Spoilers Toni Bevell
So, I was just on IMDb and saw she's slated to return in episodes 20, 21, and 22. It's IMDb, so it could be nothing, but I thought I'd post it here.
shareBoring ....... Oh well, I wonder how she will fit in if she has three episodes worth. I doubt Sam will get an apology for his troubles. What she put him through and she still gets to walk around. Not overly happy about this one.
shareThe way Sam is going I don't think he deserves an apology. More likely he needs deprogramming as I don't think Toni went rogue I think she did exactly as expected and there is no way in hell she thinks she did anything wrong.
As for the men of letters, I'm not sure where they can go with this except it turning out that they aren't really the Men of Letters in the truest sense, but say the non cartoon branch of the Thule which has taken them over a la Hydra within Shield.
Which in a sense would kind of be interesting and semi social commentary - Sam and Mary essentially having signed up with the hunting version of the alt right and can't get why Dean isn't too happy about it.
"More likely he needs deprogramming"
I agree. I don't understand why he enlists in an organization when he's seen how incompetent and unprepared they can be and then credits them for killing the Alpha when he did most of the work. This whole BMOL storyline feels so contrived to me.
"I don't think Toni went rogue I think she did exactly as expected"
I love this theory. She plays the bad cop, Mick plays the good cop. Who knows what else was in that dream spell Toni used on Sam?
See I can see the argument that both Mick and Toni don't actually know they are basically playing those roles, that the old men have deployed them because they know exactly how they will react. Toni going for the torture implements first and then Mick providing soothing words after and sending people to die in the good fight.
If that is the case then Ketch is really the only member of the men of letters who is in a sense 'woke'. He knows what Toni is, he tolerates Mick's blind side about how dirty the work actually is and he knows exactly what he is getting into. He gets his toys and gets to feed his own brutality. Hence my idea that possibly the Brits aren't in the truest sense the Brits because really in their methodology what is the difference between the Ketch and co and the competent Thule?
Toys check,
Brutality check,
magic check,
compartmentalisation check,
manipulation/strong arming check,
entitlement check,
lack of self awareness check (seriously acting surprised when the group you are exterminating band together and fight back????)
Now I know people are hoping that Sam is just being niave but there is something seriously wrong and yeah it could be Toni's dream juice, it could be Sam is being asked for once not to be the baby of the family and deal with it. Because Mary and Dean's issues with each other don't really have anything to do with him. Which is kind of interesting he could get involved in daddy issues because he had them. His mother issues mostly are lesser than Dean's, sure he's got the deal issues but Dean has the deal, the lying the not being who he remembers and her not addressing all those.
But at the same time I can't say it is exactly out of character for earlier him to join - he hung about with Ruby after he was treated mean and was in a bad emotional place because he needs a support. He lied his face off to both Jess and Amelia when he wanted not to be hunting because it made life easier for himself. So him being the buttmonkey of the organisation that hurt him after they kind of do a non sincere mea culpa is kind of Sam. But Sam pre season 10 and for me that is the problem. Sam's easy way out and the end justify the means let out Amara. So Sam after that wouldn't go 'I don't trust them but I'll work with them'
Mary on the other hand I can completely agree would join She is called a Winchester but she isn't - she is a Campbell and Campbell's fought more like Ketch fights. She lied to John for about a decade when she professed she loved him, she went into a fight with a cosmic entity when 10 weeks gone when she had other options and she left her husband and one year old to go on a hunt without them knowing that there was every possibility that she wouldn't come home. Plus her skills are sharp which means she was probably hunting all the time while with John.
She may love her family in her own way but I don't think she really gets family and from the Mary I've seen, well this may sound cruel but I know they said they can't find John up there. Did anyone check on Adam's mother's heaven. She was a nurse, cute, into John and the only thing she lied to him about was having his child for a number of years and with how they met he probably told her what he was into - just how do you ward against ghouls? Not that she was a killing machine who went from dropping their child off at the child minder to slitting throats.
I'm guessing that hearing his Mom of all people tell him that he could have the life he always wanted is what's appealed to Sam. She knew exactly the right thing to say to sell him on helping the BMoL. I really wish they would've delved into Sam's relationship with Mary a little differently. Of course if she hadn't made her deal, Sam and Dean both wouldn't have been born, but I think the fact that her deal is what lead to Sam being infected with demon blood should be addressed given that Sam, even as recent as season 8 still felt tainted by it. That's a lifetime he's felt like the outsider and like there was something wrong with him. If she was still hunting, and if she knew Azazel's name, then why wasn't she prepared that night in the nursery? Or did she think she was?
I understand that right now, Sam is too afraid to say anything to her that might make her walk away for good, and I also think that they are trying to force a reversal of Sam/John with Dean stuck in the middle (ie Dean/Mary with Sam stuck in the middle, which I really don't like, and as it's been presented with the 'pick a side' thing and the way they had Sam lie to Dean most of the last episode, I think they've made it seem like Sam has chosen Mary over Dean), but there are things I think Sam needs to ask Mary or say to her. Maybe he will if she's around long enough for him to do it, but overall, I think they've dropped the ball with Sam and Mary.
"If she was still hunting, and if she knew Azazel's name, then why wasn't she prepared that night in the nursery? Or did she think she was?"
Good question. I don't understand why they made Mary into a superhunter as soon as she came back. On top of that, they changed history to tell us she never really stopped hunting. That doesn't jive with the woman who was knocking on flickering lamps instead of grabbing the salt and a shotgun. Mary should have come back rusty. The super hunter we have now WOULD have been prepared in "Pilot". She would have still died, but she would have looked more prepared. I just don't like the direction they took with Mary 2.0.
Absolutely, Sam is afraid. It's been very apparent since the beginning. The way he interjects every time Dean tries to hold Mary accountable, like please, please Dean, don't scare her away, don't run her off with your anger, your valid feelings and questions. In a way I understand it. They tried to not make it look so much like Sam was choosing Dean over Mary by making it clear Sam wanted Dean to join them. He still took a wrong turn having Dean work for the BMOL without his knowledge and he shouldn't have needed a pep talk from the Girl of the Week to come clean but I felt his apology to Dean was genuine.
The Winchester Brothers Report by Vee: ▶https://virilemanifestationofthedivine.wordpress.com
I get what you are saying about Sam and Mary, but that really speaks to the arrested development in Sam and I find that kind of sad in a guy in their thirties. I understand it, I truly do, but at the same time it is the thing that has pissed me off in Sam for years. Hell it pisses me off in Batman.
Dean yelled at him to pick a side, to basically own an opinion and his own responses. So basically Dean in some ways told his little brother to grow up. Which I thought what the owning the Darkness being let out was meant to show - Sam, no longer being the guy who justified his mistakes by dragging others into it or making it because he felt inadequate.
As for delving into Mary's relationship with her sons. I think they've dropped the ball on it with all three of them. Sam's issues in wanting to know, why Mary has these skills, Dean's anger. I would like it if someone did pick her up on the state of it. To be an uber hunter off the bat kind of suggests she was sharp when she died. To do that she must have been hunting, hunting with a toddler and baby and a completely oblivious husband at home. It makes me question did John walk out that time because he had gotten to a point where he couldn't trust her to stay home from the little 'trips' she was taking and not explaining about?
But if the writing had painted it as if she was looking for something to break the deal and occasionally came across a monster she killed (the Asa episode) then I think it fandom would understand why she is the way she is now, would be warmer with her. If they had shown that she knew it was coming, she tried to fix it all on her own and failed, she can't look her sons in the eye because she failed, so she grabbed hold of the one thing that made her feel in control (hunting). Then this organisation which she didn't have when she really needed help to stop the deal offers her a way to try and make a world her boys could live in peace like she supposedly wanted. She is trying belatedly to make it right and doesn't know how to communicate that because that means she is admitting she right royally fucked up!
But they haven't really though they've shown her knowing Azazel's name,(but not shown she got that from her sons) they've shown that she was hunting monsters, we have the episode in season 5 where she goes into a fight with an angel knowing she was in her first trimester then pleads her belly to stay with her husband. Then she basically manipulates her son knowing how to hit him without giving us hope that any of the other stuff happened. It leaves us in doubt about why she is doing what she is doing especially in light as her using Campbell thinking and methods.
Maybe I kind of hope they go back to it but I don't know if I see it happening because they haven't invested enough time with Mary interacting with people outside hunting to give us much to work with. That isn't bashing by the way that is a complaint about the writing and the way that females get written on the show the best I am hoping for is at some point we are going to get Rowena tell Mary that the two of them are two peas in a pod when it comes to mothering facilitating a breakdown or something stupid (a la Charlie). While what we need to kind of humanise Mary is us actually seeing her properly bond on a personal level with Jodie (a la Donna) as the Asa episode didn't really have much of the two of them bond outside yeah you are alive the their relationships with the brothers. They could possibly bond over a bottle of wine and a break down of how hard it is to balance what you want and what is in a bloody world with kids you can't mollycoddle.
"I get what you are saying about Sam and Mary, but that really speaks to the arrested development in Sam and I find that kind of sad in a guy in their thirties."
Yeah, I thought they made pretty good strides in maturing Sam last season, and I do think this is backsliding or that having Mary around is regressing Sam, but I also think that now he has his Mom telling him that it's okay if he wants to have that apple pie life (which I find odd considering she never really had one if she continued to hunt), and somehow, I think that in Sam's mind, it gives him permission to do whatever it takes to have what he's always wanted. There's a lot that's missing from this storyline if this is the way they're going with it. She hasn't addressed that she still hunted and therefore never had a 'normal' life, and Sam hasn't addressed what exactly he'd do if the world were rid of monsters. What is he going to be content to be a handyman at another rundown motel while his brother does . . . what?
"As for delving into Mary's relationship with her sons. I think they've dropped the ball on it with all three of them. Sam's issues in wanting to know, why Mary has these skills, Dean's anger."
I think they've done a good job with Dean's anger. I just don't think they've done a good job with the way they've had Mary respond to that anger, so it dampens his position. It's pretty hard to have an argument and get it to go anywhere if the other party doesn't respond.
"But if the writing had painted it as if she was looking for something to break the deal and occasionally came across a monster she killed (the Asa episode) then I think it fandom would understand why she is the way she is now, would be warmer with her. If they had shown that she knew it was coming, she tried to fix it all on her own and failed, she can't look her sons in the eye because she failed, so she grabbed hold of the one thing that made her feel in control (hunting). Then this organisation which she didn't have when she really needed help to stop the deal offers her a way to try and make a world her boys could live in peace like she supposedly wanted. She is trying belatedly to make it right and doesn't know how to communicate that because that means she is admitting she right royally fucked up!"
I agree.
"But they haven't really though they've shown her knowing Azazel's name,"
No, they haven't followed through on Mary knowing Azazel's name, but we do know she recognized him in the nursery, and all she said was 'you'. Maybe she finally got Azazel's name from John's journal. I think the important thing is that there's only so much information she can get from John's journal, which presumably stopped when John died if she thought Azazel was still alive (Meaning Dean and Sam haven't added anything to it). She's been trying to read between the lines on what her sons were doing while her husband hunted instead of filling in those blanks by asking them. I think Dean even referenced this at one point.
I know I've seen other places that some people think that she may have had conversations off screen with her sons about their lives (before she left in episode 3). If she didn't even know that Azazel was dead, then I think this proves that she didn't have those conversations or if she did that Dean and Sam were barely scratching the surface, because they thought they'd have more time and could slowly reveal everything (like Dean said to Cas in episode 2). She can't possibly know that Dean went to Hell, or that her sons stopped the Apocalypse or anything else they've done unless she's getting a skewed idea of their accomplishments from the BMoL, and yet she thinks she knows best and decides to join the BMoL, so she can rid the world of monsters for her sons. Seriously, I'd like to know what she thinks her sons will do without hunting. She couldn't just give it up, but she thinks they can?
" we have the episode in season 5 where she goes into a fight with an angel knowing she was in her first trimester then pleads her belly to stay with her husband."
On this I disagree with you. I think Mary had every right to defend herself from Anna. If she'd simply hidden behind her sons and ran around the house or tried to hide from Anna, it would've been a similarly precarious situation, because Anna was a fully-powered angel who could find her anywhere, so Mary deciding to fight did little to change the overall threat to Dean's life. Just because she was pregnant doesn't mean that she could shut down her natural instincts, and Mary fighting back fit with the character we'd been shown she was in Season 4. I think the problem is that she's no longer that character. In season 4 and 5, there was some warmth to Mary, some naive hope, and now they've completely overhauled that to give us what we're seeing now.
Sorry this is a quick reply but am quickly typing here.
I do get what you are saying about Mary going up against Anna but I can't agree with you as to me it plays into the woman it can be argued we have now - she has very impulsive tunnel vision while lacking that well humanising factor, because she says sorry but still acts in a way that means Ketch is essentially right about her. And yeah loving Ketch, part of me wonders if Toni was essentially sent out to date/recruit him and so was truly a honey trap. She's nuts enough about the cause to do that it seems.
No I'm not saying that Mary should have stayed behind or completely out of it when Dean went down but we should have seen her a little more hesitant on going in or going after Anna when she picked up that blade or at least debate in her head should she be the one to go into the full on fight with Anna when she had to option of both two big burly men taking that position, especially in light of her saying she can't leave John because she was pregnant. They had John drawing sigils later, why not at least have Mary asking and then deciding it maybe too complicated but at least it would have been interesting for her to try and cover her bases.
But her going into that fight to help distract Anna while Sam does a sigil without that then pleading her belly well it kind of makes her more selfishly impulsive than maternal even with that niave hope that was there back then
As for Dean's anger, yeah I agree that he is getting to express it more and more but there is little to no dealing with it other than simply just putting up with not actually resolving it as Mary isn't meeting him in any real way. He just has to get over it and for me that is very frustrating.
"But her going into that fight to help distract Anna while Sam does a sigil without that then pleading her belly well it kind of makes her more selfishly impulsive than maternal."
But it's not like she knew about the sigil at that point. Sam drew the sigil while Anna was preoccupied with the others, but it's not like they had a plan walking into the garage, and Anna had just gone through John and Dean. Mary picked up the angel blade that Dean dropped and did what she thought she had to do to save herself and the others. Impulsive? Maybe, but when not being impulsive in the hunter life can get you killed, because you wait too long to act, then I think she did the right thing.
Then why go? Without knowing the plan. Why pick up the blade instead of throwing to Sam.
Why didn't John insist about taking her to the hospital when he saw her being thrown into a car. He saw the fight, most dads to be seeing their other half being injured in what would be essentially was a car crash would be wanting his pregnant wife to seek some medical attention even if they are told someone is after them. Did he know she was pregnant?
I get it was for a dramatic reveal but the foreshadowing of Mary being pregnant was there - Anna didn't just firebomb the house, she went specially went after John not Mary in the beginning and it was 1978.
It is these little things that kind of put me off Mary from that point and hasn't helped now I know that she did hunt with an oblivious husband at home with a toddler and she is still so sharp that she is essentially an uber hunter who can take on anything thrown at her which means she would still have to be hunting right up to that night in the nursery seeing how Dean got so much stick about being rusty when he took one year out and so did Sam when he went to school.
Can she be redeemed, possibly, could the writers have made her look more sympathetic - damn straight as if they painted it as her still trying to get out of the deal and failing and every decision is linked to that, I'd be team Mary. But they've kind of not done enough not to question is it because she is more Campbell than Winchester.
Though isn't it funny that this is a Toni thread and its turned into a discussion about Mary and no one has complained?
"It is these little things that kind of put me off Mary from that point . . ."
See, fighting while she was pregnant isn't what put me off of Mary, but the way she lied to John for over 10 years and basically left him to figure out everything on his own after she died might have made me think of her as flawed, someone who wasn't a hapless victim of circumstance the way she was portrayed at the start, and someone who was at least partially responsible for the way John turned out as a father.
I'm not sure what telling John about everything would've changed, but I think if she'd trained him, maybe they could've worked on the YED problem together before she died. Even if she'd still died, John wouldn't have had to spend decades finding out about the supernatural world to the exclusion of everything else, presumably starting with small things to get more experience, while also learning as much as possible about the thing that killed his wife, so he could kill it and keep Sam under it's radar until it was dead.
I think he knew it would come for Sam again, since it was in Sam's nursery. I think that's why he reacted so badly to Sam running away when he was 14 and why he reacted so badly when Sam went to college. What he sacrificed in pursuit of those things was Dean (Dean's childhood, self worth, etc.) and having a fatherly relationship with both of his sons. John was a deeply flawed character with depth, but they don't seem to be giving the same kind of depth to Mary.
I think before this season, I was willing to see Mary as interesting, flawed and somewhat like Sam. Sam didn't tell Jess about his family or past, not just because he wanted to have a normal life and keep Jess from running for the door, but because after having left the life, he seemed to naively believe that the supernatural wouldn't still come after him (Again if John had ever been honest with his sons and told Sam why he didn't want Sam moving away/staying in one place, Jess would probably still be alive. If Sam had been honest with Jess, then the same thing is true. It's another issue of people lying by omission about what they know and Dean, Sam, and the people close to them suffering for those omissions).
But the thing that now differentiates Mary from Sam in my mind is that we've found out that she was still hunting, which makes less sense than what Sam did, because even if the YED hadn't given her a 10-year deadline, any of the things she hunted in those 10 years (or their packs/families) could have followed her home. While Sam didn't have any real reason to think that, since he didn't remember the striga and Dean kept anything like that from happening again, Mary had first-hand experience with something following her home after a hunt, namely the YED. It's what killed her parents, so I doubt she'd forget that lesson.
To me, these are all things that need to be addressed, and they haven't been. Mary still thinks of John as a bit of a softie, a good dad (even though she's been reading his journal, we haven't seen that her opinion in this regard has changed), and the only thing we've seen to counter that was a look from Dean that said otherwise but that she didn't seem to catch. None of the things she did or didn't do during those 10 years when it came to the YED or hunting have been discussed, and you're right. If they'd shown her as having tried and failed to do something about her deal, it would make her more relatable.
I think the only way to have her be redeemed is for her to have the BMoL blow up in her face and for her to go to her sons, hat in hand, say she was wrong, and make an active effort to get to know her sons as they are now. It'd almost clear the slate and have her doing something they should've had her do at the start of the season (get to know her adult sons).
If she's having problems adjusting to them being adults, I can understand that. While Dean and Sam have both been gone for extended periods of time, the other one was pretty much the same when they got back (i.e. while Dean had been in Hell for 40 years, it'd only been 4 months to Sam and vice versa when Sam's soul was in the cage). Mary's story is unique in that sense. I can also understand her struggling with new technology even though she seems to have caught on pretty well to the BMoL gadgets without any problems. But both of those things are issues she should've dealt with on screen. Taking her off-screen to deal with them leaves a lot of her journey incomplete and makes her less likable when all we seen on-screen is the cold, hard, lying hunter.
"Though isn't it funny that this is a Toni thread and its turned into a discussion about Mary and no one has complained?"
I find it liberating. Breathing a sigh of relief now as I hit 'add reply.'
"See I can see the argument that both Mick and Toni don't actually know they are basically playing those roles, that the old men have deployed them because they know exactly how they will react. Toni going for the torture implements first and then Mick providing soothing words after and sending people to die in the good fight."
I'm loving your theories about this, Fishpan.
"If that is the case then Ketch is really the only member of the men of letters who is in a sense 'woke'. He knows what Toni is, he tolerates Mick's blind side about how dirty the work actually is and he knows exactly what he is getting into. He gets his toys and gets to feed his own brutality."
Also in violent agreement (a Deanism lol) with this assessment. That scene where he tells Mick, I don't know how you think things go down in the comfort of your ivory tower but out here on the field people die, showed a clear separation between Mick and Ketch. They're both BMOLs but they are very different. Mick is the intellectual with no field experience. Ketch has the muscle + the brain + enough psycho to make the job fun and not care about the monsters or the humans feelings when comes the time to clean up. I guess that's why he's been my favorite from the jump. Mick comes across as a silly idealist living on a cloud. Him thinking Wally was actually complimenting him when he noticed his soft hands told me how clueless he is lol.
"lack of self awareness check (seriously acting surprised when the group you are exterminating band together and fight back????)"
Yet another example that Mick lives on a cloud. Meanwhile, Ketch was hunting the remaining vamps because he knew them being out in the wild was bad news for everyone.
"Now I know people are hoping that Sam is just being niave but there is something seriously wrong and yeah it could be Toni's dream juice, it could be Sam is being asked for once not to be the baby of the family and deal with it."
I don't think Sam is naive. I think he's making questionable decisions and following the wrong people, again. Sure, these wolves come wrapped in sheep clothing, contrary to the straight up evil/abusive people he's chosen before but his lack of caution in following them is quintessential Sam. He's always had a blind spot about certain people, things and situations. I find it incredibly frustrating but it's part of the character.
"Because Mary and Dean's issues with each other don't really have anything to do with him. Which is kind of interesting he could get involved in daddy issues because he had them. His mother issues mostly are lesser than Dean's, sure he's got the deal issues but Dean has the deal, the lying the not being who he remembers and her not addressing all those."
I agree.
"But at the same time I can't say it is exactly out of character for earlier him to join - he hung about with Ruby after he was treated mean and was in a bad emotional place because he needs a support. He lied his face off to both Jess and Amelia when he wanted not to be hunting because it made life easier for himself. So him being the buttmonkey of the organisation that hurt him after they kind of do a non sincere mea culpa is kind of Sam."
It is.
"But Sam pre season 10 and for me that is the problem. Sam's easy way out and the end justify the means let out Amara. So Sam after that wouldn't go 'I don't trust them but I'll work with them'"
I don't know. He keeps saying he chose this life but clearly he's still holding on to the dream of a world without monsters. I think he can justify his choice to a degree because what hunter wouldn't want to be part of an effort to rid the world of monsters? That's exactly what their job is. My problem is him trusting the BMOLs period. He says he doesn't yet acts like he does.
"She may love her family in her own way but I don't think she really gets family and from the Mary I've seen, well this may sound cruel but I know they said they can't find John up there. Did anyone check on Adam's mother's heaven. She was a nurse, cute, into John and the only thing she lied to him about was having his child for a number of years and with how they met he probably told her what he was into - just how do you ward against ghouls? Not that she was a killing machine who went from dropping their child off at the child minder to slitting throats."
I think Ash couldn't find John anywhere in Heaven, period, but then in "The Foundry", Mary said she was with him, as well as the kid versions of Sam and Dean in heaven: "I miss John. I miss my boys." although it was probably a construct of John and not the real thing because we know for a fact neither Sam nor Dean is dead and in Heaven. Maybe the nurse also has her construct of John in her Heaven, but where is the real John???
The Winchester Brothers Report by Vee: ▶https://virilemanifestationofthedivine.wordpress.com