MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > Hollyweed, can you STOP KILLING MASCULIN...

Hollyweed, can you STOP KILLING MASCULINITY IN MEN, please?


[NOTE: if you can't read the whole thing just skip to the 3rd point and the 1st link at the end]

1. Do you know any present, somewhat young male movie character or actor overall, that could inspire boys to be masculine (including working out, of course)?
Well, I don't. Because even Chris Hemsworth is playing a wacky characters who get constantly humiliated for laughs!
Meanwhile many years ago we had Schwarzenegger and Stallone at their prime, Gerard Butler, Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, Russell Crowe, Clint Eastwood, Brad Pit (at least in Fight Club, a popular movie), etc. Just watching those guys train or do nearly anything made my blood and adrenaline pump up. To this day Rocky's training montages are an irreplaceable motivation for workout, in my opinion.

2. It's not okay to have "sexist" remarks against women, even in fiction (including animated stuff and comics), even if they're just in form of a jokes, but it's completely fine when they're targeted towards men.
Do these lines sound familiar to you? To paraphrase:

"You boys act so silly and childish" (when men get into an argument or even a fight)

"All men are pigs!"

"Girl power!"

"Oh, what would you do without me?"

"Are (all) men really that dumb?" or "Why are men so dumb?"


But do you know why men were so silent about stuff like these for so long? I think it's because we generally don't give a crap about insults as much as women do (I mean, men constantly insult each other), probably due to the differences in our hormones which some transgender people have noticed too. Also, because the female characters were usually attractive, so it felt like a recompense to some guys... I guess? (it genuinely is a thing in japanese works for instance... from what I've noticed at least)

3. Do these cliches feel familiar to you? (NOTE: they don't happen ALWAYS, but most of the time, and, usually, in action/adventure genres)

-Male character is the dumbest and/or weakest one, or weaker than at least one female in the team;

-Male character is the more passive one, while the female character is very masculine in comparison;

-Male character is forced to get owned by a female character for gag scenes, even if he doesn't deserve it. The opposite BARELY EVER happens, and usually ends with the girl taking revenge on the male a few seconds later;

-Male protagonist is small, looks really weak and acts pretty awkwardly, but still gets the girl that was way more confident and attractive than him the entire time;

-Male characters are more likely to be defeated/humiliated by a kid or some animal, or environment itself...;

-Male protagonists are unlikely to show off how cool/good they are at something without a female interrupting him or trying to put him down after a moment. Meanwhile, when female character does something "breathtaking", the male character(s) has to stand there in awe (example: Ironman 2 - Black Widow and Happy fighting in the hall against numerous guards);

-Males are more likely to lose in competitions or duels against females, unless they cheat or the female opponent is a negative character.

4. Another way to realize the drop in masculinity is just by comparing current Spider-man to the previous ones! In current movies he is this boy who acts hyper awkward and stressed out even while wearing the COSTUME. And no, he was NOT like this in the comics, certainly not to that degree!
The scene in Endgame with Captain Marvel standing proudly above Peter with a smug on her face while the boy is shaking, is scared, and yet, who still is super, childlishly even, polite - is very symbolic of the twisted agenda working at Hollywood, and a wet dream of certain women (and men too) who don't understand that a lapdog men will never satisfy them. *sighs*
And no, that last conclusion didn't come out of my hatred towards modern feminism, but out of experiences of countless of men I read and heard about! Including the ones in my family. And including many women themselves - in short, they say that the submissive, cute boys are only fun at the beginning or until they find a new, more masculine love interest, or until they become old enough to realize that a weak man won't satisfy their needs.
There are studies that prove that, there are social experiments that prove that, and I have quite a lot of personal experience that proves that too. If you don't want to believe it then that's on you, I'm not going to start fighting over this argument when the point of this topic is a little different.


5. Women are portrayed to be as physically capable as men, or even more capable, way too often. And I'm not talking just about some obvious fantasy settings where rules are different from the real world, but about more realistic takes, including even John Whick or Zombieland. I get it, those movies are still exaggerated in their own ways, but the men there are CLEARLY way more realistic than a dude who can throw thunder or a car at you.
[[continuation in the posts below]]

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Why is that a problem? I think that because of this, and the previous points, you're killing passion in boys.
Passion to train themselves to protect others, especially girls and women. Overall, men like being needed and fight/compete, by nature. And it's pretty obvious to me, personally, that after the "girl power!" movies females won't suddenly start training to become stronger (I remind you such productions existed much earlier too). They usually don't have this fighting spirit in them that guys have. And even in the rare cases when they do, they need to spend a lot more time to become as strong as their male counterparts.
Meanwhile, boys may feel discouraged to be protective, because they may be thinking that girls are just as strong as them, so what's the point in giving a crap? Especially when the current "men" in movies are, like I said, a goofballs who have to deal with a sassy, cold-blooded female "badasses" that need no men, but will gladly put them down in a heartbeat instead. I mean, what can put you off more from working out as a teenager than seeing a skinny woman that easily beats up a man (or men) with Hercule-like muscles, all while she acts arrogant and proud of how much better she is?

This also obviously sets a bad example for girls who should learn to embrace their own traits they are comfortable with (that are usually connected to their gender), instead of treating femininity as a weakness and thinking that they're a LITERAL equals to boys. And treating boys like trash too (I mean, the fact that girls find Captain Marvel a good role model, makes me feel worried).

6. Men have instincts that normally WANT us to protect women when we see them in a seemingly bad situation (like some man screaming on them publicly, even if he is of similar size the woman is, according to social experiments), but, out of spite, more and more men may eventually stop protecting women. And, if this keeps up, I hope they will,
because that

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may teach some people a bit of respect towards hardworking men, that includes the Hollyweed writers and financers who will hopefully become the victims of this too!
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AND HERE ARE SOME EXAMPLES of people thinking similarly to me, just so you know I'm not some special kind of weirdo

:3

https://imgur.com/a/UQKymmJ ( scroll down for more)

https://springhole.net/writing/female-character-issues.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jumw30_j9cs

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You need an editor.

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Can't disagree.

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Honestly, more people will read what you have to say when not faced with a wall of text. I got to the end of the second paragraph and thought, 'hold on, how long does this go on for?' Scrolled down and gave up (which might just be my problem, so there's that).

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No, it's not just your problem, Andy. A wall of text is a no-go for me, too.

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then click on the 1st link in the last part of my post

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A half hour video is hardly succinct, lol.

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...it's a 3rd link...

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Oops, my bad, I read it as last link.

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I just glanced at that “wall of text” while scrolling. My stylus needs a new tip and I need a nap! 😴 Succinctness is not this poster’s strong suit. I would guess verbosity is.

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My iPad ran out of charge.

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Three days later I have finished the last sentence. Here's what I take from this...

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Ignore the people with no attention span. This stuff is meaningless to them. I enjoyed reading it and you made some great points.

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Hey! I resemble that remark.

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Thanks, means a lot!

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I have an attention span, its just that going from the title there's an extremely high chance that the 1000 word essay is going to be a load of babbling bullshit and a waste of my time.

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You and I think totally different.

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Watch movies from the 1930-70s... From all over the world.

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That wouldn't really fix anything, would it? Unless I'd magically make everyone watch them.

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It would. If people saw greatness, they might start asking for it. But that won't happen until you see the real thing.

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[deleted]

Okay, so just so that I'm clear here, you think that masculinity means working out and protecting weaker women who in no way could be stronger than a man??


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It means more, but in action movies, that are targeted towards male audiences mostly, I remind you, these are one of the major traits for men, yes. Including confidence
Also, I clearly wrote "Women are portrayed to be as physically capable as men, or even more capable, way TOO OFTEN" - not that being more capable once upon some time is a no-no too.
That being said, if the female character is as strong/er than a man who he himself is stronger than vast majority/all of other men in the world, then that certainly is unrealistic. Unless the woman is the only one working out...

And I think you should read the entire thing, without skipping stuff on the way. Because you might've missed stuff like: "females generally don't work out and fight as often as men do"
or
"we should teach girls that femininity is great too, especially because it's more natural to them"

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I did read the whole thing.

I just think that lumping masculinity or femininity in neat little box isn't helpful for anyone.

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Nature is not playing your political games, girls are going to be like girls vast majority of the time, just like boys are going to be like boys vast majority of the time. It's better to make stuff suitable for what they like than to satisfy needs of minorities and brainwash the majorities at the same time, weakening the society as a whole. We never needed it before and yet we have SoMeHoW progressed quite naturally and calmly during that time.

And it still doesn't change the fact that men are being shitted on in fiction quite regularly.

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They aren't my political games to start. I'm just someone who enjoys movies. I don't understand how kicking ass and working out is boys being boys. Even before the world became PC, I didn't see many average men bulking up like Stallone. I also didn't see that many in movies either aside from a few 80's action men.

Yul Brynner didn't have a six pack in the ten commandments. I think Scott Eastwood is more buff than Clint was. I think perhaps you are stuck on one kind of masculinity. Does Hugh Jackman not count as masculine because as manly as he was as Wolverine the second he puts on tap shoes he's no longer a man? Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire were huge stars before the world was so PC.

There are plenty of testosterone films out there if you want to look. Just because one directors thoughts on Spiderman is that he is still a kid and might have fears doesn't mean that cinema is shitting on men.

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It's obviously not just about being buff as I've mentioned Chris Hemsworth. There is the special kind of respect and aura that men got in the past that is obviously missing in most of the modern works. And the female characters are partly the ones who took it from them, which I mentioned in the "cliche" section (2nd point). You can also click on the 1st link to see that many people've noticed the same.

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If women are taking the respect from men, perhaps it's because modern male characters don't deserve respect??

Yeah, with the cliches, are all the men portrayed that way? Or are you referring to a movie like Ghostbusters? I have no problem admitting that some of the genderswap movies have some cliche and poorly written characters, but I also don't think that the females are well written either. In regards to your cliches which movies? If comedy, which I don't watch, then someone obviously finds it funny or these movies wouldn't be making money.

I do have a problem with you saying

This also obviously sets a bad example for girls who should learn to embrace their own traits they are comfortable with (that are usually connected to their gender), instead of treating femininity as a weakness and thinking that they're a LITERAL equals to boys. And treating boys like trash too (I mean, the fact that girls find Captain Marvel a good role model, makes me feel worried).


First of all your grammar isn't great. It should be "thinking that they're literal equals", and then yes, girls are equal to boys. How many movies really treat males like trash? I would like examples from your opinion not some imgur post. If girls want to look up to a strong, kick ass, female role model, why shouldn't they? Also Captain Marvel is an alien, so your argument doesn't hold up for me as the same rules don't apply.

In short, if you don't like the way men are portrayed, write your own film.

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If those men don't deserve respect, then the female characters that act way worse than them don't deserve it either yet got all the applause.

By that I meant that girls don't have the same set of weaknesses and strengths that boys have.

Action movies especially. In MCU movies for instance, it has happened at least in Antman, Ragnarok and Endgame.

In that case it's more about the personality of Cap. Marvel and how girls are supposed to look up to her

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just watch John Wayne and Bogart movies.

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Do you mean like "new masculinity"?

https://media.gq.com/photos/5d9f80c59ea117000848d0d7/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/pharrell-williams-cover-gq-november-2019.jpg

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At the bottom of this page...
'You wont believe Big Bird's totally stunning makeover'

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‘The tragic reason why Mr Snuffleuppagus has baggy fur’.

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'We now know why Elmo refuses to do nude scenes'

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‘The sad truth about Cookie Monster’s cookie addiction’.

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'Bert and Ernie love scenes that went too far'

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‘The real reason Hollywood won’t employ The Grouch’.

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'Abby Cadabby is grown up now and simply gorgeous'

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‘All the times The Count lied to your face’.

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Well, OTOH I don't think rape or semi rape scenes from Blade Runner,Basic Instinct,Cape Fear or High Plains Drifter(Eastwood) are example of masculinity either.

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Seriously boys, quit shaving dem ballsacs!

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Ha! Froggy! The only male types who would dare to shave in that area are certainly..... out of bounce. 😎

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👍🤣

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You know one thing old school Hollywood tough guys never did? They never whined like babies about being intimidated by seeing strong women.

I believe if men want to be treated like men they should start acting like men and stop complaining about the world with a permanent sense of victimhood.

The alpha male isn't dead in movies. Look at Taken, Rambo, anything starring Jason Statham or Dwayne Johnson, anything directed by Guy Ritchie (excpet for the period Madonna had his nuts in a vice) - there are plenty of examples of males taking on traditional masculine roles in movies if you look for them. If, on the other hand, you flinch and get personally aggrieved every time you see a powerful women holding her own on screen, then it might be you and not Hollywood that may need to think about manning up.



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They never whined but they never felt like standing there in awe, getting owned by them, and looking worse overall, genius.

Okay, then how many movies can you name when the opposite happens to what I mentioned in the "cliched" section?

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No one would disagree that The Hulk is masculine, but he doesn't workout. Unless you count breathing. I'm still confused. What are we talking about?

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Bette Davis owned EVERY man she starred opposite. Katherine Hepburn took little shit in most of her roles too.

Sorry I don't know where the "cliched" section is, I skimmed your post again and still couldn't find it. Happy to discuss though if you want to reiterate (or copy and paste) the part you're referring to.

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I think we're talking about a bit different things

Read the 3rd point

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Jeez bro don't make it easy for me or anything.... ;)

I see the section now. Are you asking me to provide examples to disprove points you didn't provide examples for yourself? That's whacky as.

Without any sarcasm at all I honestly don't notice those things happening regularly in movies. Maybe we are watching different types of films. I guess even if there is a scene where a man is emasculated by his female co-star, I wouldn't find that personally offensive. I might think "what a pussy!" but would never let it effect my own sense of manhood.

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I mean, if you're watching more quality stuff than the mainstream, then you surely could notice it less frequently. But there certainly are people who see what I do (mentioned in the links, at the end).

And it doesn't make ME feel emasculated, because, to me, they are just an annoying tropes that I wish would die, especially if they wanna play this "equality" thing. However they could potentially affect kids in the wrong way, I THINK.

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To that point, would you prefer modern movies to provide strong, inspirational female role models for young girls, or have "traditional" female roles so girls grow up believing they should be subservient to men and be good wives and mothers who don't stand up for themselves or challenge aggressive men or match and sometimes outdo their male counterparts? None of that threatens masculinity to me, either individually or on a societal level. Kick-ass women are sexy.

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If you are going to teach girls to be an asssholes, and that they can beat anyone up, or punch someone just because they don't like the person or what they say, then you're going to cause more harm than good to them. And that's what those movies teach them, especially current franchises such as MCU ones.
And they also teach boys to be submissive to them.

You're saying kickass female characters are sexy, but in reality, if you were the one being beated up by one of those stickgirls, you'd crawl in some tight hole from shame, wouldn't you? Bed fetishism aside, that is.
And I'm glad I was kinda right when I said in my original post: "But do you know why men were so silent about stuff like these for so long? [...] because the female characters were usually attractive, so it felt like a recompense to some guys... I guess?"

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