Press Release for Episode 12.21 - There's Something About Mary - Spoilers - Supernatural (2005) Discussion

[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Dean and Sam are just figuring out that hunters are being killed off

Which means 2 more episodes of them being in the dark + I'm guessing throughout most of 21, they won't know the BMoL are behind it (after the BMoL presumably got the names from Dean and Sam through that bug that was obviously never found) until towards the end when they are attacked in the bunker.

ETA: We can quote now too!

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Does anyone else feel that the hunters that will be killed off will be Sam and Dean's hunting contacts and the men of letters find out about them through bugging Sam and Dean?

If so is next year going to be the brothers running from pissed off US hunters who think the brothers either betrayed them to the men of letters or at least facilitated the men of letters. Not to mention the monsters, who were previously peaceful, going ape at hunters, because they were hunted down and their families were killed by the men of letters.

Not to mention still dealing with the men of letters as if they have a big school and essentially run the rest of the world of monster hunting so just killing Ketch and telling them to piss off isn't exactly a recipe to make them go away.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Does anyone else feel that the hunters that will be killed off will be Sam and Dean's hunting contacts and the men of letters find out about them through bugging Sam and Dean?

I do. Storytelling-wise, the bug is only there for one of two reasons. 1) For Dean and Sam to find it and let them know what the BMoL are doing. 2) For the bug to actually do what it's supposed to do and let the BMoL pick up information they want to know about the Winchesters, like their contacts, which they've been trying to get all season.

Since hunters dying all over the country is what presumably puts the Winchesters onto what the BMoL are doing, it has to be the second reason. It's yet another way to make Dean and Sam look bad this season.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Yeah but you know I think the whole men of letters storyline makes Sam and Dean looks bad and you know I feel the only way to salvage it is for things to push back against all that work with the men of letters, which unfortunately mean the brothers.

However if the idea is confirmed that they don't notice a bug that is the comparative size of the Hindenburg strapped to the underside of a table until their friends are dying when added to not securing that door when told the men of letters can swan in and out when they want makes the brothers look like morons.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Yeah but you know I think the whole men of letters storyline makes Sam and Dean looks bad[/quote]

Ha! I do!

[quote]However if the idea is confirmed that they don't notice a bug that is the comparative size of the Hindenburg strapped to the underside of a table until their friends are dying when added to not securing that door when told the men of letters can swan in and out when they want makes the brothers look like morons.

It is a monstrous bug. At this point all I can do is bury my face in my hands and shake my head, thinking "Season 12 is so bad."

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Oh good god it is isn't it! I thought the Levi season was bad but this one - did the brothers check their brains at the door???

It is a monstrous bug.

It's huge!!! But at least we now know that table is definitely not flat pack furniture. If it was that bug would cause it to collapse!

And I can get the quote thing to work!

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Not to mention still dealing with the men of letters as if they have a big school and essentially run the rest of the world of monster hunting so just killing Ketch and telling them to piss off isn't exactly a recipe to make them go away.

Logically, I could see the BMoL going on into season 13. I don't think there's anywhere near enough time to tie it all up in the 5 episodes we have left. Plus, as you said, there are presumably a whole host of BMoL that could be dispatched to the US after the ones we know are dead or gone. I don't see Toni dying, so what are they going to do with her?

Actually, this Toni vs. Mary thing . . . are we supposed to be drawing parallels between them, because they're both doing these things for their children, or what? Also, is there supposed to be some kind of a parallel with Mary and Kelly? Is Kelly supposed to be like Mary before she died and Toni is who she is now?

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Logically I agree there is no way to tie the men of letters storyline in a satisfactory way in five episodes.

It would be trite and actually insulting to every non American fan if the idea is they kill Ketch and this group with all its resources then bow down to saviour Americans who are going to show them the 'right' way to do things. (yes I am bitter in so so many ways hehe) Plus I can't see Sam taking over Kendrick's school and Dean working in the school garage.

So as much as I want the men of letters gone it needs to be done in a way that makes sense and god damn it I want answers to why the hell Delphine waited for that sub instead of going North to the UK or South to Spain during WW2.

As for Mary v Toni. I can see them as mirrors in lots of ways - each putting job before their kids even if they say their kids are the most important things in their lives. And even more so if they make it that Toni was told to have a kid with Ketch and I say that for the following reasons.

1) The MoL seem to like legacy families
2) They have a school where they indoctrinate kids so they need a supply of ones they deem as hopeful
3) They like keeping Ketch happy
4) They refer to hunters including Ketch as dogs and people breed dogs

Now part of me wants to be wrong but it would set up an interesting mirror to Mary as she was made to love John because the angels needed her and John to 'breed'. You can't tell me that isn't also getting to Mary if Dean told her that tidbit.

But it would also set up an interesting parallel with Kelly to.

-Toni having a kid because she was told with a guy that creeps her out.
-Mary having kids with a guy she didn't know she was made to love. Even though she does love him and John wasn't involved in making that decision either.
-Kelly having a kid with a guy she loved but wasn't who she thought he was when she slept with him.

All three would have had kids that they do want but all could be argued to be having or had them through dubious consent and each kind of allying themselves with people who they deem will do best by their kids, though sympathy wise I'd only give Kelly mine.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

All three would have had kids that they do want but all could be argued to be having or had them through dubious consent and each kind of allying themselves with people who they deem will do best by their kids, though sympathy wise I'd only give Kelly mine.

Consent is such an issue on this show for women and men.

With the Kelly and Mary comparisons, I'm wondering if there isn't something there, like in the years after The Song Remains the Same, Mary found out what Azazel's plans were. Maybe she only found out after she was carrying Sam, and she had him anyway, the way Kelly is having Lucifer's kid? I'm just not sure why she didn't do anything about Azazel after she had Sam if that's the case, because she had 6 months after he was born to figure something out. She didn't have the Colt, but she knew what devil's traps were. She knew how to use salt and holy water. She could've taken off with Sam, so the rest of her family wasn't involved, and then kept Azazel away using what she knew until Sam's 6 month birthday was over. Even if she'd still been killed for breaking her deal, at least she would have tried to do something . . . unless breaking her deal would've made John go back to being dead in which case she chose John over Sam, but then why go into the room, recognize Azazel, and seem somewhat surprised that he was there?

That's the thing that I keep coming back to over and over again. She knew Azazel when she saw him, but it didn't seem like she was expecting him. She also thought Ramiel was Azazel this season, so they're keeping her recognizing Azazel consistent even though she didn't remember meeting Dean and then Dean and Sam in the past. Waiting to delve into any of this until episode 22 (which is when I'm guessing it will happen), just doesn't make any sense to me.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

I think it would be interesting if they did go and have the discussion with Mary about why she didn't do anything to stop Azazel not on what she could have done as you are right she had options but not simply from the hunting stand point but purely from an emotional one.

If they have at some point with Dean going at her (which he has every right to do) she turns round and tells them she and John weren't given a choice about having the brothers. It would be an interesting discussion to have and it would be a major issue for the brothers to work through.

Because you are right consent is a huge problem on this show. Mary was made to love someone for the purposes of having kids. She says she loves them but she keeps them at arms length and works with people who have hurt them, used them as muscle.

There must be some part of her, if she knows about the angels making her love John, resents her sons even if she doesn't want to. It would be at least a way for the show to give us they get there is major psychological issues to having consent taken away from you which they have never truly discussed before outside Dean and Sam feeling uncomfortable in the presence of Alistair and Lucifer.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

When they included the scene with Lady T's son I doubt they planned anything for future episodes. It was thrown in to juxtapose her being a caring mother with her being a cold torturer. I don't think these writers plan more than two episodes ahead. They definitely don't have an outline for the whole season - they've admitted this.

Mary (and her son Sam) both don't bother warding where they live. Why Super Duper Hunter Mary didn't even make an effort to ward her home and protect her children needs some explanation at least. However, I'm not holding out much hope.

And don't get me started on the open door policy of the bunker...

They're hunters. They KNOW about supernatural ways of protection and security (apparently) but never use them. It's frustrating. We even saw a sigil used once that trapped humans. Why they've never bothered with it again is just plain stupid.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

The problem is the idea that she is a caring mother. I don't buy she is outside paying lip service to it. Because she knew what the sun dimming meant and she left her boy. The sun was saved, her first instinct was not to go home and kiss her boy but shoot and torture someone she never met.

And I know that me wishing they planned ahead is in airy fairy land but agree with Clueless that Toni is going to be used for the parallels especially in light of knowing both have been with Ketch.

And yeah it is frustrating about the warding. Sam not warding his college home I can forgive as he was abandoning everything and wanting normal. Mary, now they've shown her hunting when Dean was a baby has no excuse and hopefully they will address that if that scene where Dean tells Mary off actually happens.

And don't get me started on the boys not changing the lock on the bunker!

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Anyway, getting back to my point. As easy as it would be to drag the BMoL over into next year, I guess it depends on how much the show runners want to carry over an unpopular storyline. They could decide to just drop it even though it wouldn't be logical within the story for it to be dropped. Plus, we still have to find out who is still really running the BMoL. I'm sure Hess isn't the only one at the top like her.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

I agree that it all depends if the show runners want to carry over the storyline. Because you are right Hess can't be the only one running the BMoL. What would London do with her out of the room?

But Carver dumped almost every aspect of the Levi's and after the couple we saw in purgatory we never saw them again. It is conceivable they would dump them but I want to it make sense why - I want answers to my sub question!!

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I want answers to my sub question!!

Me too. I still think Hess is at least a nod to one of the most recognizable names from the Nazi regime. Plus, he was a real life member of the Thule society. If there's a nod, then it has to be nodding to something, and my guess is that it's the Thule being in charge of the BMoL.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

I'd love it to be that a Thule offshot was running the BMoL. Been wishing that for a long time and I know you've put up with me whining about that damn sub. It would make a lot of sense from a European standpoint, the sub standpoint as well as the indoctrination and the methods the BMoL use and not to mention we had the Hitler episode this season. Why was that episode now, if not to question are the BMoL really any different or to give us a way to tie up the BMoL storyline. I say that as moving a 8 foot Golem around Europe isn't easy, he'd need help. Is there possibly other chapters out there who are in conflict with the BMoL but haven't made their way to the US because the US hunters have been able to keep some sort of balance or they have their own contingency plans.

The only problem is would the showrunners have the guts to do it? Especially in light of the fact that Sam and Mary are in practical terms are thriving under the BMoL and Dean even though itching is going along. If they did we would there is no way they wouldn't have to deal with the emotional consequences of the Winchesters having collaborated and facilitated Nazi's.

Now I know they work with Crowley who can be a power hungry douche, but he's our an equal opportunity power hungry douche who is polite enough not to discuss wanting to commit genocide in front of the brothers. So having the brothers discover they willingly signed on with a rebranded set of Nazi's who never pretended what their methods were would be a different league that Dabb is shoving the brothers towards.

But agree Hess is too much of a recognisable name for that not to be a nod. though didn't know Hess was a member of the Thule. But he did end up in the UK, I know that much.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

how much the show runners want to carry over an unpopular storyline

Do they know it's unpopular? I don't think so. I mean... they think Claire is a fan favourite. How in touch are TPTB with fan nation? If they only read tweets and articles from the "squee" club - then they have no idea.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Maybe? I mean they've intentionally made the BMoL unlikable from the start with Toni, killed off the one sympathetic BMoL character, and have now elevated them to cartoon villains. I would think when they see fans reacting negatively to the BMoL, they think it's a job well done. I don't think we're supposed to like the BMoL. Where they've miscalculated is that I don't think they realize how bad they've made Dean and Sam look in the process. And there are villains we love to hate and then villains we just hate. We just hate the BMoL, not the other, and I think that was another miscalculation on their part, so I'm not sure if they realize that it's unpopular vs. a love to hate kind of situation.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

Good points.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

Why can't they give the Nep Duo the budget to balance or something?

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I wouldn't trust them with that either. At least stop giving them myth arc episodes.

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[–] Icarus (78) 7 years ago

Yikes, since I loath all to do with the BMOL and have not liked Mary for some time now and the writers are the worst of the bunch and that's saying something, I really don't think this is one for me!

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

So an episode written by "them" means that someone will do something epically stupid and get killed. And the plot has advanced from A to B. Didn't we already have a showdown between Toni and Mary? Wasn't that in the second ep of the season? Can Toni just please kill Mary and then Ketch kills Toni and then Dean kills Ketch and then the Nephilum kills Lucifer....you know wrapping up all failed storylines this season all in one episode.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Didn't we already have a showdown between Toni and Mary? Wasn't that in the second ep of the season?

Yes, we did, and they also wrote that episode, so I'm guessing more of the same that we got then?

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Can Toni just please kill Mary and then Ketch kills Toni and then Dean kills Ketch and then the Nephilum kills Lucifer....you know wrapping up all failed storylines this season all in one episode.

I wish.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

"Can Toni just please kill Mary and then Ketch kills Toni and then Dean kills Ketch and then the Nephilum kills Lucifer....you know wrapping up all failed storylines this season all in one episode."

Yes please.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

Cassiopeia I like your ideas. Although I enjoy ketch for some peculiar reason and kinda hope he survives. Mary can die. I'm done with her.

And Dean actually killing something is a novel idea. Haven't seen that in a while. But if devil baby survives we're stuck with it for season 13 I fear. They'll never kill a baby, although I'm expecting it to sprout like a weed and next season will be Luci, Crowley and the boys chasing it all over Vancouver.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

I honestly don't believe Dabb will allow anyone to write a "hero" moment for Dean anymore, at least not this year. And if it doesn't happen, I hope Jensen has a sit down with someone above Dabb's pay grade for next season, if for no other reason than it's making his character look uber lame, and I can't believe that's what Jensen wants for Dean.

I agree that the stupid baby is likely to grow up into an adult immediately, and everyone will be chasing their tails wondering where he is next year. I'm already bored just thinking about it.

I do wonder if Crowley is finally going to be eliminated so Lucifer can take over Hell officially? I just get the feeling that Mark Sheppard may be bored enough to be done with this gig now, and there are hints Pellegrino might be sticking around. If Sheppard is moving on, I can't say I blame him. They've been wasting his talent and character for too long.

I don't give a damn what happens to Mary, but I honestly don't believe Dabb has any intention of getting rid of the skank.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

Mark Sheppard seems pretty keen at conventions. But the writing for him has been so dreadfully dull. And where IS Crowley exactly? His throne room is cramped and cheap looking, and when he summons his minions there's only about 6 of them. Demons are no longer scary (and badly acted).

Where can they go with Crowley? The other Mark isn't having much luck in terms of writing either. A big chunk of the fandom is done with Lucifer. Stick a fork in him, someone. Same shit different day kind of thing.

Same thing with Cas. He's has been in the doldrums for a couple of seasons now. And his powers make no sense anymore and come and go to fit with the script. Hopefully he's recharged his batteries during his stint in heaven and is a bit more interesting.

The show needs a shot in the arm. I've personally reached a point where I don't give a fig about any of them except Dean (and Sam, I guess. Oh, and Baby and Eileen and maybe Jodi).

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Same here.

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[–] Denese121 (135) 7 years ago

Absolutely agree. What really has Crowley done this season? (TBH- I haven't seen the last few, so...) The spoilers and your discussions have me curious. Mark has a growing family. Plus I've loved him since BSG and think he's wicked talented. Maybe he wants to move on?
Andrew Dabb needs to go. This season had its moments, but I haven't been invested. I care more about the board than the show.
And YES. They can kill a child on the show if it's fucking Rosemary's fucking baby.
Done now. At least the brothers look good.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

You haven't missed much. The two Marks spend their days on set posturing and pontificating and repeating the most banal of lines. Meanwhile nothing really happens - although Lucifer seems to have the upper hand at the moment although at this point I don't think anyone really cares.

It's such a waste of Mark Sheppard's talent. I preferred him as the ambitious mischievous CRD.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

And YES. They can kill a child on the show if it's fucking Rosemary's fucking baby.

If they don't want it to be exactly like the Amara storyline with the baby aging up quickly (I really don't really want to see Amara 2.0, although I wouldn't be surprised if they went there), then they'll have to either 1) kill Rosemary's baby this season, and all this build up and 'some monsters are good' talk will have gone nowhere; 2) see the baby isn't bad and send it off to parts unknown (preferably with Mary if Kelly dies); 3) keep it around and have 2 men, an angel, and Mary trying to raise it next season; 4) have Lucifer kill the baby; 5) show Lucifer stealing it, and we'll spend all next season watching Lucifer trying to take care of a baby; 6)If Crowley doesn't die, he could steal it, and then we'll watch he and Rowena trying to raise it next season. Yuck to all of them but maybe option 2.

Am I missing any other options?

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

Hey, how are you quoting from another post?

Because there is absolutely no storytelling talent BTS, I can easily see Dabb stealing the Amara storyline, except probably having the kid grow up a lot faster to get to the adult end-game. I can also see them sending the baby off with Mary, which would be a direct rip-off from "Grimm", mind you. And, sure, Luci could take his son and run off with him too - all of this as predictable as the day is long, which is why any of it could and probably will happen.

None of it is remotely interesting, and if things don't get better for Jensen, none of it will involve Dean for sure anyway.

Honestly, right now I'm only interested in hearing if Mark Sheppard sticks around or moves on. This is the first time I feel like Crowley really might be killed off.

I doubt Misha would go anywhere, but the writing for his character is so incredibly bad and pointless that the character continues not to matter, and I doubt it will get better.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

[quote] words [/quote*

*close the bracket

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

close the bracket

Thanks! Seeing if this works, since that's the way it worked on the old board.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

No problem. Spoiler tags are the same [spoiler] words [/spoiler* and for bold, it's just [b] and the [/b*.

I'm not sure about italics. I think I'll try it now.

*close bracket

ETA: [i] italics [/i*

ETA2: Also, the way to do a link now is [url] link [/url*

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Honestly, right now I'm only interested in hearing if Mark Sheppard sticks around or moves on. I doubt Misha would go anywhere, but the writing for his character continues to be incredibly bad and pointless, and I doubt it will get better.

If Mark P. is sticking around as a regular, I'm finding less and less reason for Mark S. to stay too. Crowley will never be able to be the King of Hell with Lucifer around. I agree about Cas.

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[–] Denese121 (135) 7 years ago

I also vote for option 2.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

At least the brothers look good.

You know what? It's really all we have left at this point lol.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

At least the brothers look good.

They REALLY do, don't they? And - honestly - although I bitch & bark about writing and editing... I'd never complain about the quality of acting. And, for the most part, (except for Crowley's cheap looking basement throne room) the set locations are well done and effective.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

I get Jared and Jensen wanting time off this year. Well wanting their schedules to be more flexible in general.

But the lack of Mark and Misha this year is getting to the point where I can't help but feel that Dabb is pissed at the two of them questioning his magnus opus of a finale last year.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

But the lack of Mark and Misha this year is getting to the point where I can't help but feel that Dabb is pissed at the two of them questioning his magnus opus of a finale last year.

I'm finding that as with Dean and Sam, the substance isn't there for Crowley and Cas even when they are there, which makes them seem even more non-existent.

ETA: word choices for consistency

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

But the lack of Mark and Misha this year is getting to the point where I can't help but feel that Dabb is pissed at the two of them questioning his magnus opus of a finale last year.

I honestly think Dabb's not interested in the 4 regulars. He's forced to write Sam and Dean in because they're the stars of the show but you can tell he'd rather write a whole new show about the BMOL.

If this is how he feels about the co-leads, Mark and Misha, who are already in supporting roles and are never meant to be in every episode to begin with, are even easier to disappear into the background.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

This network show wouldn't have the balls to kill a baby even if some shows would.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

I agree. They won't kill the baby. They'll just kill all our interest in the show by either having it sprout up fast or stolen and a bumbling baby chase begins. Yawn.

I hate being so down on this show. But this season has really done me in. I've been critical before, but I've always cared. Now I just don't care. Even when stories got lame we still had BAMF Dean. He's MIA now.

Over at PrevTV they're calling this season's Dean - Valium!Dean. LOL Pretty apt!

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

They'll just kill all our interest in the show by either having it sprout up fast or stolen and a bumbling baby chase begins.

Personally if they are doing the baby storyline and not having Lucifer absorb the baby then they need to let Kelly live or give the baby to the likes of Rowena or Lily. Someone with the power to actually raise it.

And yeah I hate being more down on the show now than I have ever been. I get why Jensen needed time off but Dabb has essentially drugged him so yeah Valium!Dean is a very apt name.

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

I call it Turducken/Dean. But not as much fun.

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[–] fishpan (544) 7 years ago

Does that mean Dabb is the sandwich???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TB_bhdsf44

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

I think he is the "snot"....

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Zing!

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

I call it Turducken/Dean. But not as much fun.

Hey....I liked Turducken Dean. 😘🍔

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

He was fun!! :)

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

"And yeah I hate being more down on the show now than I have ever been. I get why Jensen needed time off but Dabb has essentially drugged him so yeah Valium!Dean is a very apt name."

The bait and switch episode with Moloch last week was the last straw for me. I'm done watching the show live. I'll check the boards for reactions and if they throw any bone at all to the Dean fans then I will watch. As bad as this season is, at least there were a couple of good Dean episodes which I guess is better than no show at all.

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