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freddie1768 (18)
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Also, I hope you realize that this entire thread was referring to the bigotry against homosexuals as "homophobia." Again, because "homophobia" has adopted a new and widely accepted meaning in society. Throwing fits because of this isn't going to change the facts, and acting like everyone else is stupid for using a word that YOU simply refuse to admit has evolved in meaning, and pretending that society has not adopted this widely accepted definition / understanding of "homophobia," is stupidity on your part. I don't care if you have a problem with the way the word "homophobia" has evolved in society. I do have a problem with you pretending like the word isn't widely accepted and used in the EXACT way that I was using it, simply because you think it shouldn't be. Just because you think it shouldn't have that particular meaning in today's society doesn't change the fact that it does, so stop pretending otherwise. It is ludicrous. Goodbye.
All you had to say was that "bigotry" is, technically speaking, a more appropriate word than "homophobia" when referring to prejudice against homosexuals (since it clearly means so much to you). NOT come at me as if my entire argument is flawed simply for using a term that, whether you like it or not, has been adopted to have the exact meaning in the way that I was using it. Especially being that, judging off of your other comments on this thread, you and I were on the same page.
You're crazy lol. I'm not making myself feel "better" about anything, I was literally just using terminology that is most recognized and applicable in society today. Nobody has a problem with using the term "homophobia" in the exact manner that I did, except for you.
I think the problem is that you are far too concerned about dated word meanings, and you don't know how to adapt and evolve along with society. You knew what I meant from the beginning, as ANY half-knowledgeable person would, and, once again, you simply chose to be a problematic know-it-all. What is even more baffling is that, judging off your own comments on this thread, you and I were on the same page regarding everything else that I said (save for the "homophobia terminology" that you, personally, cannot accept, even as society has).
The meaning of "homophobia" has adapted in society, and a new meaning has been widely adopted.
"Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy."
Get over it.
Also, fuck you for using the R word. Get a life, asshole.
Why do you feel the need to invalidate an important and very real argument that I am making here, and on a stupid basis?
Clearly, you are one of the few people who still take the word "homophobia" as having the literal definition meaning the "fear" of homosexuals.
In this instance, I am using "homophobia" the way the MAJORITY of society does today. Turning lesbians into nothing more than sex objects but then hating homosexual women in real life because people despise homosexuality and deem it as "disgusting" is, yes, what society today would call "homophobic."
You are free to have your own opinions on the "accuracy" of that word, but don't act like I am an idiot for using a term in a manner that the VAST majority of society recognizes as valid today. Acting like I am stupid or that my argument doesn't make sense simply because YOU don't agree with the "evolved" and widely accepted version of this word makes YOU, in fact, look like the "idiot." Not me.
Sorry that the word "homophobia" has come to have the simultaneous meaning of "bigotry against homosexuals" in today's society, but that is not my fault. In this case, you knew exactly what I meant, so pretending like you think that my argument "doesn't make sense" just because I am using a word that has evolved in a way that you personally disapprove of is ignorance on your own part. Not mine. Maybe it doesn't make sense that the word "homophobia," originally meaning fear ("phobia") of homosexuals ("homo"), has adapted the meaning of "bigotry against homosexuals," but I don't make the fricking rules. As someone already told you here, the definition of "homophobia" is literally listed now as "dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people." That is a widely adapted concept of what "homophobia" is today.
By trying to make ME look stupid just because I am using a term that, whether the evolution of it makes sense or not, DOES make sense to society in today's context, you are just making yourself look ignorant and unnecessarily problematic.
Sure, take every use of "homophobia" in my previous argument and replace it with "bigotry against homosexuals" if that makes you happy. I promise you, most people are knowledgeable enough to grasp the same meaning regardless. But in today's society, "homophobia" WOULD be a more common and expected word in this context, whether you like or agree with that or not.
YES. As another soul who has lived through the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, I can testify that everything you have said is ABSOLUTELY true and correct, @Beagle200.
Adding onto this-- Indeed, gay male porn is the most popular porn category for straight women, who often are sickened by the thought of intimacy between two women.
And indeed, the homophobic men who watch "fake" lesbian porn are often the same ones who are disgusted and enraged by actual gay women-- who hate "gross and disgusting dykes" in real life!
Nah, you are confusing the mindsets of some homophobic straight boys with the mindset of society.
I lived through the 80s, as well as the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The prevailing mindset was "Homosexuals = gross." Even hypocritical men who eventually began watching "fake" lesbian porn deemed homosexual women as sick and immoral "queers."
In fact, lets not forget the fact that gay women and gay men alike were deemed and shunned as "disgusting queers" by the VAST majority of society at the time.
Really, given the time period, the homophobic line in the movie isn't shocking or out of place at all. At the time, it was simply expected.
(My own father happens to be a shameless homophobe who is the first to say "Eww that is sick, I'm gonna puke" when we are watching a movie and two women kiss. My grandma is nauseated at the very mention of two women behaving intimately or romantically together. Some homophobes get off to gay male porn or lesbian porn (LGBT people are also deeply fetishized and dehumanized while simultaneously creating a "gag" reflex in society), but they don't tolerate these people anymore in actuality. Sadly, this is just the way homophobes are). Just go look up the Youtube comments for the song "Girl Crush" by Little Big Town. The song was completely hated and boycotted when people mistook it as a "lesbian song," even though it was actually about a heterosexual woman. And yet, it got marked as a "disgusting gay song." That was 2014.
Also, like someone else said here, homophobic guys who jack off to lesbian porn still have the response of "ew a filthy d*ke" when seeing a lesbian in a normal or romantic context. Liking lesbian porn has nothing to do with tolerating homosexual women, and male consumption of lesbian porn actually perpetuates negative stereotypes and objectification of gay women.
When a homophobe jacks off to the fake lesbian porn that is made for male consumption, the context is purely: "These 2 porn stars are kissing to turn on a man who will soon enter the scene and have sex with both of the women." But when the same homophobe then sees two women kiss in a movie or setting where the context is NOT purely "hot heterosexual women performing for a male audience," their reaction is "EW gay," just as their reaction would be if it were 2 men. There is the same "ick factor" of seeing any same-sex couple to a hetero-normative society. This relates to how straight women love and fetishize gay men when it is their "ideal" context of gay men, but absolutely hate lesbians because they are "gross." Indeed, gay male porn is the most popular porn category for straight women, who often are sickened by the thought of intimacy between two women.
Society, of course, is not going to admit to this blatant hypocrisy, so unfortunately lesbians get blasted with both the same homophobia you see being directed at gay men, ON TOP of homophobia via sexual exploitation and abuse.
So it is very fair what someone else here said regarding all of this: Having lived through the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s myself, I, as well as millions of others, can testify that the same stigmas and homophobia DID exist and still DO exist toward gay women and gay men; gay women's experiences are simply undermined because society centers its attention toward men. Gay women were (and still ARE) just as stigmatized and hated as gay men... Yes, even by the dehumanizing homophobes who watch lesbian porn and then think, say, and do the worst things to homosexual women imaginable.
- and filthy queers," and they had to hide their sexuality for their own safety and reputation. I will emphasize again, gay women were NOT anymore tolerated than gay men. If anything, they suffered double in that they faced traditional homophobia, homophobia in the form of sexual abuse, and had their struggles ignored for so long (Also don't forget that sexism was also much more prevalent in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Society was far less willing to listen to a group of "queer" women advocating for "equal rights" than they were to listen to a group of homosexual men advocating for the same thing).
Lesbians were just as hated and rejected as gay men were during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but unfortunately lesbians had a harder time than gay men when it came to getting society to recognize the abuse they were constantly experiencing (AGAIN, because society will listen to homosexual men saying "We want change" MUCH sooner and easier than they will listen to a group of homosexual women saying the same thing.
Thus, it eventually became better recognized that lesbians were facing the same homophobia and intolerance as gay men, but that their abuse had simply been ignored because they were women. And, thus, "GLBT" was then changed to "LGBT." To finally give acknowledgment to the disproportionate and accepted abuse that lesbians were facing at the time.
Gibson's comment regarding homosexuals wasn't anything out of the ordinary at the time-- it was expected. It's nothing out of the ordinary for homophobes to say about lesbians or gay men today, either. It just wouldn't be put into a movie nowadays.
No hun... I can't blame you for not knowing this since you weren't around at the time, but lesbians were JUST as "disgusting" and stigmatized as gay men were during this era. We were just as unaccepting of lesbians as we were of gay men back then. And lesbians were JUST as "singled out" as targets of homophobic ire as gay men were. I'm assuming you are less aware of this simply because a male dominated society will always prioritize male issues over female ones. That does not mean that homophobia and abuse toward gay women was any less prevalent than it was toward gay men in society, because it WAS just as prevalent (I lived through it!), and people always "minded" lesbians just as much. Also, if you haven't noticed the jokes, stigmas, and homophobia against lesbians during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, look harder. It was ever-prevalent in media, in the default mindset, in society as a whole. As someone else mentioned, Elton John came out as bisexual in 1976 and as gay in 1988, and his success and popularity was hardly affected. Ellen Degeneres, however, came out in 1997, and she immediately lost her career. She was hated by society and labeled as a "filthy queer." Despite her fame before coming out, she was struggling to find ANY work for a very long time after this. This in itself shows the struggles that gay women were facing during these times, and such treatment was regularly ignored and seen as "normal." Gay women faced challenges that even gay men were not-- while gay men and gay women were facing the same stigma, hatred, homophobia, and rejection from society, gay women also had the oppression of their issues being more widely ignored than the very same issues that their gay brothers were experiencing... because they were women. (These times were also considerably more sexist and prejudice toward women).
If you were a homosexual, you hid it. Getting outed as a gay man or a gay woman meant losing your career, possibly being disowned by your family, and being rejected by society. There is a reason that gay women were fired after getting outed, would lose child custody rights after getting outed, would be ridiculed and shunned by society for getting outed.
I recommend watching the film "Boys Don't Cry." It depicts the true, tragic story of Brandon Teena, a transgender man born in 1972, who faces endless homophobia in America because of his identity. He is constantly being threatened, beaten, and abused by hateful homophobes when people incorrectly perceive him as a "f*cking dyke," and he is shunned by society because society takes him as a lesbian. Tragically, the film ends with some of his "friends" realizing that he is, in fact, biologically a female who is in a relationship with another female. This evokes disgust, outrage, and hatred in Brandon's "friends," and in a horrific and unthinkable scene, they brutally and repeatedly rape him before murdering him. This is what lesbian women (and gay men and trans people) were dealing with during this time. These horrible, prejudice views still exist today among homophobic bigots, of course, but the fact is that in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, lesbians were deemed "disgusting and -
Lesbians were just as hated, mocked, and rejected by society as gay men were.
Lets not forget the fact that gay women and gay men were deemed as "disgusting queers" by the vast majority of society at the time. Really, given the time period, the homophobic line in the movie isn't shocking at all. It is expected, if nothing else, and anyone else who lived through these times can easily testify to this.
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