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The toughest book you have read or tried to read


I tried to read Atlas Shrugged many years ago. Sorry Ayn.

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The Bible.

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not exactly light reading

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It was dull. I couldn't make it after like the first 5 pages or so. Zzzzzzz.

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Having the direction of a teacher, scholar, and pastor helps makes digesting it easier. There was a time most people couldn't read or write, let alone attempt to understand the Bible without other resources to turn towards.

Then again, there weren't that many widespread published books besides the Bible in the pre-literate days either, so the role of the pastor was very crucial to learning its contents.

~~/o/

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It sounds like you're describing the 'Dark Ages' when the interpretation and transcribing of the Bible was entrusted mainly to monks in monasteries. No possibility of human error or secret agendas, huh ?

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You know it, db: we humans are the essence of our own experiences. We write what we know.

SHORT VERSION:

Let's not forget about the language barrier too, translating from Hebrew to either Latin or Greek (the 3 holy languages) creating different meanings as the Bible travelled through the myriad of diverse cultures and lands it found its way into, filtering out much of the original context.

LONG VERSION: (1 minute read)

Since Christianity spread bit by bit, by the time it reached Northern Europe it had accumulated a lot of baggage. (E.g. if you look at religious holidays, almost all of them have previous, pagan versions). You can see traces of previous faiths in how basic Christian elements are conceptualized - God as a hostile force that must be constantly propitiated (to be pleased), for example, in areas that previously had deities with similar attitudes.

The mixing process has always been a fundamental part of religion, as it is with all aspects of culture for all but the most insular (isolated) society. People move around and take ideas and practices with them, introducing them gently or at sword-point. When you introduce a religion, it doesn't completely supplant whatever was there before, however you introduce it. When Christianity spread, people didn't entirely give up their practices and beliefs, but give them a Christian gloss (which also meant interpreting Christianity in part according to previously held beliefs).

Culture being a very local thing for most of history. During the middle ages, a particular culture would likely be shared only by a small region of a given country, with different cultures, languages and religious notions (i.e. "heresies" or "to choose") existing only tens of miles away even within the same nation. There were some pretty radically different notions of Christianity across Europe, even in areas supposedly unified by a common faith.

~~/o/

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This is why I finally became wise and realized there were too many translations. Which one was the true words? I purchased two Bibles translated directly from the original languages. The OT in Hebrew translated by a Jew (some Aramaic) and another complete one translated directly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

I never felt completely comfortable with the King James bible. Too many hands passed through to arrive at the KJ. When I began comparing the two direct translations with the KJ and the NKJ (today’s vernacular) I then understood why I couldn’t put my complete faith into the King James bibles. I once read the KJ version is anti-Semetic. If so, I’m happy I moved away from it.

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Edit = *
*(Updates: Dec. 10, 2019)

*To you say that the sin of Sodom refers to homosexuality is just as bad as an oversimplification as it is being in the wrong for being a crappy host. The city was destroyed for its inhospitality, cruelty and violence, and the overall collapse of social morality, leading to an end of the culture and its people instability and strife.

Thanks for being patient, ksp; it's a joy sharing these insights and exchanges. Please note that I approach this in a general, pragmatic way.

SHORT VERSION:

The basic tenets of any faith are always changing, whether we want them to or not. It can happen gradually, so we don't notice much in our lifetimes, or it can happen suddenly - but religions do inevitably change.

Adherents of every faith argue over the meaning of their chosen religious text, because language exists in such a way as to mean it can be misunderstood. Hence why Christians can claim Romans 1 (in which God gets angry at people painting birds and mind-controls them into becoming orgiastic mass murderers) and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (which is about not being a sucky host) justify their prejudice towards all gay people, despite the fact that just reading them can provide you with a completely different understanding of what they mean (like I did).

LONG VERSION: (2 minute read)

What many Christians regard as canonical scripture was cobbled together over centuries by committee and as Church Fathers (including men like Bishop Eusebius) debated the set of beliefs that would eventually become part of the orthodox confession of faith, (see "Nicene Creed").

Early Christian communities drafted statements of faith for themselves and affixed the names of various saints and figures from the earliest days of the Nazarene faith (what Jewish authorities called the early Christians) in a call to authority "My apostle can beat up your apostle!" These were copied and circulated around the Christian world. It was humans who knit together the various threads and practices into a coherent body of belief.

I find it difficult to treat the Bible as the literal word of God. It was followers of Christ and their descendants two to three hundred years later who promulgated the canonical literature.

Literal reading of the Bible is actually pretty modern - Christians did not originally read it that way, they read it all as being about Christ (typological) which can thus hardly be literal. For almost two thousand years, most Christians then used a fourfold approach (the Quadriga), of which literal meanings were present but needed to be considered alongside other ways of understanding a passage such as allegorical and typological readings.
It was pretty much inevitable that this would be the case as it grew out of an oral tradition not a written (literary) one. To be very literal you need to be very literate - to think like someone one from a strongly literary culture and see the written work as something that is 'fixed' and can be read as it is - that's only really something that developed with mass literacy. Late 19th early 20th century.
Most people who were not literate would relate to the Bible orally which was more fluid and allowed for questions and interactions with a speaker (most of which is now pretty much lost to us) and through pictures that were deeply symbolic, not actual representations of things.

Mark 12:29 says the same: "The Lord our God is one".
The word Trinity does not appear once in the Bible. And the concept of the Holy Trinity was only developed in the fourth and fifth centuries. Orthodox Christians still do not believe it.

The councils did not so much "create" the canon as they did "recognize" the canon. Many of the apocryphal gospels are clearly part of the Gnostic tradition (Thomas, for instance) and the early Church was trying to separate itself from the dualistic nature of most Gnostic writings. After all, Christians believe that the whole point of Christ's life was that God should bridge the gap between spiritual and physical to bring salvation and not treat the physical world as corrupt and irredeemable, likely created by a "lesser" god.

Revelations very nearly didn't make it into the Christian cannon at Nicaea as the events which it 'foretold' should have happened 200 years earlier. It was argued to be an allegory of the individual sinner's journey to Salvation. It was never to be taken literally.

As scripture, it remains something of an embarrassment. Greek scholars will tell you that, unlike the Gospel of John, the demotic Greek of Revelations is the product of an unlettered author. 1,200 years after Nicaea, Luther very nearly excluded it from his translation, saying "Christ is not here."

Here are some relevant scholarly facts that are worth your time:

* below is an understanding of many of the Conservative Christian viewpoint point.

https://www.michaeljkruger.com/the-complete-series-the-10-commandments-of-progressive-christianity/

~~/o/

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There is proof the events which occurred in the Old Testament to be factual.

“For thousands of years, the Old Testament has largely remained true to its original form.” To this day the books of the Old Testament remain canon.

Moses wrote the first 5 books...the Torah which was concurrent with the events.
“The Tablets as well as the entire Torah were written in Hebrew. The Torah was given 3,300 years ago and written down at that time. Way before then there were manuscripts written in Hebrew and studied in the tents of Shem and Eiver. The Jews have always studied every letter and shape of every letter as commanded to Moshe to write it at Sinai.” We must not dismiss the Dead Sea scrolls which were found in 1947. They concur with the ancient writers who penned the OT.

An interesting read: https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/old-testament

https://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

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What a kind and thoughtful reply, ksp. Your info is most appreciated and addressed some questions I had, especially the one behind the "word of the Lord" phrasing (Zondervan; stages 1 and 2). I see religion is very personal to each of us and am grateful that we could talk about it in a meaningful way. You made me feel comfortable which is why I shared the following above in the first place.

There have been a lot of godly people to ask questions about their faith and their relationship to God. The book of Psalms is an excellent example. By coming to terms with what one believes in, figuring out why and the reasons for it, their faith is that much more sincere and genuine instead of blindly following it just for the sake of doing so.

Sometimes, I wonder why does God allow all these differing interpretations to result in the form of mistranslations? Doesn't God want His word to be heard by all clearly? I honestly think it is done on purpose in order for us to come to our own conclusions, so we may grow and mature on our own, that we can care for ourselves and one another without having to be "spoon-fed" all the "right" answers.

Society is always changing and by letting the holy text be read so many different ways helps keep it relevant in an ever "worldly" culture while still providing a sense of continuity to past traditions and history, serving as an important benchmark.

This might help explain anti-Semitism concerns in the Bible:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/wrestling.html

Thanks again, ksp. (^_^)

~~/o/

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“Sometimes, I wonder why does God allow all these differing interpretations to result in the form of mistranslations? Doesn't God want His word to be heard by all clearly?“

Because we have *free will*. These differing interpretations are what left me devoid of meaning....which one is Truth? This led me to the two Bibles translated directly from the Hebrew (translated by a Jew), and Aramaic writings. I felt a sense of peace when I received them.

BTW, I don’t refer to myself as Christian....rather a Believer in Christ. I would dearly love for a Messianic Synagogue to open here where a reside. I attended one in Orlando for a short while. If you’ve never attended one you are truly missing something great. They practice all the customs and celebrate the feasts as Christ and His disciples did.

I have a gold necklace with a gold cross charm and the Star of David charm. My aunt inquired as to why I was wearing the Star of David as I’m not Jewish. I smiled then pointed to the Star, then to the Cross and stated “From the beginning to the Beginning. We are all sons and daughters of Abraham and washed in the Blood of Christ.

I have debated friends and relatives over which is Truth...KJ, NKJ, American Standard and a myriad of others. One of the worst IMO is the Apostate church with the Apostasy teaching.

In closing, the true translation of Commandment 6 is *not* “Thou shall not kill”. The Truth is “Thou shall not murder!” Big difference!

More words of Scripture which have been misconstrued....Luke 17:34
“There will be two *people*, NOT two men lying in a bed...” This Scripture has falsely been used to justify a certain lifestyle.

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Critique of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant. (Gave up.) I am now satisfied that my intellect is rather limited.

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A philosophy book for a college class. Just brutal trying to read and understand any of it.

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I once came across a line that read that philosophy is religion absent spiritually. It must not be as interesting without the latter. Who knows?

~~/o/

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I don't remember the name of the book. It was for a class called Environmental Ethics. It was a number of these famous philosophers and their views on the environment. All through a philosophical perspective. Awful reading.

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"It" by Stephen King. It's just far too long.

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have you seen the movie?

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Yes. The 2017 movie and the 1990 miniseries.

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Me too. I didn't get through the first attempt but I forced myself the second time when the new movie was coming out. It's a hard slog but well worth it for the good bits.

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I went to Law School and tried to read Cases.
God ! I would go cross-eyed and 15 minutes later I would still be staring at the same paragraph.
Made me feel like I was a real dumb-shit but I think it's really bad writing.

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sounds painful

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life ascending - the ten great inventions of evolution by nick lane.

i bought it years ago when i was reading a ton of science-oriented books. blind bought it based solely on the title.

it was just too technical for me, as i recall. it was just a cut or two above my comprehension level, & i ended up kicking it to the curb about 1/4 of the way through. it's boxed away with a billion other books collecting dust in my closet.

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hownos, I completely agree.
I still find it hard to believe that I actually hated a book, but I did hate Atlas Shrugged.

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a great door stopper

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Ayn Rand was not a good novelist.

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I agree

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[deleted]

The Gorky Park movie wasn't very good.

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