The most nauseating part of Gojira. - Gojira (2004) Discussion

[–] rudykawa 14 years ago

It doesn't change the fact that a-bombs throwed against civilians (and not soldiers) were a war crime. Just like the ones you mentioned. And japanese were condemned by those war crimes.
But US government writes the history. So the a-bombs weren't war crime. And nobody was condemned.

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[–] nickm2 14 years ago

rudy you are WRONG: The Bombs were NOT war crimes-especially since they ended a LONG BLOODY COSTLY War; in any case, the US Government per se doesn't write 'the history';

NM

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[–] BuddyLove63 14 years ago

The Bombs were NOT war crimes-especially since they ended a LONG BLOODY COSTLY War

Right, nickm2

If the A-Bombs were 'war crimes' then they were the most worthy and much needed war crimes in history. They ENDED the Pacific War and stopped perhaps over a million people from being killed.

Over 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the 'conventional' battles for Okinawa just before the A-Bombs were dropped and that wasn't even the Japanese mainland. Goodness knows how many Japanese civilians would have died (not to mention soldiers from both sides) had they invaded the Japanese mainland.

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[–] nickm2 14 years ago

yeah Dave, it needs to be remembered that Even in Mid 1945 there were still hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers(US, British Commonwealth, ANZAC, Chinese) where still fighting Japanese troops throughout Southeast Asia, China & part of the Solomons; there were still hundreds of thousands of Western POWs & Detainees in the hands of the Japanese in truly MISERABLE conditions and tens of millions of Chinese & other Asians under direct control of the Japanese military under even MORE miserable conditions--another learned fellow who posts here at IMDB said that tens of thousands of people were still dying every week due to Japanese mistreatment or brutality or straight up fighting right up until the time they FINALLY surrendered;

NM

PS: In spite of all that I am still quite the fan of the "Big-G";

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[–] BuddyLove63 14 years ago

yeah Dave, it needs to be remembered that Even in Mid 1945 there were still hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers(US, British Commonwealth, ANZAC, Chinese) where still fighting Japanese troops throughout Southeast Asia, China & part of the Solomons;

There sure were. I already mentioned the bloody battle of Okinawa (April to June 1944). That was an indicator of what an invasion of the Japanese mainland might be like. Over 100,000 civilians dead in the fighting for just an island.

By the way my grandfather was still in the British army fighting the Japanese in Burma by 1945. I'm sure he and his regiment would have been sent to Japan to take part in an invasion of the Japanese mainland had the A-Bombs not been dropped.

there were still hundreds of thousands of Western POWs & Detainees in the hands of the Japanese in truly MISERABLE conditions and tens of millions of Chinese & other Asians under direct control of the Japanese military under even MORE miserable conditions--another learned fellow who posts here at IMDB said that tens of thousands of people were still dying every week due to Japanese mistreatment or brutality or straight up fighting right up until the time they FINALLY surrendered;

Yes that is very very true. The Japanese still held vast areas of populated territory at the time of their surrender and were still treating people very badly, both through neglect and through deliberate brutality.

This is why the self pitying attitude of Gojira is hard to stomach.

NM

PS: In spite of all that I am still quite the fan of the "Big-G";

I'm not. I prefer The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms (which Gojira ripped off in many ways). I find the pacing of Gojira very slow (especially in the mid portion of the film) even though it starts off alright and there is only so much man-in-a-rubber-suit trashing model buildings I can take. The action is so repetative and obviously Gojira has no personality to speak of. The first reveal of Gojira lacks build up and suspense (unlike,say, the far far superior fist reveal of King Kong), the editing is choppy, the dialogue unmemorable (I can't recal even one line and I watched it only the other week). I'm trully struggling to even point to just one iconic scene or sequence.

I think the idea of Gojira was good and Gojira is a good 'character' to use again and again in sequels etc but as a story and as an execution of a story I really don't think the original Gojira is all that great.

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[–] nickm2 14 years ago

"I'm not. I prefer The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms (which Gojira ripped off in many ways). I find the pacing of Gojira very slow (especially in the mid portion of the film) even though it starts off alright and there is only so much man-in-a-rubber-suit trashing model buildings I can take."

Fair enough; Heard Honda wanted to do 'stop motion' but barely had any time & settled with the suit mation process...in any case if it wasn't for Gojira we would never had the opportunity to hear the compositions of Akira Ifukube...kind of like Bernard Herrmann's scoring the Schneer/Harryhausen films of the 50s & 60s the music really added a dimension to a 'B-Movie.

NM

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[–] BuddyLove63 14 years ago

It doesn't change the fact that a-bombs throwed against civilians (and not soldiers) were a war crime.

That's not my point. My point is that the Japanese suffering with the A-Bombs was MINISCULE when compared to the death and desctruction the JAPANESE THEMSELVES meeted out in Asia during the preceeding decade. Over ten million Chinese alone died at the hands of the Japanese.

Gojira wallows too much in Japanese self pity with the A-bombs analogy and it's damned nauseating when it was made just a few short years after the whirlwind of havok and destruction the Japanese themselves caused.

The prevailing theme of Gojira is "poor us again. Didn't we suffer enough with the A-Bombs?". Well no actually you didn't suffer as much as what your lot did to the Chinese etc.

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[–] rudykawa 14 years ago

It looks like US does write history. And trick everybody.

Japan was ready to give up after Germany fell. It wouldn't last 100 years and kill 300 billion people like US says.
And they were even more into it after the FIRST bomb. But there wasn't even any time and the SECOND bomb was dropped.

I don't know about you guys.
But making CHILDREN be born deformed, housewives dying with painful cancers caused by radiation, and oldmen evaporating without letting a single bone to be buried is a war crime.
War is government and soldier's business. Bombing civilian area is a war crime.
Again. A CIVILIAN area. Farmers, children, teachers, peaceful families, etc.

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[–] BuddyLove63 14 years ago

It looks like US does write history. And trick everybody.

You think the US wrote the history of the Rape of Nanking and the subsequent decade of Japanese brutality in China which killed over 10 million people?

Japan was ready to give up after Germany fell.

Germany began to fall in March 1945 and finally by early May.

The Battle of Okinawa lasted from April through to early June. It was a bitter bloody battle with no sign of the Japanese just giving up. Over 100,000 Japanese civilians died and almost the same number of Japanese troops.

It wouldn't last 100 years and kill 300 billion people like US says.

The US doesn't say that.

The US says it might have lasted into 1946 and killed another one million people. The invasion of Germany claimed 1.5 million. Why would an invasion of Japan be any less bloody? We already have Okinawa as an example. Over 200,000 dead fighting for just a small island. More civilians died at Okinawa than at either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

And they were even more into it after the FIRST bomb. But there wasn't even any time and the SECOND bomb was dropped.

There was THREE whole days and still no surrender by Japan. Nor any hint of it. It even took them SIX days after Nagasaki to finally surrender.

I don't know about you guys.
But making CHILDREN be born deformed, housewives dying with painful cancers caused by radiation, and oldmen evaporating without letting a single bone to be buried is a war crime.

What about pregnant Chinese women being slit open by bayonet? What about POWs being slowly starved to death and mistreated all the way through to starvation in the most deliberately cruel ways? What about torture and people forced to have to watch their friends being beheaded? Etc etc.

That's what the Japanese were doing for YEARS from the late 1930s up to the end of the war.

War is government and soldier's business. Bombing civilian area is a war crime.

So what about when Japanese soldiers went rampaging through CIVILIAN towns and cities killing and butchering MILLIONS of civilians? What was that for? Did it end the killings or the war? No.

The A-Bombs did though. In case you didn't notice, after the Nagasaki bombing the Americans didn't have to take any more lives in a war against Japan. The A-Bombs caused the war to end. Oh and they also prevented World War Three from happening.

At least the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasakin didn't die in vain. Their deaths meant that MILLIONS lived. Can you think of any other "war crime" that had a better outcome and result? I can't.

Again. A CIVILIAN area. Farmers, children, teachers, peaceful families,

You think the Japanese civilians suffered more at the hands of the Americans than the Chinese civilians suffered at the hands of the Japanese during the preceeding decade? How about the other people of South East Asia that the Japanese conquered, brutilised and subjugated?

You must be Japanese. I hear they don't teach that they did anything wrong in WW2 over there.

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[–] rudykawa 14 years ago

I'm not saying Japan didn't do war crimes.
I just pointed out that the atomic bomb was also a war crime. Which americans usually are proud of. And doesn't learn the real deal in school either.
And usually likes to take tokens with them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

I'm sorry but if one person that has my nationality (and I'm not japanese, I'm brazilian) kills an innocent man, why should I have to suffer?
The people that got killed and deformed didn't had anything to do with the criminals that invaded china and korea. Or do you think that elders with 90years or children that wasn't even born had to be judged by other's crimes?
One crime doesn't clean another.

Here in Brazil, at least, we learn about the massacre that Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay made against Paraguay. We dizimated more than 70% of the men from that country. We do not disguise it as saying that Paraguay had mass destructive weapons or that they were going to initiate a war that would kill 1 million people.
It was a crime. Nothing more.

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[–] nickm2 14 years ago

See the pertinent parts of the previous post:

Even in Mid 1945 there were still hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers(US, British Commonwealth, ANZAC, Chinese) where still fighting Japanese troops throughout Southeast Asia, China & part of the Solomons; there were still hundreds of thousands of Western POWs & Detainees in the hands of the Japanese in truly MISERABLE conditions and tens of millions of Chinese & other Asians under direct control of the Japanese military under even MORE miserable conditions--another learned fellow who posts here at IMDB said that tens of thousands of people were still dying every week due to Japanese mistreatment or brutality or straight up fighting right up until the time they FINALLY surrendered;

NM

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[–] twilightsol4 11 years ago

Anytime hundreds of civilians die in a war its a war crime. Doesn't matter if the country in question committed atrocities. A War crime is war crime. If you dont think our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagaski was a war crime you are a moron. It may have ended the war and stopped the invasion of Japan But it was still a war crime.

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[–] Brooklyn51 11 years ago

I'm a veteran of the US Air Force and familiar with the Laws of Armed Conflict. Hiroshima and Nagaski were strategic military targets, that's why they were chosen for the bombings. The fire bombings of Tokyo are closer to a war crime, but even then the targets were airfields. Civilian casualties are an unfortunate and unavoidable side effect of bombing campaigns, no matter the country, but as long as civilians/non-combatants are not purposefully targeted and the agents used are not chemical/biological it is not in violation of LOAC.

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[–] Brooklyn51 11 years ago

The Japanese surrender had less to do with the atomic bomb and more to do with the fact Russia declared war on them. That's when they knew they were really, really in for it.

As for the point of the thread, yes the Japanese were absolutely barbaric during the second world war. Accounts of the Bataan death march are sickening, just as an example. But Japan is the only nation to ever feel the effects of atomic warfare. That gives them a unique perspective and makes for a powerful narrative. A bit heavy handed? I personally don't think so, but I see how it could be viewed as such.

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[–] helderuto 10 years ago

America deserved the attack to the World Trade Center

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[–] BuddyLove63 10 years ago

America deserved the attack to the World Trade Center

You sir, are an idiot. Nobody deserved that.

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[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] helderuto 10 years ago

You sir, are an idiot. Nobody deserved that.

You sir, are a hypocrite.

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[–] nickm2 10 years ago

Unlikely; In any case,you keep using that word-I don't think it means what you think it does.

Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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[–] BuddyLove63 10 years ago

You sir, are a hypocrite.

Why? 9/11 didn't save lives. It ended up leading to many more lives being taken in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. 9/11 was the catalyst for a disaster. 9/11 didn't end a war.

The A-bombs SAVED lives. They ended WW2 and WW3 was prevented because it was also a warning shot for the USSR.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

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[–] helderuto 10 years ago

The A-bombs SAVED lives.

You also believe in the Manifest Destiny bullcrap?

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[–] BuddyLove63 10 years ago

You also believe in the Manifest Destiny bullcrap?

I'm not American so no I don't believe in it. But what has that got to do with the FACT that the A-bombs saved more lives than they took?

Once the A-bombs were dropped..............

1. An invasion of Japan was no longer necessary. Lives were saved.
2. A conventional bombing campaign against Japan was no longer necessary. Lives were saved.
3. An ongoing blockade leading to starving Japanese people was no longer necessary. Lives were saved.
4. People in Japan's overseas occupied territories from China down through South East Asia were no longer being killed and brutalised by them. Lives were saved.
5. WW3 was prevented. Lives were saved.

Thank you and goodnight.

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[–] helderuto 10 years ago

Hypocrites like you always play the "it saved lives" card to justify the genocide of innocent civilians. The A-bomb saved lives? Then why didn't USA simply nuke Korea, Vietnam and Iraq? You hypocrite.

And yes, 9/11 was a well deserved KARMA.

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[–] nickm2 10 years ago

You keep using those words...I don't think they means what you think they do.

And if 9/11 is Karma to the US, well what the US did to the Moors for years is probably Karmic punishment to the moors & their 800 years of hegemony...

Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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[–] BuddyLove63 10 years ago

Hypocrites like you always play the "it saved lives" card to justify the genocide of innocent civilians.

It did save lives. This is beyond dispute.

The A-bomb saved lives? Then why didn't USA simply nuke Korea, Vietnam and Iraq? You hypocrite.

Because they knew what the bombs could do by then. This is the whole point you stupid idiot. If the A-bombs were not dropped on Japan then bigger and more powerful ones may have been dropped in later years. Don't you get it? The results of the A-bombs were so scary that bigger and better ones have never been dropped since.

Doh! Wakey wakey.

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[–] protocolglide 12 years ago

Japan was given the opportunity to surrender, not once, but twice!!

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

Those who call the droppping of the atomic bombs to end a war started by Japan at Pearl Harbor a "war crime" sadly reveal that they no absolutely nothing about actual history and are being too pre-conditioned to accept a load of propaganda from people who want to always look for an excuse to call America evil.

We had already engaged in conventional bombings of Tokyo and other Japanese cities that killed MORE than were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those bombings would have continued without the A-bombs and more would have died as a consequence. Then, let's factor in the costs of an American invasion of Japan which would have been bloody and more devastating, and also factor in the ongoing suffering of American POW's kept in inhumane conditions in violation of the Geneva Convention. The notion that to avoid being stigmitized as "war criminals" that America had to avoid minimizing its own casualties to end the war is so ludicrous that it does become nauseating to hear it argued as an article of faith among some people.

And sadly, this obsession with the Atomic bomb legacy is for me the greatest drawback to the whole concept of Godzilla because too often it comes across to this American like Japan's way of trying to whitewash its own responsibility for why an atomic bomb was dropped on them. That was the fault of THEIR government for having become the equal of Hitler's in terms of aggressive expansionist barbarism as personified by the Rape of Nanking and their brutal subjugation of the Philippines, not to mention decades of brutalization in Korea and then capped off with the Bataan Death March and their barbaric treatment of American prisoners that rivaled the conduct of the Germans in concentration camps. That conduct is what made the Atomic bomb droppings necessary yet for some reason Toho kaiju films, much as I enjoy them as grand entertainment, like to carry this false undercurrent of Japan as a peaceful society with a peaceful tradition which represents an attempt to escape their own responsibility for their own actions. And ultimately it's because that sermonizing is scaled back a bit in the US cut that I always watch the US cut instead of the original which has a tendency to sink under the weight of its own pretentiousness.

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[–] Big G-2 13 years ago

Godzilla was embodiment of the atomic bomb - its power and destruction it can unleash, like a huge frightful monster come to life and ready to destroy anything in its path. This was not necessarily meant to be a reaction to what happened at Hiroshima, but rather the devastation this weapon can cause ANYWHERE! Plus, you shouldn’t forget the Lucky Dragon incident which was a major factor for this film. The Japanese fishing boat, the Lucky Dragon, was near an atomic bomb testing site and unfortunately, many of the fisherman became sick and died of radiation poisoning (did not GODZILLA have scenes like that?).

And one should not conclude that this was Toho’s efforts in trying to whitewash what happened during the war. What is lost in the argument and if anyone recalls, director Ishiro Honda was himself a pacifist and was opposed to Japan’s involvement in the war. His good friend, Akira Kurosawa, was the same. Unfortunately, Honda was drafted and eventually became a POW (Kurosawa’s father had enough influence keep his son from fighting in the war). Both were neither right-wing nationalists or apologists and would later do films on how foolhardy those beliefs that got Japan into a lot of trouble were (Kurosawa with the excellent NO REGRETS FOR OUR YOUTH, and Honda with ATRAGON).

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything my friends Eric and Big G have said, and outward appearances aside there is really no contradiction between their statements.

I share Eric's view on the war. There's a good maxim to keep in mind: if you don't want to suffer the consequences of a war, don't start one. An earlier poster said that innocents shouldn't suffer for the crimes of others, which sounds good and works well in individual circumstances. But in war such a concept is meaningless. Besides, the Japanese public had no qualms about the atrocities against other nations and their millions committed by their military and government. For them, the war was bad only when they began to suffer. Of course the atomic bombings were terrible. So was everything else in World War II. It took the suffering of the Japanese people to help persuade some of its leaders to finally surrender, following Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It's also telling that even today, 66 years after the war ended, most Japanese still refuse to acknowledge the extent (or, in some cases, even the existence) of their country's own vast war crimes. I remember reading an interview in Newseek back on the 50th aniversary of Hiroshima in 1995, a survivor who roundly damned the US for dropping the bomb. But when the reporter asked her about Nanking, Bataan and the countless other Japanese atrocities, she screamed, "Were you there? Can you prove it?" Apparently the only history people like this care about is what affected them personally. Everything else not only doesn't matter, it's all lies. Unlike the Germans, who fully acknowledged their national war guilt and made amends (even if many Germans of that generation privately continued to look back with wistful approval on the Nazis' conquests), the Japanese have never done so, only making oblique apologies that never get to the nub or truth of the issues at hand.

This said, Big G makes equally valid points about the Lucky Dragon and other incidents that properly riled Japanese (and other Pacific islanders) over H-bomb tests in their area in the 1950s. And I agree with him (and disagree with Eric) that the Japanese kaiju eiga are not anti-American statements as such...though clearly aspects can be uncomfortable for Americans. Nor was there any indication that Honda or any of the others were anti-American, in their person or in their work. Godzilla (the monster) was meant to be a physical embodiment of a nuclear explosion, a slow-motion, living hydrogen bomb in his destructive effects. The film was an anti-nuclear statement, a pacifist one if you will, but not anti-American. (Mothra was the only such film that seemed to me to be more overtly anti-American, with its villain coming from a ham-handed powerful western country called "Rolisica".)

As to the original Japanese films vs. the Americanized versions, I always prefer the originals (except maybe for Rodan). But my preference for the real Toho films is not, I assure you, a by-product of any latent anti-Americanism!

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

I'd probably modify my remarks hob to the extent that it's the aura of "Japan as victim" that I think stands out for me, and perhaps I subconsciously extend this to anti-American on the grounds of backtracking to the notion of "Japan as victim" based on wartime experience that by default can at times make Godzilla, another metaphor for atomic destruction a stand-in in the eyes of some for the deliverer of atomic destruction which in 1954 would have meant America to some Japanese. I will concede it's not a dominant theme if it gets to that extent, only at best a subtle one with the more objectionable "Japan as victim" attitude that we're both in agreement on, more prevalent.

I too BTW tend to prefer Japanese versions subtitled for kaiju films except for those that tend to strengthen themselves for the American market. In that respect, I like seeing Raymond Burr with his Perry Mason persona already in place lending a greater air of credibility to the story than if some regular B-movie monster performer (like John Agar as the commentary track suggested) had been chosen for the effort. I think what's often perhaps underestimated about the impact of "Godzilla" in America initially is that a good many people probably first saw it only *after* Raymond Burr became a major TV star in America and thus it was a lot easier to connect with.

I would also rate the original AIP English version of "Gamera The Invincible" as superior and I was not happy Shout! did not make that available for DVD (thankfully I had the widescreen VHS release transferred to DVD).

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

I completely agree with your disgust (my word) at the Japan-as-victim mentality that still so infects much of that nation's thinking, and inhibits self-reflection and facing the truth. How much of this leaches into kaiju eiga (or other films) is another matter.

Interesting how the losers in so many wars, usually ones who fought for something less than noble, turn around and portray themselves as victims, and the victors as marauding conquerors without humanity or shame. An excellent example is the American South, much of which still has not gotten over the Civil War. Many southerners continue to insist on the fantasy/lie that this was a war for states' rights, the noble landed gentry, and a genteel way of life, when in reality it was a war for slavery, human barbarism, ignorance and continued class domination of the economy, aside from the fact that it was an act of treason against the legitimate government of the nation. The postwar propaganda that gradually insinuated itself through our culture in the decades after the war -- bolstered by such false, indeed outrageous, examples as The Birth of a Nation and Gone With the Wind -- glorifying slavery (or at least portraying it as benevolent and welcomed by the slaves themselves), the Klan, treason and so on, solidified this warped view. Despite the turn away from this (literally) white-washed mendacity toward historical truth over the past few decades, many continue to cling to and propagate this false and disreputable image.

The Japanese are little different, and of course the Soviets were pretty much the same as well, and we still see elements of such defensive, victimized self-portrayals today, including even in Germany, France and other nations where totaltitarianism or evil philosophies once held sway.

Gadzooks! (Which I understand was Toho's alternate "international" title for Gojira.) Let's not politicize this site any more than necessary! Anyway, I like both Gojira and Godzilla, King of the Monsters, though I much prefer the former. You may be right that most people saw GKOTM only after Raymond Burr "became" Perry Mason, but it was released in America in 1956, a year and a half before PM went on the air.

PS: Did you know that Burr went to the Perry Mason auditions looking to win the part of loser D.A. Hamilton Burger? But Earle Stanley Gardner, who was assisting in the casting of the show, took one look at Burr and (shades of Zero Mostel in The Producers) basically yelled out, "That's our Mason!" To the best of my knowledge, Terry O. Morse, upon seeing Burr the year before, did not shout out, "That's our Steve Martin!"

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[–] Big G-2 13 years ago

The postwar propaganda that gradually insinuated itself through our culture in the decades after the war -- bolstered by such false, indeed outrageous, examples as The Birth of a Nation and Gone With the Wind -- glorifying slavery (or at least portraying it as benevolent and welcomed by the slaves themselves), the Klan, treason and so on, solidified this warped view. Despite the turn away from this (literally) white-washed mendacity toward historical truth over the past few decades, many continue to cling to and propagate this false and disreputable image.

Sorry to bring back politics into this matter but Hobnob, you made a great point. And frankly, if you look at the history of Hollywood films, it seems that for decades they had this strange sympathetic emphasis on the old Confederacy. On THE UNDEFEATED from 1969 with John Wayne and Rock Hudson, we are supposedly made to feel for the Southerners and their just lost war, lost cause, etc, (and are about to flee for Mexico!). Never mind the injustice they inflected on a race of people, which was totally ignored but because they fought "gallantly" but lost and thus are deserving of our sympathies. I always felt that it was not until ROOTS came along, that Hollywood finally did show the ugly realities.

Having said that, we should indeed go back to GODZILLA! And if I paid a little more attention, I would have realized that TCM showed it on Sat. Oct. 29th. I caught the very end of it, and afterwards Ben Mankiewiez giving us some info we G-fans already know about (but he did mention the upcoming G-film that will be in production).

PS: Did you know that Burr went to the Perry Mason auditions looking to win the part of loser D.A. Hamilton Burger? But Earle Stanley Gardner, who was assisting in the casting of the show, took one look at Burr and (shades of Zero Mostel in The Producers) basically yelled out, "That's our Mason!"

I have a 50th anniversary edition of PERRY MASON, and that one features William Hopper trying out for the part of Mason! It was very interesting to say the least. I wonder of Burr and Hopper ever had a Godzilla-Ymir discussion?

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

Thanks, Big-G. On the same (correct) page as usual!

I missed Mankiewicz's intro to GKOTM on TCM today but saw the film from about 15 minutes in, plus his closing remarks. He repeated the story that Burr filmed his inserts in one day. This has long been discredited (including on the commentary track of the Classic Media disc of the film, where Terry Morse, Jr., who was present for some of the filming of those US version scenes, debunked it as well; Burr actually worked four or five days). But this is hardly the first time that the "researchers" at TCM got something wrong.

Still, it was telling that Mankiewicz spent most of his time at the end talking about the dreadful and moronic 1998 US movie, and then the latest remake. As you well know, there was a lot more, and more interesting, to say about Gojira/Godzilla King of the Monsters, and their more immediate Godzilla successors. Again, typical of the shallowness and ignorance of most of the people who work behind the scenes at TCM and know little about their subject.

William Hopper was a lousy, stiff actor. If he had been cast as Mason the show would have been cancelled after one season.

Maybe he and Ray compared Godzilla to The Deadly Mantis.

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[–] Big G-2 13 years ago

I have more than a few DVDs (and VHS’s) that I can be my own TCM! But yeah, I’ve heard those stories that somehow have become kaiju urban legends that Burr only shot his scenes in one day, which was not true (several years ago, I had a chance to visit the place where they shot the American footage for GODZILLA. It was actually quite small and is now an elementary school, but does have a commemorative plaque indicating that is where they filmed the movie. Terry Morse, Jr. was on hand for that dedication).

But despite the inaccuracies by TCM, I thought it was still cool that they showed GODZILLA (as we both know, they rarely played any kaiju in the past. Only in the last two or three years have they finally opened up those gates).

William Hopper was a lousy, stiff actor. If he had been cast as Mason the show would have been cancelled after one season.

Hey, I’m part of the Bill Hopper chowder and marching society! Just kidding! But in looking at those test scenes, Hopper clearly did not have the range Raymond Burr did and the producers of PM were wise in their choice (and I understand Robert Downey Jr. now wants to tackle that role in a feature length movie. But for me, Burr will always remain the definitive Mason!).

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

Oh my God! We're buying a new house in part because my wife insists (correctly) that I need space (i.e., a full basement) for my DVDs and VHSs! No, I'm not kidding. When everything is finally de-boxed and properly organized and stored, I hesitate to guess how many movies I'll have...but enough to at least give TCM a run for its money. Not to mention my information is much more accurate.

I still can't understand why they haven't yet aired Gojira, the original, on their TCM Import program Sunday night. It's been available for five years now at least, and given the rave reviews it received, it seems an obvious choice. Maybe after the Criterion disc comes out.

I think I've told you before that each summer I run a classic movie night at this club I belong to, 10 or 11 Thursdays each year. I've been doing this since 2002 and had my biggest season yet this past summer. It's fun, but people are always asking me if I rent these movies, are they mine, or what, and they're impressed (not necessarily favorably!) when I say, no, they're all mine -- mine, do you hear me, mine!!! So I hope by next year to have a complete, alphabetized list (my records currently are complete but disorganized) that can answer what, and how many, I have. Here too, my corporate-trained wife finally informed me she's setting up some template for my future computerized records on this info. It'll be a few months yet but when I get it done, well, I hope I have enough gigabytes or whatever to hold the data.

One day last week TCM ran some 1930s second features, including Ronald Reagan's first film, Love is on the Air (1937). It was only as the movie ended that I looked it up on IMDb and found that Wm. Hopper was in the cast, but I hadn't recognized him. Fortunately, in ten minutes he was the star of the next film, so I got a good look at him, from the same year. It's a shock to see him with dark hair, but I have to say he was a very limited actor even back then. His bio here says his hair turned white as the result of stress as an underwater demolition expert with the Navy during the war. I also knew that he hadn't done any movies between the time he enlisted and the early 50s -- nothing postwar until around 1954 or so. I wonder what he was up to in the interim? Doing ads for Touch of Gray or whatever that men's hair-coloring stuff is called?

Downey would be a good Mason, I think, but yes, RB will always be PM for me.

I understand that after law school DA Ham Burger clerked for Justice Felix Frankfurter. But, shades of his later losses to Mason, he was let go because he couldn't cut the mustard. Always playing catch-up.

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[–] Big G-2 13 years ago

I started cataloging my collection in Microsoft Access back in the day, and I'm still using it! Problem however is space. I still have several bootleg VHS', but the minute one of them becomes available on DVD, I can replace that old video which does give me a little more space (a good recent example was THE COLOSSUS OF NEW YORK).

And I can't imagine Bill Hopper with dark hair. I never had that image. I met his 20 MILLION MILES TO EARTH co-star Joan Taylor, and she said that Bill Hopper was a true gentleman. It is sad that he passed away when he was only in his mid 50s (same with his PM co-star William Talman, Mr. Burger himself, due to years of smoking).

And you make a great point about TCM not airing GOJIRA on Sunday nights. I recall they showed the wild and fun GOKE, THE BODY SNATCHER FROM HELL in its subtitled form (and I've only seen that movie dubbed). But perhaps you are right and they might do it when the Criterion version comes out.

Hey, we've directed this thread away from politics. I don't mind that one bit!

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

Oh, I make no doubt Mr. Hopper was a gentleman, just not a very good actor. The former is more important anyway. He died of pneumonia in 1970 at 54, I believe following a stroke -- very young for whatever reason. His mom was, of course, Miss Hedda -- an unbridled reactionary and, in the opinion of most in Hollywood, an untalented woman of considerable stupidity, viciousness and vindictiveness.

There! Politics.

William Talman died of lung cancer brought on by many years of very heavy smoking. In the months before his death in 1968 at 53, he appeared in a TV ad in which he showed his wife and children, said he had lost a lot of cases on TV but didn't want to lose his family, but that now he was battling lung cancer, and urging people not to smoke, or to quit, now. It was very sad and affecting, and (I think) effective. Sadly, he died not long afterwards.

Geez, I thought you'd appreciate my Ham Burger joke!

But on the "Big G" (I finally figured it out!) subject, sort of, while Raymond Burr had GKOTM and Godzilla 1985, and William Hopper had 20 Million Miles to Earth, The Deadly Mantis and (let us not forget) Conquest of Space, Barbara Hale had The Giant Spider Invasion. Hey, it's a living. As Ray Burr said, when asked why after all his TV success and money he agreed to do 1985, "I sort of like Godzilla." God(zilla) bless 'im!

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[–] Big G-2 13 years ago

Yes, I've heard the exact same things about good ole Hedda Hopper as well (and pretty much many agreed with those assessments).

Geez, I thought you'd appreciate my Ham Burger joke!

Some things are best left with no comment. Actually, it was rather clever!

You look at who were guest stars on PERRY MASON, and both Fay Wray and Robert Armstrong made numerous appearances. I wonder if he ever had any Godzilla-Kong discussions with them?

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

Probably along the lines of, "Hey! I wonder if anyone will be silly enough to make a movie where King Kong meets Godzilla?"

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[–] PillowRock 13 years ago

Of course, it could be argued that, among the Perry Mason-ites, the best list of theatrical movie titles as onscreen credits didn't belong to any of the actors in the series (and that's certainly true for the "best list of movie co-stars"). Mason producer Gail Patrick had significant on screen roles in such things as My Man Godfrey (with William Powell and Carole Lombard), Stage Door (with Kate Hepburn, Ginger Rogers, Adolphe Menjou, Eve Arden, Lucille Ball, and Ann Miller), and My Favorite Wife (with Cary Grant, Irene Dunne, and Randolph Scott).

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[–] Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La 11 years ago

Really enjoyed this thread. Very informative!!!

Under new management!

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[–] hobnob53 11 years ago

As one of the participants, thanks! I like the deletions myself.

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[–] Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La 11 years ago

The deletions are telling because someone backed away from their comments?

I've often groused about the subsequent Gojira/Godzilla movies lack of currency with their own faux-political beginnings. I also felt (rightly or wrongly) that the original studio didn't REALLY want to take ownership of just what the movie meant or was SUPPOSED to mean given the close time proximity to the release of the film and the end of WWII.

Now that so many years have passed what Godzilla has evolved to in Japan and outside of Japan is a mystery beyond the costume.

The Big "G" has no soul.

If the re-incarnation of Godzilla would approach that topic or even anything similar I think it would be a winner. Does it matter if the intended audience(s) GET that. For me the answer is no. Just by placing that kind of weight within the story gives Godzilla presence.

As much as Godzilla is a force of nature he is also an "Event".

Under new management!

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[–] hobnob53 11 years ago

The deletions were made by an administrator because of the posters' intemperate remarks.

Toho found that the series, and other sci-fi films, were a gold mine for them in the 50s, 60s and beyond, not only in Japan but even more so abroad, hence the reason they backed away from any explicitly political comment after Gojira. (Although Mothra had some thinly-disguised anti-American aspects to it.) Even the first sequel, Godzilla Raids Again, was devoid of any larger meaning than being a monster movie, and it came out well before the original had ever been shown outside Japan. It was commerical considerations, nothing more.

One reason the original film met with such huge success when it was finally released in the West in 2004 was that audiences discovered that it was very different and deeper than the westernized version with Raymond Burr, which until that time was the only version available outside Japan.

I'm not concerned with yet another reincarnation of Godzilla. There have been at least three such reincarnations in the past and all are different. Godzilla 2000 sought to recapture some of the dark tone of the original, but we shouldn't expect some sort of repeat of the original, which is a unique landmark whose tone and image cannot be duplicated. Each film must stand on its own merits, and not be judged as to how it stands up against the original, since in those terms every Godzilla film will come up short.

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[–] Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La 11 years ago

Another point I'm raising is that Godzilla is a way to tell A story but The Big G has become in recent re-incarnations THE story which is why I believe it has never been able to really transcend to a larger audience beyond his vaudevillian days post 1954.

Godzilla needs a reason, a theme or a worthy adversary and then it becomes more about his adversary than it does about man, or about nature or about man's place with nature, or about man and war, etc, etc.

I do also believe that each film should stand on their own and they do. I own most and I have shared them with my kids. They have the disadvantage though of viewing the films out of context to the times and the films then to them become JUST films out of context.

About 13 years ago I attempted to create a Halloween moment for my kids so I bought the movie Them and we hunkered down to watch. I was harkening back to when I was a kid and saw that movie during something called "Creature Features" and remembered watching that in a mixture of awe and being scared.

My kids first comment was they thought the TV or the movie was broken because the color didn't work. (Black and white film and they were 5 & 6 at the time.)

From that point on they were taken out of the moment.

A Godzilla for the ages is what the original version was. I think that moment is now lost and will only be available again as a "Teaching Moment".

Under new management!

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[–] hobnob53 11 years ago

I see your points and generally concur. But I'm not sure the "Godzilla for the ages", which you so aptly call the '54 film, is of a moment that is lost and is only available now as a "teaching moment".

The moment may be past but it is not lost -- provided we educate succeeding generations about the past. (Something which, unhappily, we don't do well any longer, witness the ignorance of history of the last couple of generations at least.) Even then, the moment remains, an ineradicable part of history.

Put it this way -- the 1954 Gojira couldn't be "for the ages" and still be somehow lost, or relegated only to the status of a teaching moment. If it's for the ages, and I agree it is, then by definition it's with us always. If some people don't want it or get it, it's their loss.

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

This from David Henschel, imdb's own schizoid psychopath with many imdb identities. :) (Can hardly wait to see you answer with the womyn means lez ID next!)

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

I was just about to come to Eric's defense but first stopped to answer a direct reply to me above from Big-G. When I came back, voila!, Eric had beaten me to it. As in Gojira, the Self-Defense Force is the most appropriate one!

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

Thanks, hob. Mr. David Henschel has been a real piece of work at this place for quite a few years. There are a large number of aliases he operates under, and you can find many a place that consists of "conversations" among his various alter egos (he's even heisted my name with fake posts on a number of occasions). I leave it to others to figure out what that means about him but suffice to say it would make for a rather amusingly pathetic picture!

Best to you as always!

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[–] hobnob53 13 years ago

Hey, we discuss enough amusingly pathetic pictures around here without making up any new ones!

Too bad the B&N 50% sale won't be around for G's Criterion debut in January, or that you can't pre-order at that price. Talk about a pathetic picture, sans amusement.

Until later, my good friend.

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

BTW, hob, did you get the new Blu-Ray of "Destroy All Monsters" okay? Amazon ran out of stock fast and I got a delay notice until the 10th.

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

Is the entire thing. :)

Top that one, Cindy/Same Sex/Womyn Means Lez/Suzanne Histo/ etc. etc. etc. ;)

Give my regards to Ventura Boulevard.....:D

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[–] Eric-62-2 13 years ago

A wild Henschel blast from the past! (In the days when he wasn't ashamed of his own identity. Lord, I wonder what those Virginia Commonwealth Alum feel like when they think of him?) :D

http://web.archive.org/web/20041106221932/http://www.netsys.com/ietf/1993/1296.html

Give my regards to Ventura Boulevard!

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[–] Hotwyre6 13 years ago

I never felt like the film held the country of Nippon blameless for anything. I interpreted Gojira as fulfilling multiple roles. In addition to the repercussions of the atomic age, I think Gojira represented a "just deserts" metaphor as well, involving an unstoppable enemy that the actions of their own countrymen awakened. It sort of spreads out the blame, for lack of a better phrase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFPlpAT84g&feature=related

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[–] cameron3482 12 years ago

Does anyone know if the makers of "Godzilla" were aware of the atrocities committed by their own government before and during the war and,if so, to what extent was their knowledge? It would seem that in that society, as in Nazi Germany, much was probably withheld from the general population that was either disturbing or disruptive of the war effort (i.e. battlefield defeats). What goes around, comes around. Why does the Turkish government to this day deny or refuse to apologize for their genocide of the Armenians during WWI? Why does our own Pres. Obama not acknowledge such as genocide? Why don't (and I only speak of N.Y.C. public schools that I attended in the 1970's) they teach THIS in high school? I only found out of my own accord by reading a book on WWI.

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[–] StoneGriffin 12 years ago

So you blame small Japanese Children for the actions of their previous government? Interesting. I suppose you think the slaughter of small GERMAN kids is okay too, being that they are related to the Third Reich. I get it :D

Dr. Kila Marr was right. Kill the Crystalline Entity.

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[–] Fanboyz87 12 years ago

The most It's mostly about Japan being punished for their societal crimes.
Godzilla represents the evil they did but refuse to face.

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[–] Yorick-6 12 years ago

The funny thing about about people saying "well, the civilians deserved what happened to them because of the evil things their government did" are using the same mentality that took hold of Imperial Japan.

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[–] StoneGriffin 12 years ago

Also our military today doesn't hold that viewpoint. So I suppose that our military has evolved far past the 'barbarism' of many of IMDB's posters I guess. Collateral damage of civilians and particularly children, is actively avoided, not just dismissed with a shrug.

As for WW2, Those were different days. I pointed out (for example) that despite the evil of the Nazis, I would be horrified at the deaths of so many German children.

I'm surprised that some folks find the killing of children, even those of the enemy as acceptable.

Sure it sometimes happens, but I know for a fact that the deaths of innocents really affect our people in uniform. They hate it when it happens. It's a tragedy to them. Which makes our men/women in uniform far more civilized that a lot of civilian folks......

Dr. Kila Marr was right. Kill the Crystalline Entity.

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[–] Fanboyz87 12 years ago

If you go to war on a country, you must break them.
Kill soldiers, civilians, children- kill them till they surrender.

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[–] jackinthehood123 12 years ago

You bring up some good points. When most people think of the a bomb when they think about the effects of war. I personally found it odd how countries can get along just a few years after they finished fighting eachother. The thing about the a bomb was the fact that it not only killed millions, it wiped out an entire city and the radiation killed many afterword. It seems that in the messed up logic of the world, violence can only be stopped with even more violence.

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[–] ezh_1999 11 years ago

Don't you realize the "poor us" attitude in Gojira wasn't just for Japan. It was for humanity as a whole. We invented a weapon that could wipe ourselves off the earth. That is the true terror of Gojira, it wasn't an anti-American film, it was an anti-nuclear film.

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[–] ciarandino 11 years ago

Agreed ezh 1999. The film is an anti nuclear movie, not anti-US.

OP, though Gojira did borrow heavily from beast from 20, 000 fathoms, it is from a ripoff and is a superior film in my opinion, as much as I love the beast from 20, 000 fathoms. Also, lets face it, though Japan committed war crimes during WWII, the atomic bombs were a tragedy, and this film is simply a statement on how terrible a thing the A-bomb is.

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[–] BuddyLove63 10 years ago

Don't you realize the "poor us" attitude in Gojira wasn't just for Japan.

Yes it was. It was self pity. It made made in Japan for the Japanese. It was never meant to be a movie for 'the world'. Even today Japan doesn't truly recognise what it inflicted on others during the 1937-1945 era. Gojira is nauseatingly full of self pity for Japan. It's incredible that it came out less than a decade after the Japanese committed horrendous and far worse war crimes all over Asia than the A-bombs.

it wasn't an anti-American film,

Didn't say it was an anti American film. I said it was a self pitying film. Imagine if the Germans had come out with a similar self pitying poor us film at the same time? But you know what? They didn't. They took full responsibility for what they unleashed and they still (amazingly) feel guilty about it today. The Japanese do not and never did.

Gojira was a self pitying "poor us" movie, made for the Japanese public to wallow in. It is typical of the Japanese mindset of the time where feeling sorry for themselves rather than addressing and recognising what they did to others overrode everything else.

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