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Life would suck as a natural born human in Zion


There are two groups of humans in Zion. You have the humans who were part of the Matrix and were freed, and the humans like Dozer who were born naturally in Zion. One of the main differences between them is that the natural born humans do not have the plugs from being in the Matrix, and can't jack into the Matrix.

They also can't download information like we see Neo and Trinity doing a couple times, and I think that would have fairly serious effects.

Think about elementary school down in Zion. "Class please plug into your computers. Today you will be downloading the entirety of human knowledge on Calculus. Dozer you won't be able to participate, so keep working on your multiplication tables over there."

Anyone with a plug has the ability to download mass amount of information and reduce formal schooling down to a very small amount of time. Zion would unintentionally be broken up between these superhumans who can learn any complicated skill or concept instantly, and the unfortunately inferior natural born humans who have to do things the much harder way.

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I always wondered, are they able to do kung fu in the real world or does the knowledge only apply within the laws of the Matrix?

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Yeah I was trying to figure that out today too. I think it applies in the real world also. We know that the training program can't just be diagrams of fighting motions and objective information because Neo instantly sees better reflexes and the type of muscle memory that you only get from practice.

In the real world you would be much weaker and slower, but I think you would still have the fighting skills and knowledge.

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Unless they also train in the real world then no. In the third movie you can see neither Neo nor Smith/Bane ddid fancy kung fu in the real world.

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I imagine they have the mental knowledge of kung fu perhaps like an old practitioner who has lost their physicality through accident/aging/etc. But not at the same level as their digital self since you have to develop your muscles for it still.

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Zion would unintentionally be broken up between these superhumans who can learn any complicated skill or concept instantly, and the unfortunately inferior natural born humans who have to do things the much harder way.

well... someone has to clean the toilets, even in Zion!

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Anyone with a plug has the ability to download mass amount of information and reduce formal schooling down to a very small amount of time. Zion would unintentionally be broken up between these superhumans who can learn any complicated skill or concept instantly, and the unfortunately inferior natural born humans who have to do things the much harder way.


It's interesting to think about certainly. Redpills are essentially cyborgs. They are evidence that humans are becoming more machine-like. Whereas the Machines are taking on more and more human traits.

So yeah, it seems like these "regular" humans would be left in the dust. The war served as a unifying force that probably kept the infighting in Zion to a minimum. With the war being over, the possession of (or lack of) implants has the potential to be a source of conflict or division inside the city. I could easily see factions being formed dividing the Haves from the Have Nots.

So how would that work? Regular humans are not only at a disadvantage but also vastly outnumbered. Does there ever come a time when humans try to duplicate the implant process? Are people without implants shunned? Or are they made to be subservient and "clean toilets" as Criztu implied?

I think conflict would be inevitable at some point. It's just human nature.

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With the war being over, the possession of (or lack of) implants has the potential to be a source of conflict or division inside the city.


I think we dont see this because Zion is a mess and chaotic to start with. They are understaffed and overwhelmed by the machine threat and use and resource they have, so we don't see any division between the Haves and Have Nots.

After the war, I think it would likely turn into the situation that I have been proposing and you seem to agree with.

Does there ever come a time when humans try to duplicate the implant process? Are people without implants shunned? Or are they made to be subservient and "clean toilets" as Criztu implied?


I'm guessing that for awhile it would be frowned upon to have a kid naturally. If you havent seen Gattaca, I think it would be like what we see in that movie where kids without genetic engineering were at severe disadvantages and were avoided by society. I think eventually they would replicate the technology to create these plugs and improve these people's way of lives, but until then it would suck. They would be stuck in manual labor and unskilled jobs with no chance of ever getting something better.

Even creative arts like painting and music would probably have them at a disadvantage. Those fields are mostly relient on creativity and skill, but someone with an implant would certainly have an advantage in the objective elements. They could spend one day and download all the music theory knowledge, all info about acoustics and physical properties, essentially memorize any song in human history and the patterns behind them, and plenty of other things.

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normal distribution

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Very interesting topic. With a lot of sub concepts. Think about too how having such a small population during a war , puts even more pressure on anyone to do something with what life they have and help civilization/fight for Zion.

But , we're assuming that Zion has a ton of computers like the ones on the ships , allowing children to plug in and learn a lot. It might be such a rare resource that they simply can't do this.

It also makes you wonder , where did all of this come from? Monitors, electrical cables, the ability for Zion to manufacture what it does is extraordinary. They never say , but since the machines came up with the concept of having a 'false sense of security' by allowing a group to get out and live in the real world , perhaps the machines first also planted and provided all the equipment the human 'survivors' would need.
But do none of the humans question where it came from? To each person living in Zion , they assume this has been ongoing for over 200 years, (and that's only because they are told it's closer to 2199 , it could very well be the year 3000 for all they know, especially if things have been reset 5 times before.
It would be interesting to see the experience of 'the one' freeing 16 or whatever people and establishing Zion. Each time they must have though " wow, we found an old abandoned facility with everything we need to survive and the computer parts needed to build our own hover crafts and computers to help free others"

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It would be interesting to see the experience of 'the one' freeing 16 or whatever people and establishing Zion. Each time they must have though " wow, we found an old abandoned facility with everything we need to survive and the computer parts needed to build our own hover crafts and computers to help free others"

Exactly right. The 23 original Zionites (16 females, 7 males) in each cycle are as clueless and controlled as the ones still in The Matrix. They live in an artificial environment built for them by machines and remain clueless as to their own captivity, control and true purpose.

Doesn't matter if humans live in Zion or The Matrix, their entire lives and existence are to serve as the energy source for the Machine World. They are basically cattle, bred, herded and slaughtered as the need arises.

And after Neo's big sacrifice of his own (and Trinity's) life, what changes? Not much. Instead of being wiped out when the population of Zion reaches 250,000, they will be allowed to keep living in Zion. Eventually they will run out of space, food, air etc. and starvation and disease will kill them off instead of squids. The other billions, the vast majority of humanity, will continue to live in The Matrix as before.

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It makes me wonder too , if Zion was actually necessary. In the end I guess it was, but I wonder if having a 'matrix' within a matrix would have worked just as well to the outliers who rejected The Matrix reality. When they were 'selected by the one' and freed , what if they were actually still plugged in but put into a fake 'real world' , would they have fallen for it , never having to actually lose anyone in pods, or would they start to reject that Zion as well.

I assume the machines couldn't scan and predict who these outlier people were over the years , people they knew Zion would eventually free, otherwise all they had to do was take them out one by one as they popped up, especially the anomalies( the ones)

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I don't think Zion matters either way. The humans had no chance against the machines. The machines could come and wipe out Zion at any time if they felt like doing so. Having the free humans in the real world in Zion vs having them in a separate layer of the Matrix probably wouldnt affect the machine world much either way.

But if there was a benefit to having humans trapped within the Matrix, there would definitely be many layers. They could make the real world hidden by 100 layers of fake real worlds and no one would ever make it out of the confusion and even if they did they wouldnt believe they were actually free yet.

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I don't think Zion matters either way. The humans had no chance against the machines. The machines could come and wipe out Zion at any time if they felt like doing so.

Yep.

The way it is presented, the Machines have decided that NOW is the time to destroy Zion because of what Morpheus says: "We have freed more minds in the past six months than in the past six years."

The Matrix is becoming unstable because more and more people are questioning it. Time to wipe the slate clean and start a new cycle with new people, new memories and eventually, a new Morpheus and a new Neo to start the cycle over again.

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It makes me wonder too , if Zion was actually necessary. In the end I guess it was, but I wonder if having a 'matrix' within a matrix would have worked just as well to the outliers who rejected The Matrix reality.

That would belie one of the basic parameters of The Matrix, which is that the human mind is too powerful and perceptive to "fool all the people, all the time" as Lincoln put it.

I assume the machines couldn't scan and predict who these outlier people were over the years , people they knew Zion would eventually free, otherwise all they had to do was take them out one by one as they popped up, especially the anomalies( the ones)

In my opinion, this is taking too much of a scientific approach to the problem. I think the Wachowskis intended The Matrix to be more of a social commentary on OUR world (autobiographical even) than to create a "strange new world of the future".

As I see it, The Matrix (first movie) was meant to be a wake-up call to the "sheep" of the world who blindly live trapped within "the machine" (rage against it!)

I think the Wachowskis gradually realized that most people don't want to be woken up and they realized that the secret powers behind the open and out front powers can use your work against you. Make money and line their pockets even with a movie which is meant to expose their secret power structure. Thus Reloaded and Revolutions shows the powers behind the powers of The Matrix.

I think The Wachowskis really thought of Zion as a wonderful, free place to live while making Matrix 1. But as they learned more about Hollywood, Zion became more and more of an illusion; a place built by the machines to siphon off energy from radicals who have seen through the first level of illusion. Thus in Reloaded and Revolutions, Zion becomes a dark, decadent, overcrowded place, rather than a place of joy and hope.

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Since the technology exists for humans to be plugged in and download information, perhaps the really smart people with plugs would have found a way for Zion people to download information to their brain without making the plug for jack a permanent part of their body. Maybe it can be removable plug. Or maybe they have doctors who can install and remove them after the use for occasional downloads. Obviously they wouldn't need to go to school for years like we do, so maybe they just need a few months of installing a plug and removing it.

Or maybe they have such smart people that information can be downloaded for the normies by taking a pill with a chip inside that goes to the brain and installs whatever subject they want to learn.

When you have such smart people living in Zion, the possibilities are endless because those are really capable people with easy access to info and they understand technology and computers.

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Definitely possible, although I don't think all of this technology existed during the events of the movie. If they had the ability to give plugs to natural born humans, I think they would. Dozer is much less useful than the rest of the crew without the ability to go into the Matrix.

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Definitely possible, although I don't think all of this technology existed during the events of the movie. If they had the ability to give plugs to natural born humans, I think they would. Dozer is much less useful than the rest of the crew without the ability to go into the Matrix.

Yes, and that is completely messed up.

It shows that the main purpose of Zion is still entirely wrapped up with The Matrix. The whole thing, Matrix+Zion is a big cage. A "zoo" as Agent Smith put it, to contain the machines' energy source.

The question for me is, what does the ending of Revolutions mean? Now that Zion isn't going to be destroyed, what is going to happen to it? It is already overcrowded, with all those people crammed into tiny tube-like apartments.

Will they start trying to build a bigger cave for themselves? Figure out underground gardens that don't need sunlight and fresh air, so they can stop eating white gooey slop?

Or will they tunnel up to the surface and try to figure out how to clear the sky so they can have sunlight and fresh air and live on earth's surface as we were meant to do?

I think Revolutions leaves us with the pessimistic view that neither of those scenarios is going to take place. Humans will remain the slaves of Machines and the earth will continue to be dominated by this new, superior, digital life form.

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I would imagine there would be some kind of discrimination going on between these 2 if you really think about it. I imagine the natural humans would consider themselves more human as they were conceived and born naturally, they also learn everything naturally, develop naturally, etc. But they would be at a disadvantage on any task or shooling because they have to learn the old fashioned way. Plus we all have our interests and non interests don't we? We tend to do better, concentrate better, and learn easily for subjects that take our interest, Yet for the plugged humans, it doesn't really matter, they don't have to devote excruciatingly boring, tedious, time consuming effort on studying hard-to-concentrate-subjects they have no interest in or even loathe. They can simply download it and it's done, no effort done to actually learn naturally.

But I imagine once the plugged humans are located in areas where they can't plug in and have to learn the old fashioned way, then they will then be at a disadvantage because they would've become too reliant on their downloads and won't develop the skill, discipline, concentration, and patience to focus and learn something as quickly as one can using our senses.

I also imagine that the differences between a natural and plugged human will also be based on their cultural upbringing, similar to a wealthy first nation person as opposed to a poor 3rd nation person. The plugged humans are also wealthy first worlders compared to the 3rd world natural humans. The plugged human grew up at the height of human civilization in the late to early 21st century. A world with towering buildings/structures, paved roads, the sky blue at daytime and starry nights at the end. They have many consumer products surrounding them, they have media like films and music, ads, etc. Whereas the natural humans only have the remnants of all of these things living as refugees in an underground facility, war 24/7 ever since they were born. I imagine the plugged humans to be more spoiled, bratty, and over-privileged, the opposite of a natural human. And that these two groups will tend to keep to themselves when they marry or befriend others as people tend to be drawn to others with similar experiences.

I'm a Filipina, if I were living in a foreign land, I see myself getting excited if I met another Filipino as we would have a similar cultural background somewhat. We could speak in our language, talk about our food or customs or experiences bound only to those who grew up in the Philippines. I imagine it would be similar for these 2 groups. Imagine growing up watching films and anime, or listening to Rock bands like Oasis and the Beatles or growing up during a cultural revolution - wouldn't you want to talk about such things eventually? Could natural humans have similar experiences you and other plugged humans have even if they are familiar with these interests? Sure there would be a few from the 'other' group you would be close/befriend, but I imagine the majority will tend to keep to their peer group, especially if discrimination makes the differences even more stark and dividing.

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Here's what I have to say about that:

https://justpaste.it/1e7ol

I would write my reply here, but this has an awfully tight char limitation, which IMDb discussion boards didn't have, so this is the only way for me to reply nowadays.

I don't understand why they have such limitations for text.. text doesn't take much space in 2017, for crying out loud.

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I'm glad this site exists,but it does have many issues.

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This was probably my number one thought about this movie when i was a kid. I'd be so jealous of being "home grown" human and not having instant access to endless knowledge & entertainment simulations.

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