label. It has consequences. You're a second rate male athlete, you label yourself a woman and bingo... you have acquired the right to participate in female competitions.

"Gender" is just a label we attribute to sex depending on our own beliefs. "Sex" is a label obtained from biological science. "Gender" changes as society changes. "Sex" does not.

"Gender" is that it's not an empty label. It has consequences. You're a second rate male athlete, you label yourself a woman and bingo... you have acquired the right to participate in female competitions.

Actually, the label of "female" would bar anyone with a Y chromosome from participating in that sport. Female is a biological sex that only contains X's.

The problem of men changing their gender to enter women's sports is easily fixed by women's sports changing their rules to be female only.

[–] kuatorises (7467) 3 years ago

It can't? Because I've filled out many a job applications, doctors office forms, and other documents that say

Gender (check one)
Male
Female

[–] Satan2016 (23351) 3 years ago

That's incorrect usage of "gender" invented in the US. It European it's linguistic (ships are female, ...)

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Yeah, but where US goes Europe and the world follows.

I’m from Europe. For example in my language there used to always be sex as biological distinction between male and female.

Gender was mostly used in linguistic form as we have words (nouns) that are in male, female and middle gender. Also we have gender distinctions in verbs which doesn’t exist in English. For example in English if you say: “I was driving to work.” You can’t really know who is saying it out of context, but in my language for the same sentence you would immediately know that it is male or female doing the driving.

But nowadays in my county we get to hear more and more about gender. We have a new translation to fit the word transgender and there’s more and more talk about gender rights, which I think used to be women’s rights (not really sure on that one, if one negates the other but I keep hearing about one more than the other in recent times).

[–] kukuxu (5409) 3 years ago

where US goes Europe and the world follows

Times are changing. Asia is becoming more and more hostile to western values. And the western influence in Muslim countries has almost completely vanished.

US and Europe are quickly declining. The local population are becoming second class citizens in their own countries and are being replaced by foreign ethnic groups. The world is looking at western countries with a sense of fear... not afraid of us, but afraid of becoming like us.

The consequence is non-western countries rejecting western values more and more. And I don't mean they're rejecting woke western values. I mean they're rejecting all of them.

[–] asom (6509) 3 years ago

I doubt that in your language I is gendered.

I come from a "latin" country and our grammar is gendered but we don't have that for I.

I'm quite curious: what language is that and what are the 2 different forms?

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

You are right - word “I” is not gendered, but the verb of doing something (in this example driving) has a suffix on the basis of which we know the gender. This is my layman explanation as I was never really good with grammar rules so I don’t know the exact definition.

The language is Croatian. Serbian and Slovenian are the same. I don’t know if it is southern Slavic thing or Slavic in general. Maybe there are other languages that have it the same way.

So, the example was:
“I was driving to work.”

We would say:
“Ja sam vozio na posao” - male
“Ja sam vozila na posao” - female

It depends on the context but usually we remove the word “I” (Ja) altogether and just say “Vozio/la sam na posao”.

Voziti - means to drive
Vozio/la - past tense of driving

But if it was in present tense then you would not know the gender.

Then it would be:
“(Ja) Vozim na posao.”
“I’m driving to work.”

Then it is genderless and all genders say it the same.

I hope this explanation helps.

And what is your native language if you don’t mind me asking?

[–] asom (6509) 3 years ago

romanian.

hmm, it's quite weird that your grammar have only some tenses that are gendered ...

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Yeah I guess. 😂 Never really thought about it before.

I think it’s not that much about tenses alone, but also about different pronouns in combination with tenses and depending on the context. I think, 🤔 it gets confusing even to me now when I try to explain it without the knowledge of grammar definitions and rules.

Probably there is more to it than I can think of and that I can explain, as I am really bad with grammar both in English and in my own language.

Can you give me examples how would you say it in Romanian, and does it reveal the gender of the person speaking when speaking in the first pronoun?

P.S. I would like to visit Romania some day, never been.

[–] asom (6509) 3 years ago

Iirc in Romanian the first person is not gendered, in any situation. And iirc there is no difference in conjugating the verb in the third person either.

In your example:
"I go to work" is the same for both genders: "Eu merg la munca".
Third person:
"He/She goes to work": "El/Ea merge la munca"

But my grammar classes are old and I don't remember everything :D

I plan to visit Croatia soon, after this shit is over. So maybe the summer of 2022 ...
Romania is ok to visit for few days. But wouldn't be on high on my list :D

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Thanks for the little insight into Romanian. :) I find languages fascinating (except grammar rules obviously 🙄). Would love to speak some other foreign language apart from English. I did start a couple of them on Duolingo, I just lack consistency. :(

I hope you will enjoy your stay in Croatia when you finally go. If you’ll need some recommendations feel free to DM me. :)

[–] Alex (1478) 3 years ago

In Russian language both Gender and Sex are under the same word "POL" and it encompasses every meaning of the word from biological to psychological.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

That’s interesting to know. Thanks for your input! :)

Actually now when I think about it; we say in Croatian spol for sex, rod for gender.

Spol and pol are really similar words. In Serbia they also say pol I just remembered.

[–] asom (6509) 3 years ago

actually it was invented in europe as a synonym for sex to be used in grammar.

[–] Iffy762 (1331) 3 years ago

Exactly. A correct form would have been:

Gender (check one):
Man
Woman

OR

Sex (check one):
Male
Female.

Now, who knows.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Didn’t forms used to say - sex (check one)
Male or Female?

I might be wrong, but I think it used to be about sex not gender.

And remember, it used to be called “Battle of the Sexes” - in general when talking about differences and also that was called that tennis match between a man and a woman.

So, when did gender replaced sex?

These days it seems it’s all about the gender and sex is becoming obsolete.

[–] asom (6509) 3 years ago

they are interchangeable. at least at origin. of course woke culture loves to redefine terms and concepts.

[–] legnadibrom (5711) 3 years ago

i never check either (one)

[–] asom (6509) 3 years ago

the confusion is due to the fact that gender has been used as a replacement to "gender roles".

"i don't fit/agree with the roles assigned to male so i'm not male". which is stupid. you can be a male without ascribing to male roles.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Agreed.

[–] bobbynynex (1505) 3 years ago

shut the fuck up

[–] Kowalski (58146) 3 years ago

SECONDED.

[–] Satan2016 (23351) 3 years ago

Stay stupid then!

[–] liscarkat (16530) 3 years ago

All that convoluted crap is just a lot of jerking off to support whichever ideology the jerkor favors. Page has XX chromosomes and a vag. She is a woman, no matter how many times she closes her eyes and clicks her heels and wishes otherwise.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

^^^ This

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

we are the most time wasting generation the Earth has ever known. bothering to waste time even CONTEMPLATING any of this. it's all totally moot.

Can't believe we all don't have better things to do in our lives.

there's male and female, they fuck, they make kids, end of story. everything else, EVERYTHING ELSE... is life time waste.

[–] dlancer (2036) 3 years ago

And yet... here you are.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

stupid people make good comedic entertainment for us :D